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[SC2B] Missing the Point

Forum Index > News
198 CommentsPost a Reply
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[SC2B] Missing the Point

Text byDaigomi
March 16th, 2010 04:21 GMT

Everyone agrees that something needs to be done about the lack of a higher ground advantage. What people do not agree about is what exactly needs to be done, and how Blizzard can go about adding positional depth to Starcraft 2. The purpose for me in this article is to clear up some of the confusion regarding randomness in Starcraft and Starcraft 2, hopefully leading to more constructive discussions.

Note: All the examples used will be in Starcraft 1 terms. This is because I am more comfortable with these terms, and most of you have more experience with the units and ideas in Starcraft 1, making the examples easier to understand. However, these examples should be just as applicable to Starcraft 2.

The Issue

Why should there be a higher ground advantage? Without higher ground advantage, the player with the bigger army will almost always win the battle, as there are very few tactical opportunities for the player with the smaller army. What this means is that unit production can never be compromised in favor of other goals like teching or expanding. While teching and expanding does occur in Starcraft 2 right now, it is only viable when it has no significant impact on unit production. This leads to a very linear game development, where both players need to mass armies in order to stay in the game. By giving the defender a higher ground advantage, the defender can choose to forgo unit production in order to get an extra expansion or to get faster tech.

A second reason why there should be a higher ground advantage has to do with tactics. With higher ground advantage, a smaller army can outmaneuver and defeat a much larger army with superior combat tactics that utilizes the higher ground advantage. It also provides the losing player in a battle with a position to retreat to, which makes it less likely that games will be decided by the first big battle. Finally, it prevents the game from turning into a macro competition where large armies clash in the middle of the map to decide each match. When a battle can be decided by who holds the higher ground, tactics such as positioning and deciding when to attack become more important and players have more tactical options available to them.


Position is should be everything.

The Suggestion

If chance will have me king, why, chance may crown me
- Macbeth, Act I - Scene III


The suggestion being examined is straightforward. When units attack from lower ground to higher ground, they should have a certain chance to miss. What this chance should be is up for discussion, but I feel that, combined with the current sight mechanic where lower ground units cannot attack higher ground units without vision of the high ground, a 25% miss chance would be a sufficient higher ground advantage.

The Misconceptions

The following is a list of misconceptions people hold regarding the miss-dynamic:
    1. It is the same as damage reduction, just worse.
    2. You can miss ten shots in a row.
    3. A bit of bad luck will cost you the game.
    4. Having a game that is not perfectly predictable is bad.
    5. Professional players would prefer no miss chance.
    6. It makes the game random.

Some of you have all these misconceptions, while others have only a few. In the end, they are all almost entirely wrong.

It is the same as damage reduction, just worse.
Whether the miss-dynamic is better or worse than damage reduction remains to be seen. However, it is definitely not the same as damage reduction, even on average. Here is a scenario which was given in a previous news post which illustrates how they differ.

Miss Chance and Damage Reduction

A tank does 35 damage a shot, marines have 40hp.

Normal: Two shots kill a marine.

50% miss: Four shots kill a marine (on average).
50% less damage: Three shots kill a marine (17.5 * 3 = 52.5).

33% miss: Three shots kill a marine (on average).
33% less damage: Two shots kill a marine (23 * 2 = 46).

Because units do more damage than is needed, damage reduction can have little to no impact on the number of shots required to kill a unit. On the other hand, with the miss-dynamic, the number of shots required to kill a unit increases proportionately with the chance to miss. This makes it easier to balance the miss-dynamic than the damage-reduction dynamic.

You can miss ten shots in a row.
If the miss chance of a single shot is 25%, then the chances of missing 10 shots in a row is roughly 0.0001%, or one in a million. To put this into context, if you buy fifteen lottery tickets, you have a better chance of winning the lottery than missing 10 shots in a row. The odds start looking a bit better at five shots in a row, which has a roughly one in a thousand chance of occurring. So it is conceivable that, over the course of a few games, you will at some point have five dragoons attacking who all miss the same shot. Will five dragoons missing the same shot be game changing? Probably not, as we will see in the next misconception.

A bit of bad luck will cost you the game.
You are fighting the most important fight of the game, you miss a few shots, and suddenly your entire army is destroyed and you lose the game. This is everybody's biggest fear, leading to one of the most pervasive misconceptions, that a bit of bad luck can determine a game. It seems logical too: In Starcraft, small things can be very important, so surely missing multiple shots in a row (or hitting them) can have a game changing impact?

