EPTTL Chess Match 4 - Page 95
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Malli
Germany138 Posts
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dtvu
Australia687 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I guess Ng5's trying for 16...Rg8 and start pushing his pawns forward My Vote 16.Re1 + Show Spoiler + develop the rook, attacks the e4 knight and removes the threat of Ba6. Also waiting to see what Ng5's intentions are after 15...gxf | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
if our intention is to trade knights with 17. Nxe4, black can always play 16. ... f5 or 16. ... Bb7, though that is really unlikely compared to moving the pawn up :p. 16. Re1 basically only removes that threat of Ba6, but I guess its better than anything else we can do right now. How is 16. b4 for a move? Allows us to develop our bishop and rook, as well as our knight to some extent. If black plays 16... Ba6, we can always just move our rook the next turn, or else trade because we still have our knight on d2. | ||
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dtvu
Australia687 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:35 GenesisX wrote: I wouldn't vote for 16. Re1 because + Show Spoiler + if our intention is to trade knights with 17. Nxe4, black can always play 16. ... f5 or 16. ... Bb7, though that is really unlikely compared to moving the pawn up :p. 16. Re1 basically only removes that threat of Ba6, but I guess its better than anything else we can do right now. How is 16. b4 for a move? Allows us to develop our bishop and rook, as well as our knight to some extent. If black plays 16... Ba6, we can always just move our rook the next turn, or else trade because we still have our knight on d2. + Show Spoiler + After 16. Re1, if Black plays 16... f5, then 17. Ne5+ for 16... Bb7, we are free to play 17. Nb3, going for check 18. Nc5 Both will allow us to disentangle our knights and even put it in a position of great threat on c5 or e5 | ||
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wuBu
United States83 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + My reasoning is that it develops the rook with an attack to the knight. Sorry I don't have any good analysis. School is picking up so I've been kinda busy T.T | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
Same reasons as others. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: I'm gonna vote for 15. exf6ep. + Show Spoiler + Every other move looks too passive, and I can't find one that is worthwhile. Playing b4 immediately can still be met with a5. Also, if we don't take the pawn immediately, we resign the possibility of forcing the dxe4 capture, removing the black pawn from the c4 square which will be very useful for our knight. We should also be willing to open up the position a little more. Although black has the two bishops, his king is slightly vulnerable in the center while ours is protected. After playing en passant, it would certainly be a mistake to recapture with the knight. That would reduce the cramp on our position, diminish the strength of the knight, and allow us to grab the beautiful knight outpost on e5. It is certainly possible for him to recapture with the bishop, but it would probably be better to retake with the g-pawn, because this would both prevent the move Ne5 completely, and allow the move f5 in the future, to defend the e4 square. Otherwise, we can trade knights and perhaps win the isolated pawn down the line. I would say we should certainly capture the knight on e4 after this pawn trade. That will reduce the cramp on our position and offer up the square c4 for our knight, allowing moves such as Ne5. If black plays Ba6 to prevent such a move, it helps us again because we can then play b4 safely and have a winning position. So here is what I am advocating/predicting here: 15. exf6ep gxf6 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Nd2 f5 with perhaps Re1 or Nc4 to follow. If black plays 17. ... Ba6 first, we simply play 18. Re1. After black defends the pawn with 18. ... f5, we have the powerful move 19. b4. Once again I predict Ng5's move  I'm gonna follow up with the analysis above and vote 16. Nxe4 + Show Spoiler + The primary reason for choosing this is to force blacks pawn on d4 from it's square, which will advance and weaken his pawn structure in my opinion, giving us more space and the square c4 for out knight to hop into. Playing Nc4 here I think is critical to the position. The only way for black to prevent that would be to play Ba6, which would merely hem in his a-pawn and allow us to play b4 with a very good game. I can't find any problems with Re1 so I will say that seems to be a solid move as well. With more analysis I might be willing to change my vote later. b4 doesn't seem good at all... | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I believe the main issue with this line is the threat of Ba6 after a5, but this is no longer a viable option for black, i.e. 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Re1 then Black has 3 options + Show Spoiler [18...f5] + 18...f5 19. Ne5+ Ke8 (Kd6/8 is a fork, Ke6 is the same result as Ke8) 20. Nc6 Rb7 21. Nxe7 Kxe7 f3 wins material. + Show Spoiler [18...Bb7] + Bb7 is bad because of 19. Nh4 c5 20. Nf5 Bf8 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Rb1 wins material either by 22...cxd4 23. a6 or 22...Kc6 23. Rb6+ ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zY3WJ.gif) + Show Spoiler [Alternatives to 20...Bf8] + 20...Rhe8 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Bxe7 Rxe7 23. dxc5 and white is three pawns up. 20....Bd6 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Nxd6 Kxd6 23. Bf5 wins the exchange. + Show Spoiler [18...Nc3] + 18...Nc3 is probably black's best move in this situation. 19. Kh1 c5 20. Nf1 cxd4 21. Nxd4 Bc5 23. Be3 and white's position doesn't look too bad (in addition to being two pawns up). ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QOWVH.gif) In fact, I just noticed this. White has another option for 23, 23. Nf5 Bxf2 24. Re7+ Kd8 25. Bf4 Rc8 (Rb2 Bc7+ leads to mate) 26. Re6 wins the pawn back and leaves black hopeless. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hSTw6.gif) Since black can no longer play Ba6, I believe that b4 is a much more viable option now than before. Edit: fixed a notation. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 16. Re1 looks like a very strong move. It somewhat defeats the purpose of Ba6, as well as wins a pawn in the case Black doesn't react. Main Line: 16. Re1 Bb7 17. b4 (prevents c5 which seems to be black's major threat) ...Rhg8 and then white moves: + Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] + ...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6 + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5USXu.gif) looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?) + Show Spoiler [18. Nb3] + ...I'm having trouble finding a good response for black. 18...Nc3 looks good, but after Bf4 and Rac1 it is rather meaningless. 18...Ba6 (I'm starting to notice a common theme) leads to lines I posted earlier but with a tempi up for white, and since those lines were favorable for white, I can only suspect these ones will be too. 18...Bc6 is interesting. The idea being that it lets black gain some room on the queen side. 19. Be3 (Bf4 Rg4 21. Be3, so let's skip that move and just play Be3 directly--same for Bh6) Ba4 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5 + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aEo4N.gif) I honestly have no idea who is ahead at this point. White has the extra pawn and Black the Bishop Pair. I do, however, believe this is black's best response to Nb3. + Show Spoiler [18. Bb2] + ...Rg7 19. Nf1 Rbg8 20. Ne3 Nd6 21. Nd2 f5 22. f4 Ne4 23. Nf3 and black can't break through. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EEwCq.gif) Assuming white can hold and I didn't miss anything, it appears that white is very ahead. Another alternative line 18...Bd6 19. Nb3 Rbe8 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5 Bf4 looks bad for white. So instead let's play 20. Nh4 Ng5 21. Rxe8 (21. Nf4 Nc3+ wins the exchange) Kxe8 22. Nc5 (Nf4 leads to a literal draw or white a lost of material)...Bc8 doesn't look as good for white anymore either. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dT2Pg.gif) And that's all I got. On a side note, thanks Qrs for inspiring me to try to make my posts look neat and organized  | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
I don't have time to look in detail at all of the analysis for this move, and the moves that have been proposed so far all look to be solid and to have plans behind them, so for now I'll abstain. If I get a chance to go through the analysis before the vote closes, I may vote then. | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Looking at the position i see that our black bishop and our aRook are pretty useless right now because they are pretty much cut off. By playing Re1, black can answer with Nxd2. Now our only option is Nxd2 and our bishop & rook are trapped again. Also our knight cant jump to c4,e4 or b3 so we only can jump back which seems superslow. (edit: also f5 and g5 are blocked so we still cant go anywhere with our knight) If we take his Knight with our bishop he can play Rxb2 so we lose a pawn. Also now our a pawn is threatened by his bishop if we ever move our rook. I also dont like Nxe4 because then he takes with his pawn and we have to move our knight again (2 times! to d2 and after that c4 if he doesnt block it with Ba6) just seems kinda slow but at least our bishop can move so its better than Re1 so personally i would move b3 or b4. i really dont know whats better so i will vote for the same like mastergriggy did, his analysis looks good. Vote b4 | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
I think you're all overestimating the strength of 16. Re1. Black isn't going to defend his knight, he'll just move it away to d6. couple of variations: http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=741245 16.Re1 Nd6 17.Nf1 Nc4 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Nxa5 ( 19...Rb3 20.N1d2 Nxd2 21.Nxd2 Rd3 22.Nf3 ) 20.Bd2 Nb3 21.Rab1 Ba6 22.Bf4 Bxa3 23.Re3 Bc4 24.N1d2 Nxd2 25.Nxd2 Rxb1+ 26.Nxb1 Bb2; http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=741221 16.Re1 Nd6 17.b4 a5 18.Rb1 Nf5 19.Nb3 a4 20.Nc5+ Kc6 21.Bf4 http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=741250 16.Re1 Nxd2 17.Nxd2 c5 18.Nf3 Rb3 19.Rb1 Ba6 20.Bd2 Bd3 21.Re3 c4 22.Rbe1 Bd6 23.Bc3 umm yeah i just discovered the joys of pgn editors will be back shortly | ||
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lightman
United States731 Posts
b4 is good but only after Re1 as in: + Show Spoiler + Black can also 16...NxN 17 NxN Ba6 18 b4..... or 17 ...a5 18 Re3 Ba6 19 b4! with a promising position to free up our bishop and knight. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:20 lightman wrote: 16. Re1 b4 is good but only after Re1 as in: + Show Spoiler + Black can also 16...NxN 17 NxN Ba6 18 b4..... or 17 ...a5 18 Re3 Ba6 19 b4! with a promising position to free up our bishop and knight. b4 is fine right now. Take a look at my post here | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
I thought Re1 at first too, but after looking at it again b4 seems like the better option. | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
vote: 16. b4 + Show Spoiler + 16. Re1 doesn't really help us, it's essentially a waiting move because black can still 16. ...Bb7 if he wants to, or he could play c5 which forces us to move our d pawn. I'm a big fan of passed pawns, especially nearing closer to endgame. They essentially force the opponent to use some of his non-pawns to defend the passed pawn's advance. Sometimes this can even lead into an endgame where our pawn is keeping one of black's pieces stuck in place, as if he moves it we can simply d8=Q. (This is much further down the road.) If black plays 16. ...c5 then we really want to play b4 here. Well that's all for now, hopefully I have more time in two days, this is just going on 10 minutes or so. I analyzed + Show Spoiler + 16. Nxe4 Edit: also if we don't 16. b4, here's what could happen: + Show Spoiler + ...c5 17. dxc5 Bxc5 and our kind is under major threat. In this situation I would actually advocate 18. Kh1 but let's hope it doesn't get to that. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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