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On September 10 2010 09:00 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 08:49 Vz0 wrote:On September 10 2010 08:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As for game knowledge, I find it funny hearing random people I've never heard of commenting on commentators' game knowledge. What do they know? If you're learning something from a commentator then you probably aren't good enough to judge. For communicating game knowledge, I'd say Artosis and Day[9] are tied, then Tasteless, then JP/Husky/HD, then everyone else. Sometimes a good player will decide to commentate and they'll be up there with Artosis and Day[9], or even beyond them if it's a matchup they're familiar with.
you've got to be kidding me nony. HD (not husky/jp) knows FAR MORE about the game then tasteless does. Tasteless does excel as an entertainment caster (which is why hes kewl!!) but when it comes to actually game knowledge tastesless knows next to nothing.(relative to his brother) I mean hes stressing the fact so many times that people are making orbital commands prior to moving the CC. This is a well known fact in the diamond league heck even platinums do it. Everybdoy does it. Yet he tells us as if its some new protip. tThere are countless other times wehre Tastless have embarassed himself game knowledge wise. But I mean come on!!! In return, tastless finds the BJ's store in metalopolis. Who else has map awareness to match him?? GO tasteless !!!! :o The game has been out only a few months and new people are watching every day... These new viewers don't understand the concept of building a CC in any other spot than at the expansion. When Tasteless talked about that, I actually thought "it's really great that he fits in little things like that so that people who are totally new to SC can start to learn these things" Catering to Platinum and higher players would certainly be bad for the cast. It'd be horrible if they filtered their game knowledge by asking "do most Diamond players already know this?" The thing is, how are you going to judge a commentator's game knowledge if you are not more knowledgeable? If they tell you something you don't already know, then you have no idea if they're correct or not. If they tell you something you already know and agree with, so you know that they're giving out accurate information, you fault them for saying something that "everyone already knows."
For me, I'm not a pro player, or even a decent player. But when Tasteless says something like "oh protoss vs protoss always comes down to an arms race of who can get colossus first", and then I watch the MLG finals, where 4 warpgate is the dominant strategy and we only saw colossus in a couple of games it just kind of sounds like he might not be aware of current trends. Correct me if I'm wrong cause I know 0 about Protoss.
One thing is for sure though, if HD Starcraft had come up with a statement like that, there would immediately be a dozen TL users bitching about how horrible his game knowledge is and how he is unfit to cast.
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Feels to me they are more aware of the korean style than the "foreigner".
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On September 10 2010 10:01 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 09:00 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 10 2010 08:49 Vz0 wrote:On September 10 2010 08:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As for game knowledge, I find it funny hearing random people I've never heard of commenting on commentators' game knowledge. What do they know? If you're learning something from a commentator then you probably aren't good enough to judge. For communicating game knowledge, I'd say Artosis and Day[9] are tied, then Tasteless, then JP/Husky/HD, then everyone else. Sometimes a good player will decide to commentate and they'll be up there with Artosis and Day[9], or even beyond them if it's a matchup they're familiar with.
you've got to be kidding me nony. HD (not husky/jp) knows FAR MORE about the game then tasteless does. Tasteless does excel as an entertainment caster (which is why hes kewl!!) but when it comes to actually game knowledge tastesless knows next to nothing.(relative to his brother) I mean hes stressing the fact so many times that people are making orbital commands prior to moving the CC. This is a well known fact in the diamond league heck even platinums do it. Everybdoy does it. Yet he tells us as if its some new protip. tThere are countless other times wehre Tastless have embarassed himself game knowledge wise. But I mean come on!!! In return, tastless finds the BJ's store in metalopolis. Who else has map awareness to match him?? GO tasteless !!!! :o The game has been out only a few months and new people are watching every day... These new viewers don't understand the concept of building a CC in any other spot than at the expansion. When Tasteless talked about that, I actually thought "it's really great that he fits in little things like that so that people who are totally new to SC can start to learn these things" Catering to Platinum and higher players would certainly be bad for the cast. It'd be horrible if they filtered their game knowledge by asking "do most Diamond players already know this?" The thing is, how are you going to judge a commentator's game knowledge if you are not more knowledgeable? If they tell you something you don't already know, then you have no idea if they're correct or not. If they tell you something you already know and agree with, so you know that they're giving out accurate information, you fault them for saying something that "everyone already knows." For me, I'm not a pro player, or even a decent player. But when Tasteless says something like "oh protoss vs protoss always comes down to an arms race of who can get colossus first", and then I watch the MLG finals, where 4 warpgate is the dominant strategy and we only saw colossus in a couple of games it just kind of sounds like he might not be aware of current trends. Correct me if I'm wrong cause I know 0 about Protoss. One thing is for sure though, if HD Starcraft had come up with a statement like that, there would immediately be a dozen TL users bitching about how horrible his game knowledge is and how he is unfit to cast.