Let's take a look at a poker analogy. In poker it often occurs that one player holds the best hand, but that there is a small chance that the other player can make a winning hand on the final card. When the leading player is all-in, a bad card can knock him out of a tournament or lose him a lot of money. This is the kind of unpredictability that most Starcraft players want to avoid. The difference between these two situations, however, is that Starcraft players are never "all-in." In a battle between 12 dragoons and 6 siege tanks, a minimum of 120 shots will need to be fired to kill all the units. That means that each shot carries very little weight on its own. It is like a poker player that loses 1% of his stack to a bad beat. It's annoying, but not game changing, and if the player plays 100 hands, chances are he will make the money back up.

A second important factor is that a player can cut his losses in Starcraft. In poker, things often go wrong on the last card, and a player loses everything. Starcraft does not work this way. If Player A misses five shots in a row, then he has the opportunity to cut his losses and run (hopefully to high ground). If the battle turns against a player, he can always retreat, minimizing his losses. So the effects of bad luck, which are small to begin with, can be further minimized by retreating.

People have pointed out that retreating is more difficult in SC2. However, retreating from an army that is on a different level is unlikely to be a problem as there are chokes and ledges for the attacker to contend with.

Does this mean that bad luck is unlikely to ever cost a game? No. There is one type of game where luck can have an impact; a situation where a single unnecessary death can decide a game: Cheese. When going for a Dragoon break against Terran, getting a lucky few hits onto the higher ground can destroy a tank unexpectedly, while missing a few shots can end the cheese and leave the attacker at a large disadvantage. The question is, is it a bad thing that there is an element of luck involved in cheesing? The answer is an easy no: without luck, cheese would not be possible. If cheese could be predicted perfectly, it would either always work or not work at all, making it either game-ruining or useless. Unpredictability is both the strength and the weakness of cheese, and having a lucky shot hit, or an unlucky shot miss, is what cheese is all about.

Having a game that is not perfectly predictable is bad.
Bad for who or what? It is definitely not bad for the spectators. Few things in Starcraft are more epic than watching a mine dissolve in a puddle of blue goo, or seeing a scarab come so close to obliterating a stream of peons before harmlessly fizzling out. Unpredictability makes professional gaming more exciting for another reason too: If games were decided purely on skill, Flash and Jaedong would be expected to win all their games and there would be no enjoyment in watching them play. However, when there is a bit of unpredictability, then upsets can happen, making the games more exciting to watch for everyone.


Will it? Won't it? The Broodwar Protoss user's eternal dilemma.

Unpredictability in battles is definitely not bad for the depth of the game either. The more unpredictable a battle is, the more decisions a player needs to make. When there is a fixed damage reduction, the only decision players need to make is "Will I win this battle if I attack now?" to which the answer will be either yes or no. If there is an unpredictable element, the player needs to constantly answer the following questions "Am I winning the battle?" "Are my chances to win good enough to persevere?" "Should I retreat, or wait a bit before retreating?". Even the question of whether to attack or not is more complex "I should win the battle, but is it worth taking the risk now?" or, "I probably won't win this battle, but is gambling in the hopes of getting lucky my best chance at winning the game?." As such, unpredictability (in moderation) in battles is not bad for the depth of the game.

The only thing that unpredictability could harm is the players themselves, which leads us to the fifth misconception...

Professional players would prefer no miss chance.
The idea here is that no professional player would like to have unpredictability in their chosen career. Unfortunately, almost every sport in the world has unpredictability included, from a strong wind on a day of golf to the deflected goal in soccer. All sports have unpredictable factors included, and they are simply part of the job description. In fact, the ability to cope with unpredictable factors is often what distinguishes champions from average players. This point is supported by the fact that many of the best Starcraft players have stated that they would prefer the miss-rate mechanic over a damage-reduction mechanic.

It makes the game random.
All of the previous misconceptions can be condensed into one belief: Adding a miss-chance will make the game random. However, as I have shown here, these misconceptions are just that: Misconceptions.

Adding a 25% miss-rate will not turn SC2 into a coin-flip. The chances of game-changing random things happening are minute due to the size of the sample. When game-changing things do happen, they are a good thing, because they allow cheese to be viable. When non-critical cases of misfortune occur, they are also a good thing, because they reward players who are better at reading the game, making quick choices, and playing intelligently. The cost of these non-critical cases of misfortune is also relatively low.

In the end, the game would be anything but random. The higher ground mechanic would have a small impact on the predictability of the game, the amount of unpredictability it adds will be small, and the lack of predictability can be controlled by the players.

