[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia - Page 72

On January 21 2014 22:05 Holyflare wrote:


You used a post from a player that has had 0 contribution to the game as a platform for you to further your paradigm of VE. Not only is that strange but you do not question HOW he could have those reads (something you absolutely should because how else do you learn about another player's mindset?) The only thing you question is his read on wave. You should absolutely not be happy when someone calls you or someone else town for no reasoning and should be questioning it as you have been questioning mostly everything for the entirety of the game.

---

As for the rest of the thread:





I don't understand why this conversation was ended around here. We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? This sentiment was echoed by hapa BUT THEN TOTALLY CONTRADICTED AS WELL.





I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty.

---

That being said the thing that stuck out to me the most was VE's posts and vote on Prome. I actually agree with much of what he has said and I do not get the motive behind happa's line of questioning.

Hapa mentioned:



Why do you assume that it is retroactive justification instead of new evidence coming to light after a troll vote? What he was saying made sense and prome's opening post seemed like it was pre-written before he even read any of the game. I'll get into this later when I have the time and get back but for now I'll leave you to talk about what i've said above.

On January 21 2014 23:07 Holyflare wrote:



Why Foolishness over sandroba? They have both posted nothing. Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today so why are you going to ignore the rest of what has happened on day 1 when your intentions are already set in stone?

On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote:


I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts.

I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read.

On January 23 2014 03:08 Holyflare wrote:
I don't get why people are picking up on me attacking hapa who "looked towny", he had contradictions in a thought process that I picked up on and questioned.

Either way, I apologise for my lack of playing this game. I fully expected to be able to contribute time but my circumstances changed on the day the game started and so each and every single one of my posts has been posted from my phone, I was just picking up on points that I thought were contradictary and the such, no "aggression" is intended it's just how I post (Hogwarts I got called out for being aggressive as scum so there is no way I would ever try and look like that in a game again as scum).

Either way, my initial read was on gonzaw being scummy because of his time allocation, that subsequently changed based on his responses and although I mention the repeated bastardisation and misconstruing of my posts that increasingly (as he kept doing it and still is) looks more and more like a tunneled towny and so I used my time to defend myself from him so as to divulge my thought processes and vindicate myself to the person that I think is towny (from the people that I have focused on). I thought hapa was looking scummy because of his contradictions but his response to me made me back off of that.

I can't delve into quotes and things like I normally would but please please look at when gonzaw posted that "case" (that I said was heavily misconstrued) on me. The responses that meekly followed that said "yeh, that's true" and "hmmm yeh I can see that" should be heavily scrutinised as they were, like was just said, not backed up by votes.

Like I said at the start, you shouldn't let people who get better later "sandroba AND foolishness (although he has posted now)" sit back, they should be entirely pressured. Sandroba even went so far as to get a good ++ (I think?) from foolishness??? despite his less than 1 page filter with nothing contributary in.


Either way, I've asked to be subbed out so have fun.

On January 25 2014 02:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like, I would contribute, but I've been told that my suspects are off limits so I'm kinda at a loss as to what I even CAN do to prove my innocence. Maybe a story?

On January 25 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
And I'm not even going to be around to be all "NAH GUYS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WE'RE BROTHERS!"

On January 25 2014 02:43 austinmcc wrote:
(1) A magical world in which Gonzaw is mod-confirmed Gonzaw. Once he is known red, what in his filter makes you smack his head and go "I should have seen this..."

On January 24 2014 07:13 gonzaw wrote:


Goddamit I forgot to sen....hmm, I think scum may try something weird tonight. Who knows!

On January 24 2014 06:26 Toadesstern wrote:

like I said, I'm reading. Time spent posting is time spent not reading right now...

But we can talk a little if you want, I spent the last hours and I'm getting a headache so I need something else to do for now or I'm going crazy. I read everything from the point I replaced in. From the people that seem to be worth looking into I really don't see foolishness being mafia.
As far as I've come, I liked his posts and agreed with most of it, I liked his thought process when he pointed it out and when he didn't I found myself knowing what he's getting at because I had the same idea when reading something.
VE is weird but I'd lean town on him so far. Town-VE is a man who likes to go on an adventure and posts like he doesn't give a crap. He posts weird, he posts stuff that makes people go "wat?" and all that kind of stuff. Mafia VE restrains himself more because he knows he has to and I'm not seeing that.
Not sure about Kita yet, he's all over the place.
WoS certainly the one I'd want lynched the most atm. Some stuff I didn't like about him.