Since you asked for it. Tasteless was right and you are wrong. PvP is largely a race to Colossi. The way the matchup tends to work on normal maps(ie not DO and KR) is that one person 3 gate robo's or 4gates to apply immediate pressure and try to end the game while one person defends and tries to tech to colossi. If you skimp too much on defense you get your front busted and often lose while trying to get up to the colossi.
Its a dynamic matchup that Tasteless actually described pretty accurately - especially since he was playing Protoss as a main race for awhile.
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btw where are you guys even watching this gom stuff? is it archived anywhere?
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On September 10 2010 10:01 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 07:09 JWD wrote:
The number one thing I'd like to see out of Artosis and Tasteless is for them to treat this more like a job and less like a hobby. By that I mean I'd like to see that they prepared for the matches before casting them. Many times they seem not to know anything about the players involved. Can we get some background, anecdotes, anything? This is the sort of stuff that is crucial to developing a young game — we need to know the players to root for them!
Overall I think Artosis and Tasteless make a good combo though. I'd love to see Artosis go as in-depth on strategy as he did in his BW commentaries. I had to respond to this. I would like you to watch Idra's round 1 matches in the ro64 and tell me what you just said again. It completely proves you wrong. Artosis was talking about, in game 1m the strategy the terran could employ. He didn't in game one, but guess what, he did in game 2. Artosis predicted the player would be using ghosts to harass in TvZ via dropship etc which is extremely uncommon. That indicates he had "done his homework", what you're saying they don't do. I completely disagree with you.
I think you are right about that game, but I think that had a lot to do with Artosis and Idra being good friends and Artosis being very interested in Idra's opponent. I'm sure the 2 of them talked about it beforehand.
I would like to see more of that. Also Tasteless needs to learn the observer tools a bit better. Otherwise, I think Tasteless and Artosis are doing a great job and I'm looking forward to higher level play as the tournament progresses
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I have to agree with the "treat it like a job, not a hobby" statement.
Not knowing the hotkeys before going live with the "biggest tournament in the world" is unproffesional. Write the hotkeys on a piece of paper and at least disguise your inexperience.
After 3 days even I realised the basic structure of the show...when which overlay would be shown (scorebord for the day, preview for the next day, maps...etc). How can the caster that is being payed to sit there not at least have a piece of paper to know how his show is structured.
Why is "we have to wait for the korean casters to finish their sentence" 5 times a day acceptable, when basicly they could just talk until "something" happends (game starts, music starts etc.).
How come they plug the shit out of their private store?
The last 2 days (I think) Tasteless even gave some closing statement "see you guys tomorrow" before the last Interview with a winner, wich started like 20 seconds later.
I watch it for the games. Defenitly not for the commentary.
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the camera work isnt great
but how the hell do ppl dislike tasteless, hes fuckin awesome
i dont watch these for a learning experience or to be lectured on sc2 strategy. i watch it for entertainment and tasteless is fucking entertaining
personally, i think tasteless should become the play-by-play commentator. have him state the obvious (what is seen on the screen) and then pose questions to artosis and ask for his opinions (set up artosis so he can give us his analysis/opinions)
i like the constant comic relief by tasteless though regardless. its more fun for me to watch
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They are just learning this also. Give them time.
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The casts have been really really entertaining so far, I wake up at 5am on weekdays just so I can watch live. Tasteless and Artosis have been doing so well when the external circumstances are CALM. When the studio starts getting hectic, they get caught up in all the hubbub that occurs at a studio, and are often the last people made aware of decisions and timings for the actual production.
The only thing that has occurred at all that has reduced the value of the entertainment is the minor fumbling at the controls and somewhat choppy camera work. Tasteless told all of us during the last cast that he is getting the hang of it and hopes to do a lot better as the tournament progresses.
Remember people this is only the round of 64!!! There are bound to be games that have people no one really knows, poor decisions, sloppy play, etc etc.. because of the bracket positions currently.