The Pros and Cons

The advantages of having a miss-dynamic have already been mentioned, but they can be summarized as:
    1. All higher ground advantages
    2. Greater game-depth
    3. More exciting
    4. Allow cheese
    5. Easier to balance

The disadvantages have also been mentioned and they are:
    1. More difficult to make decisions
    2. Less predictable
    3. Allow cheese

The disadvantages are primarily disadvantages on a lower level. Difficulty to make decisions can lead to indecisiveness in low level games. Allowing cheese can lead to "SC2 is all about cheesing!!!" blogs. Having the game be less predictable can lead to players losing the game because they fail to adjust their strategy during the battle. However, for the exact reason these disadvantages have a detrimental effect on lower levels, they have a positive effect on the higher levels.

The Alternatives

As the point of this article is to encourage informed discussion, the alternatives should be examined briefly. To me, there seem to be three viable alternatives: damage reduction, range reduction, and attack-speed reduction.

Damage reduction
The most common alternative is a direct damage reduction. The advantage of damage reduction is that it takes the probabilities out of the equation and simplifies the game slightly. The disadvantage of damage reduction is that it is harder to balance, and it decreases the depth of the game a bit.

The biggest problem with damage reduction is definitely the balancing. With a direct damage reduction, certain units will remain almost fully efficient against higher ground, while others will feel the full force of a 25% damage reduction. It could even be impossible to balance, depending on how the armor is calculated. If the armor reduction is effected after the higher-ground reduction, then armor upgrades will be imbalanced in defensive positions.

Range reduction
This is the alternative I like the least. It is exactly as unpredictable as the current sight mechanic: In certain situations the range reduction will nullify an entire attack while in other situations it will have no effect. For example, Dragoons attacking marines on higher ground will have no effect. The dragoons will still be able to hit the marines, even with their range decreased. On the other hand, dragoons attacking a tank on higher ground will be completely unable to overcome the two range difference, stopping the attack in its tracks.

The advantage of range reduction is that no scaling takes place, it will give players more opportunities to micro their units, and it would lead to interesting higher ground battles. The disadvantage is that it would either be incredibly strong, or incredibly weak, depending on the situation and the units.

Speed reduction
The most interesting alternative is an attack speed reduction. The advantage of an attack speed reduction is that the damage done decreases proportionately with the size of the speed reduction, making it easier to balance. If units take twice as long to shoot, the enemy unit will take twice as long to die. Other than the better scaling, its advantages are very similar to those of damage reduction: It takes probabilities out of the game and leads to certain decisions being easier to make.

There are two disadvantages with speed reduction, one old and one new: The first disadvantage is that, just like any non-miss system, it lowers the game depth a bit. The other disadvantage is that it is less logical to the average gamer than a damage reduction or miss-chance is. This might be because we are not used to the concept, but the idea that marines will suddenly start attacking more slowly when the enemy units get to higher ground seems strange to me. It makes the solution feel artificial, like a solution to a problem rather than a natural part of the game.

The Discussion

From the beginning of the article, the point was not to prescribe a solution, but to allow you to come to an informed decision on your own. All four options can be implemented, and all four would be an improvement to an already good game. The question is, which option will be the biggest improvement?


This post was made by the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Coverage Team. For more of TL's coverage, please visit the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Beta Page.
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Moderator
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 04:44:06
March 16 2010 04:26 GMT
#2
Nice job Daigomi. I love the way the problem is laid out, and the way the various solutions are presented. I think it is obvious by playing the beta that simply having vision is not a good enough advantage for the high ground / low ground. Something else has to come into play in order for the features of the map to have more impact. Without it, map design is less important, and maps are one reason BW lasted as long as it has.

Here is another post from this thread on the same issue that I agree with.

On March 05 2010 02:53 DJEtterStyle wrote:
I'd take things a step further. The high ground mechanic needs to be changed -- absolutely, and for me to agree so strongly with InControl is a bit jarring -- but in general, SC2 lacks the all-important defender's advantage you see in pretty much all strategy games. Static defense is too weak, buildings fall too quickly, unit AI and bunching are so good that choke points and ramps have little tactical significance, and too few units have abilities that reward a defensive posture, with the most obvious example being the siege tank. Lurkers and spider mines, reavers and high templar added a major tactical element to SC1 because of their distinct lack of mobility.

We're seeing Starcraft 2 reduced to a lot of one-base play because it only takes the most minute of opportunities to win a game. A meaningful defender's advantage would open up a wealth of new, viable openings and make the game vastly more competitive and fun.