So pretty much start from the bottom and work my way up.
Other than that I do have some beef with Hapa but he seems not to be an option right now due to votings so I'll trust you guys on that one until I'm done reading.

Anything you want to talk about in specific?
I'm not going to ramble or hypnotoad this game if you're looking forward (?) to that. Kind of got myself lynched as town (like actively, not passivly...) in the last game I played on d1 because I couldn't stand talking to rayn anymore and he kept tunneling everyone no matter what... so main goal right now is to make sure that doesn't happen again.

On January 24 2014 08:22 Toadesstern wrote:

well I'm missing out on some 10 or so pages inbetween but yeah I guess.

I don't really see a conundrum on Foolishness to be honest. I'd rather lynch into one of you five guys than Foolish atm. I really do not think he'd behave the way he did before deadline if he knew Sandro was mafia so either he played withough knowing his alignment or he's just town.

On January 25 2014 01:14 Toadesstern wrote:

I'd actually like to take that back. No idea what I was thinking yesterday... Had the whole voteswitch happening over a longer time period in my head and after rereading some of the posts Foolish did I just don't think they're that alignment indicative as it seemed on first look.

Like when he mentioned that if he's mafia he has no plan to win because he's limiting the lynch candidates. Same thing can be said about Kita and myself and VE certainly doesn't look like he's having any kind of longterm plan whatsoever either. The exception here's WoS as he still holds firmly on this prom lynch he wants to get, only ever so slightly hinting at maybe being willing to lynch Foolishness a little more but not actually doing so.

checking out his filter atm, you'll get something from me in a while.

On January 25 2014 01:32 Toadesstern wrote:


what's the truth. VE being mafia and you being wrong? Why didn't you say so from the beginning instead of doing those 2 wall of texts telling everyone how town he is for things that are in your opinion most likely not alignment indicative.

On January 25 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
Kita has a few big posts that have very little in the way of conclusions. Any that do have conclusions have the word "null" attached to them...."leaning townie null" or "scummy null" etc. Doesn't make him scum, but doesn't make him contributory either.

He was NOT on sandroba, but WAS around.

His largest post in the thread is his combinatrics post.

Flashes onto minions to steal farm.

Could maybe lynch.

On December 24 2013 13:57 gonzaw wrote:
Hello guys. Nice to finally start the game! :D

I think marv is being very suspicious, here:



Everybody knows Hapa was just trolling, like all trolling town do on early D1. You know, have some banter, some chats, random vote, etc, the usual stuff. It happens every game, we all know townies who do that to try and pass the time and have some fun early D1, or maybe to even get the ball rolling and get people to post and react.
Marv should know this. Like...it's part of the TL Mafia "meta": derpy townies on D1. Yet marv instantly jumps on Hapahauli the first instance he can, just because of that? And he seems so sure about it?
Really? I don't buy it



This is just hilarious.
Trust me, this is not "Classic scum Foolishness". If Foo' was scum, I'd know by now. Or at least, I wouldn't have such a strong townread on him. He's been posting very actively, being part of discussions, and in general trying to enforce some order in this D1. Scum Foo doesn't do that. Scum Foo lurks a little bit, posts some (kind of bad) suspicions on people and that's it.
Even more, marv doesn't even attempt to defend himself against Foo's accusations (which I agree with, see previous quote), he just OMGUSes him and tries to deflect attention.

Yeah...this is no town marv.

I think the bonfire does not want green blood today marvy-marv. Would you like to get closer to it a little bit? Why? Oh, nothing, I think I saw a coin in there....yes....go closer....yes more more.

##Vote: marvellosity

Oh, btw, yeah any Self-Aware Miller should obviously claim. Don't waste pages and pages discussing that shit, everybody knows that by now.
Also, yeah blabla "lurkers are bad", "we should policy lynch lurkers and inactives" bla bla, we all heard it before so let's cut the crap and lynch marv.

On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum.

One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today.

Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something.

On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:

lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita.
Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum.

On January 21 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
As far as I can tell, he doesn't respond to pressure on himself this early so it wouldn't matter.
I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one.

Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game?

On January 22 2014 10:32 WaveofShadow wrote:

It's totes gonna be me
I CAN FEEL IT

Your current scumread is still Prome I believe?
Prome is also a player who often comes out with a massive case against someone and pushes it pretty hard. Why do you not reserve the same judgment for him?

On January 21 2014 15:42 WaveofShadow wrote:

Only preliminary reads I really have are those who have been actively participating in the thread.
I have VE as my strongest townread atm, which I believe I have mentioned before (or at least hinted towards).
Hapa I have you as slight town because your entrance and play thus far is consistent with how I remember you from that one game where I smurfed as Gravityman, though I remain wary here because I am not the best meta-user around. Your lines of questioning appear pretty towny as well so even without meta you keep the cursory townread.