I'm sure that as we get into the ro32 and 16 that the commentary will be a lot more compelling (strategically), due to higher level play (which means constant action, the random lulls during the low level play do cause Tasteless to get a bit distracted  which is funny!)
Most of all THANK YOU to GomTV and Artosis and Tasteless and TorcH! You guys really make starcraft 2 mean so much to a lot of people and sometimes I think people take your passion and enthusiasm for granted.
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Tasteless and Artosis are doing an amazing job. From what I can tell they have almost no support from the production stuff at GOM.
This makes the transitions from the games, into the interviews and to commercials extremely awkward. Artosis seems to have the timings down for the names at the beginning of the match. Tasteless's style is good, and I love the random BW names of units, its endearing. The banter between them is fun and keeps me engaged even when the players are doing standard openings for the 15th time.
Overall, I like the style, I wish GOM would support them more with an English/Korean staff member to clue them in exactly when the matches are starting, when commercials are starting, and when the camera is going to be on them. My complaints are more with GOM's production than Artosis and Tasteless themselves.
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The commentators of the biggest eSports event in the world don't even know the game's hotkeys.
No, I won't give them fucking time. There's no excuse for it.
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On September 10 2010 10:41 Aylear wrote:
The commentators of the biggest eSports event in the world don't even know the game's hotkeys.
No, I won't give them fucking time. There's no excuse for it.
That's GOM's fault. There is no reason in hell during a $600k or w/e tournament that you do not have a dedicated English observer. Just absolutely no excuse.
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I haven't watched any of the commentaries yet, but I wanted to add an observation to the thread. After every single major tournament, there has been a criticism thread. It doesn't matter who it is, everyone has their favorite caster and everyone finds things they don't like in the casting.
I am not saying we shouldn't point out ways to improve, but a huge part of it is just style preference. I am a big artosis fanboy, personally, but just because I like his style doesn't mean that someone else is necessarily less of a caster.
Anyway, just a thought. I was trying to be objective, now I will shed that for general caster thoughts. Anyone who thinks that HD/Husky know more about the game...scratch that, anyone who thinks they have a decent understanding of the game period is being silly. To me, what separates great casters from others are the ones who can look at a situation and know what it means.
Go back and watch the casts from TSL 1 and 2. Artosis consistently predicted builds, or saw something small and knew what it meant right away. He displayed his deep understanding of the game. HD and Husky never ever do that, except for the obvious situations where they watched the game beforehand (like when HD posts a video of IdrA against someone not as good and says something along the lines of "lets see if player X can beat IdrA..." when we all know that the only reason he is casting the game is for the views that IdrA rage brings in).
Granted SC2 no one is good at it yet since the builds aren't as deeply established as they were for SC:BW, but still. The more that SC2 becomes "figured out," the more we will see good players separate themselves as good casters.
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On September 10 2010 10:12 groms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:01 Wargizmo wrote:On September 10 2010 09:00 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On September 10 2010 08:49 Vz0 wrote:On September 10 2010 08:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
As for game knowledge, I find it funny hearing random people I've never heard of commenting on commentators' game knowledge. What do they know? If you're learning something from a commentator then you probably aren't good enough to judge. For communicating game knowledge, I'd say Artosis and Day[9] are tied, then Tasteless, then JP/Husky/HD, then everyone else. Sometimes a good player will decide to commentate and they'll be up there with Artosis and Day[9], or even beyond them if it's a matchup they're familiar with.