ModeratorGodfather
Umbrella
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Taiwan936 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 04:32:12
March 16 2010 04:30 GMT
#3
If range reduction is implemented, wouldn't the dragoons take extra hits while closing in on the high ground? If they had more range than marines, then they would take less hits closing in on the marines to hit them.
Bobo_XIII
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
United States429 Posts
March 16 2010 04:42 GMT
#4
Well said. I hope this is printed out and put on the walls of wherever it is Blizzard discusses balance issues and gameplay development because this puts the issue into focus very well.
There's a hole in the world like a great black pit, and the vermin of the world inhabit it... and its morals aren't worth what a pig could spit, and it goes by the name of Reddit.
Zona
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
40426 Posts
March 16 2010 04:43 GMT
#5
I like your entire article a lot and agree with all of it. So I don't need to quote parts of it and respond =P
"If you try responding to those absurd posts every day, you become more damaged. So I pay no attention to them at all." Jung Myung Hoon (aka Fantasy), as translated by Kimoleon
TurboT
Profile Joined January 2010
Germany33 Posts
March 16 2010 04:47 GMT
#6
I think the attack speed reduction could be explained logically. A marine trying to hit a target on a cliff has to "aim" a bit longer (hence the reduction in speed).
On April 12 2010 15:09 Manifesto7 wrote: To not GG is to not respect the art.
jonnyp
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States415 Posts
March 16 2010 04:47 GMT
#7
Awesome article, very well spoken. Personally, I think the percent miss chance is the way to go, it adds a strategic element that makes sense in the context of the game as well as adding excitement. Also, it just makes more sense than any of the other options.

That said, any of these fixes would be better than the current implementation.
The number of years it takes for the Internet to move past anything is way, way over 9000.
professorjoak
Profile Joined July 2008
318 Posts
March 16 2010 04:48 GMT
#8
Great analysis. "Randomness" doesn't hurt a game as long as the probability distributions are made transparent to all players. If probabilistic information increases the number of intelligent decisions that must be made, it's a good dynamic.
"The different branches of Arithmetic -- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision." --Lewis Carroll
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
March 16 2010 04:55 GMT
#9
This is really amazing. I can contribute my thoughts but I doubt it will be heard.

Giving a 25% chance to miss with a high ground advantage, to me, does not make the game random at all. Getting the high ground advantage isn't a matter of "oh now lets throw things COMPETELY OUT OF WHACK WITH MY HIGH GROUND ADVANTAGE." Getting a high ground advantage is like playing a risk, and you can be rewarded for taking that risk.

The 25% chance may be a bit random, but I feel the decision making implemented is now overcomes any randomness that is inherent within that miss percentage.

I hope that makes sense...basically:
The decision making and meta-game possibilities with a 25% miss chance completely compensates for any hint of randomness that may occur in the game.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
G3nXsiS
Profile Joined July 2009
United States656 Posts
March 16 2010 04:57 GMT
#10
Honestly I do think that there should be a high ground advantage. It makes the game much more exciting as the person with the bigger army is not always going to win. As for making the game random and having bad luck, that really depends on the mapmaker.

A mapmaker can choose where he wants to put high grounds and a good one will make sure its balanced for everyone.
Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
March 16 2010 04:58 GMT
#11
Originally I favored damage reduction but after I thought about it I came to the conclusion that some units would suffer basically no penalty. After that I came to prefer the decreased attack rate option. Now, however, I think I'm more in favor of a % mischance.

Either way I'm pessimistic and I don't think Blizzard is going to implement anything.
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
March 16 2010 05:01 GMT
#12
On March 16 2010 13:57 G3nXsiS wrote:
Honestly I do think that there should be a high ground advantage. It makes the game much more exciting as the person with the bigger army is not always going to win. As for making the game random and having bad luck, that really depends on the mapmaker.

A mapmaker can choose where he wants to put high grounds and a good one will make sure its balanced for everyone.



Technically there is a "high ground advantage," because you need vision to see up a cliff in order to attack units. The units on a cliff can see down, but the units below a cliff cannot see up. If you get vision, you get a 100% hit chance against the units on the cliff.

I think the argument is not about a high ground advantage, but about a miss chance and randomness factor that should be reimplemented with a high ground advantage. The exchange is that you don't need vision to fire up a cliff.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Ronald_McD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada807 Posts
March 16 2010 05:02 GMT
#13
I like randomness. Not LOTS of random, but a little bit of random. It makes things a lot more interesting. There's no point in watching a game where you automatically know who's going to win and who's going to lose, no matter what.

StarCraft 1 had a great high ground advantage. I've hated SC2's high ground line of sight bullshit right from the start.