I have Prome as null atm for a combination of things that VE is also on him about (though the difference may be I don;'t find him scummy necessarily)---his entrance seems way too weird, attention-grabby and most of all forced to be something scum would attempt, but then again I'm not a big fan of the content nor his seemingly baseless townread of me.

Is there anything else anyone wants before I'm off to bed? I won't be around for much of tomorrow but I will return in the evening.

On January 23 2014 04:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
And for the record I probably am probably scummier on inactive Foolishness than inactive sandroba. Could be bias because I have precedent in PYP for sandroba in terms of an early game lurk then blasting onto the scene, but as was mentioend before (I forget by who atm?) sandroba was actively engaging the thread when he was around, whereas Foolishness basically hasn't talked to anyone, he just threw stuff and fucked off multiple times.

On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote:
At this moment I feel that Promethelax or HolyFlare should be lynched today. Gonzaw's catch on Holyflare's contradiction is really damning and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger just on that. HolyFlare's defense did feel a bit contrived and forced? He did bring up some good points but at the same time I don't feel like he said all that much. That may just be confirmation bias at this point though.

On January 23 2014 05:09 Foolishness wrote:
Also I would still vote HolyFlare, but I'm a nice a guy and he asked to be subbed out and I read too much into that sometimes.

On January 23 2014 05:42 Foolishness wrote:

I said I was confirming my read on him. You're asking me a question and quoting the post I answered it in? See where my vote is now? Promethelax or HolyFlare, both are good lynches.

HolyFlare's recent posts are very meh, but he could genuinely be frustrated and he did ask to be replaced out. Had he not asked to be subbed out this would be an easy decision, but I feel his real life frustration could be coming out in his posting behavior. I could also just be reading too much into this.

On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote:
sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive.

On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote:

I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events.

Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&currentpage=41#820

The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli.

Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later.

At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen.

Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3.

Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after.

It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point.

Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down.

What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1.

Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case.

So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it.

On January 24 2014 04:55 Foolishness wrote:

If I'm mafia with sandroba that should clear Promethelax. The other mafia would likely to be kitaman or HolyFlare or just a random straggler who was already voting for me.

Promethelax has made a lot of sense in his most recent posting (not the drunk ones, though I actually can't tell for some of them lol). Also sandroba went after him.

On January 24 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote:

Then you should be advocating that WoS and one of the other mystery people (kitaman, HolyFlare) are mafia. From what we know of day 1 if the four of you die then the town wins.

On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote:

If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it.

If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior.

On January 23 2014 07:11 Foolishness wrote:
sandroba is not a good lynch when Promethelax and HolyFlare are still alive.

Then you should be advocating that WoS and one of the other mystery people (kitaman, HolyFlare) are mafia

On January 25 2014 03:26 WaveofShadow wrote:
So once again, you think I'm scum because I'm not confident in my reads.
Whatever I can accept that to some degree but it still pisses me off that I essentially have to lie to the thread on my D1 if I don't have a strong read to show people I'm town. That isn't right.

And as for the point about me not being here for lynch?
Marv, if you would be so kind, what happened the last time people tried to get me lynched for not being around?
Have I ever ONCE lied about not being around when i could be?
This in particular REALLY fucking gets my goat because it's like it's the best you can do and it's blatantly false, and I have no way to effectively prove it. Are you purposefully trying to antagonize me with your case?

On January 25 2014 03:16 Toadesstern wrote:
how do you guys read so fast... I'm still trying to get through WoS filter and it's just so much "i think this ... but well... maybe not" and can't get through because of that...

Like I said, from my innitial read I didn't like WoS and most of it comes down to how he presented himself in the thread early on. Not surprising considering that my innitial read only consisted of the first 20 or so pages. Anyways, let's start with his very first post of the game:


and given his more recent posts, like the two about VE this really is a common theme here: It doesn't look genuine at all.
So first of all you'll realize the first phrase, being Welp, gonna go with my usual opener. and you'll probably think that it doesn't sound motivated at all, but whatever, could be anything, right? So you continue reading and he explains how he's happy that he rolled town because he'd be terrified to go up against town in this game.

Now the green thing on itself is nothing at all, like I said could be anything, but take into account that he actually points out that he's happy to have rolled town and I don't believe a word he says. That post doesn't sound delighted, happy or whatever else. It does sound like he's completly unmotivated