you've got to be kidding me nony. HD (not husky/jp) knows FAR MORE about the game then tasteless does. Tasteless does excel as an entertainment caster (which is why hes kewl!!) but when it comes to actually game knowledge tastesless knows next to nothing.(relative to his brother) I mean hes stressing the fact so many times that people are making orbital commands prior to moving the CC. This is a well known fact in the diamond league heck even platinums do it. Everybdoy does it. Yet he tells us as if its some new protip. tThere are countless other times wehre Tastless have embarassed himself game knowledge wise. But I mean come on!!! In return, tastless finds the BJ's store in metalopolis. Who else has map awareness to match him?? GO tasteless !!!! :o The game has been out only a few months and new people are watching every day... These new viewers don't understand the concept of building a CC in any other spot than at the expansion. When Tasteless talked about that, I actually thought "it's really great that he fits in little things like that so that people who are totally new to SC can start to learn these things" Catering to Platinum and higher players would certainly be bad for the cast. It'd be horrible if they filtered their game knowledge by asking "do most Diamond players already know this?" The thing is, how are you going to judge a commentator's game knowledge if you are not more knowledgeable? If they tell you something you don't already know, then you have no idea if they're correct or not. If they tell you something you already know and agree with, so you know that they're giving out accurate information, you fault them for saying something that "everyone already knows." For me, I'm not a pro player, or even a decent player. But when Tasteless says something like "oh protoss vs protoss always comes down to an arms race of who can get colossus first", and then I watch the MLG finals, where 4 warpgate is the dominant strategy and we only saw colossus in a couple of games it just kind of sounds like he might not be aware of current trends. Correct me if I'm wrong cause I know 0 about Protoss. One thing is for sure though, if HD Starcraft had come up with a statement like that, there would immediately be a dozen TL users bitching about how horrible his game knowledge is and how he is unfit to cast. Since you asked for it. Tasteless was right and you are wrong. PvP is largely a race to Colossi. The way the matchup tends to work on normal maps(ie not DO and KR) is that one person 3 gate robo's or 4gates to apply immediate pressure and try to end the game while one person defends and tries to tech to colossi. If you skimp too much on defense you get your front busted and often lose while trying to get up to the colossi. Its a dynamic matchup that Tasteless actually described pretty accurately - especially since he was playing Protoss as a main race for awhile.
Thanks for that. Note that I'm not criticising Tasteless on his game knowledge, just trying to explain why some might be criticising him on it.
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As far as I'm concerned, if they are having fun casting then I'm having fun too. It's understandable for them to talk about things other than the game as well. Most people don't realize how hard it is to find a lot of stuff to talk about when strategies change on a weekly basis and half the players are just random nerds who haven't made a name for themselves yet. The worst thing a caster can do is not talk at all and to prevent that they just say whatever comes to them first. Sure, there might have been some mistakes but overall the casts have been very enjoyable. Maybe wait for them to cast together for longer than a week before being too overly critical.
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I like the zoom in
The tabs could be used a little more
I would like it if occasionally they would let the camra follow 1 player's actions so we can see how awesome they are or how they micro.
They really need to improve on excitement. Tasteless used to be loud and very energetic. Now it just sounds like I'm just listening to a couple of dudes sitting back takin' it easy on their lunch break.
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Which is better: a machete or a scapel?
Answer:
+ Show Spoiler +It depends if you're hacking your way through a rain forest or being shown the implement the surgeon will open you up with.
So it is with the 'who's the better caster' argument in this thread. Each of us puts our own weighting on witty banter, word usage (a game does not 'continue to progress', it just 'progresses' or 'continues'), game knowledge, game awareness and who we are secretly jealous of.
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On September 10 2010 10:43 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:41 Aylear wrote:
The commentators of the biggest eSports event in the world don't even know the game's hotkeys.
No, I won't give them fucking time. There's no excuse for it. That's GOM's fault. There is no reason in hell during a $600k or w/e tournament that you do not have a dedicated English observer. Just absolutely no excuse.
Oh, I'm not putting the blame squarely on the casters' shoulders (although I would like them to take it more seriously by going the extra mile for us and spending an evening memorizing the hotkeys or researching the players they're going to be casting the next day). GOM is very much disregarding the foreign scene with their neglect, and they obviously haven't given the casters the resources they should have. Yes, GOM has other concerns, but what they've given us so far is very much a second rate product. That by itself is okay; I mean, I expected as much. But I was expecting excellence in one particular area: The casting.
I don't feel like we're being taken seriously. We're an afterthought, barely worth spending time on.
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On September 10 2010 10:47 Ronald_McD wrote:
I like the zoom in
The tabs could be used a little more
I would like it if occasionally they would let the camra follow 1 player's actions so we can see how awesome they are or how they micro.
They really need to improve on excitement. Tasteless used to be loud and very energetic. Now it just sounds like I'm just listening to a couple of dudes sitting back takin' it easy on their lunch break.
I don't know about that, a lot of people I've talked to keep saying Tasteless isn't as energetic, but I'm not sure if that's right, I still think he's very loud and energetic. Artosis and Tasteless aren't loud all through out the game yeah, but they still scream and cheer throughout.
I like the little zooming in, I don't think it really takes anything away ( Although doesn't add much lol.)
I do think Player Vision and the Tabs should be switched from Production, Income and such more often.
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Watch the korean vods. The observers are fucking great. The mouse moves slow and points stuff out. The tabs change consistently. Outlying dots on the minimap are given attention without missing action. The observing is just on another level.
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EPT