I don't think SC2 is a terrible game, but I also don't think a simple high ground mechanic would be enough to fix it. It would be a step in the right direction. They would change a lot of the game to reflect the change. I would also like to see other small random glitchy things. Not like "bring vulturez back!!!1" but something new altogether.

I hope somebody posts something like this on the Blizz boards.
FUCKING GAY LAGS
Schismotive
Profile Joined March 2009
United States60 Posts
March 16 2010 05:08 GMT
#14
Even though SC2 seems pretty damn cool, I have to admit that this is a pretty solid argument, and that Blizzard should think twice about screwing up the potential it has.
Doing to blue what blue does to you.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 05:27:01
March 16 2010 05:14 GMT
#15
The assumption that a universal ground mechanic change has an equal impact on all units is wrong. The whole game balance would shift. I think the game is too far in development at this point where making this change is just unrealistic.

I duno. I can see what the article is saying, but I view this less as problems and more as just differences from the original game. I can definitely see the value of more strategic positioning, teching, etc. But that happens at the sacrifice of a fast paced, gorilla warfare style of play.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
March 16 2010 05:14 GMT
#16
On March 16 2010 14:01 shindigs wrote:
Technically there is a "high ground advantage," because you need vision to see up a cliff in order to attack units. The units on a cliff can see down, but the units below a cliff cannot see up. If you get vision, you get a 100% hit chance against the units on the cliff.


This becomes progressively less of an issue the further into the game you go. Also the current system makes wide ramp high ground "plateaus" tactically worthless. Currently the high ground is just a mix of a choke-point (small ramp) with LOS blockers (high grass).

It takes a lot of tactical depth out of the game.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
March 16 2010 05:17 GMT
#17
There's some problems with your analysis of the whole miss chance mechanic. Namely, you don't mention the law of large numbers. What this means in a nutshell:

If you have, say, 10 hydras shooting into higher ground (with miss chance), it's extremely unlikely that their overall damage will deviate significantly from the average, so their damage output is almost as predictable as the one you'd get with damage reduction, cooldown increase, or other kinds of deterministic penalties.

If you have two vultures shooting into higher ground fighting against one vulture and two marines... suddenly, luck does play a large role in the outcome. Maybe the two vultures will hit their initial attacks and kill a marine right away (25% chance). Chances are that they won't kill the marine in one volley (75% chance). But maybe they won't kill the marine in two volleys either (31.25% chance). On average, they'll kill the marine in 2 volleys- but there's a pretty huge gameplay difference between killing the marine in one volley vs. killing it in 3+ volleys, and yet all of those outcomes have pretty significant chances of occurrence.

In these cases in which the law of large numbers doesn't apply, the variance of the damage output per volley (with miss chance) WILL be large, and CAN significantly affect the outcome of the game.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
March 16 2010 05:20 GMT
#18
On March 16 2010 13:21 Daigomi wrote:
Without higher ground advantage, the player with the bigger army will almost always win the battle, as there are very few tactical opportunities for the player with the smaller army. What this means is that unit production can never be compromised in favor of other goals like teching or expanding. While teching and expanding does occur in Starcraft 2 right now, it is only viable when it has no significant impact on unit production. This leads to a very linear game development, where both players need to mass armies in order to stay in the game. By giving the defender a higher ground advantage, the defender can choose to forgo unit production in order to get an extra expansion or to get faster tech.


Wouldn't that mean that this applies in Brood War maps that don't include high ground, like Judgment Day, or those that don't have any high ground between players, like Medusa? To speak nothing of maps with the starting locations on low ground like Byzantium?

Not that I disagree overall, but I really don't think Reaver Scarabs are a good example. There's nothing I find more annoying (when watching, I don't have the skills for it to matter when I'm playing) than seeing some Protoss player succeed in flying in a Reaver into an underdefended base and having it deal no damage because Scarabs are idiotic.
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7796 Posts
March 16 2010 05:22 GMT
#19
Thank God. I don't necessarily think miss % allows cheese to succeed or fail, but other than that I totally agree. Starcraft is a deeper game with miss percentages
Graham
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada1259 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 05:31:46
March 16 2010 05:27 GMT
#20
I completely agree that something needs to be done regarding high ground advantages.

One of the great things about SC1 was the ability to take a small group of units and some clever use of high ground/micro and decimate armies 3/4 times the size due to the game mechanics. However, now in SC2 you have a lot less micro currently available to an average player as well as no high ground mechanics, which ends up resulting in simply put - "the biggest army wins".

On the bright side, theres still a lot of time 'till release and a lot of changes to be made!

edit: considered this afterwards, but also considering that static defense in SC2 is weaker than it was in SC1 it's a lot harder to survive against those initial pushes.
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