Hi.
On April 07 2013 15:52 gonzaw wrote:1) Introduction:Ah yes. I've been keeping an eye out on Artanis for a while. I've noticed him when I made this post. What I had noticed, was how Artanis tried to be part of discussions. Here's the thing. Players like yamato, rayn, maybe Sharrant, etc, started discussing how to make draft picks. Other players straight up didn't say much about it or said they didn't care much, like Keirathi (I believe), Meapak, etc. The "active" ones that were discussing things though, did so in a productive manner. They proposed plans, they discussed them, they argued with each other about their benefits and criticisms of others. They posted thoughts on other people's plans and thoughts. Most importantly though: They tried to put effort in their posts, while still trying to be productive. Artanis certainly did seem to put effort, but didn't seem to try and be productive
How is pushing my RNG plan not productive? I kept bringing it up even when people ignored me because I thought it was a good plan. I pushed it when people weren't discussing it and asked people how they felt about it. I commented on the Yamato plan and why I disagreed then improved upon it. You're giving a very distorted image of my day-1 play here.
So let's start this kay?
Bring it.
I'm not trying to contribute, I am contributing. So contributing makes me scum? Okay. I don't see the putting up an appearance at all. I read the thread, had an idea and pushed for it.
I'll go back and mention something I've posted before: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:05 gonzaw wrote:On April 05 2013 02:54 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 05 2013 02:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 02:47 Caller wrote:On April 05 2013 02:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 02:43 Vivax wrote:
It's ok caller, just means you will be the last one along with the designated elected townie mofo you'll contest. Hurt yourself bro.
I'll take a look at your options there. Seems like you like to pick the most active ones, but need to check if they're actually proposing malicious ideas. Disagreed on some stuff with sharrant, for example. It's like he wanted to leave "dangerous" roles open for scum. It doesn't matter if they proposed good or bad ideas. Mafia is probably not going to push any ideas at all (because they all have a backdoor - because there are so many roles). Everyone pushing ideas regardless if they are good/bad are probably town at this point, especially the guys who are pushing ultimately bad ideas. :D au contraire mafia will push any ideas even if they are "good" because their picking strategy never reflects what town is thinking and if they have a "good plan" they become more "townlike." or they participate. either way it looks good on them. As i said the guys top in drafting order are gonna fall fast, thay have the "best" roles after all (or at least likely). If you were mafia why would you push an idea that's good for town? Doesn't it hurt your team? If you were mafia why would you push an idea that's bad for town? Doesn't it draw suspicion to you? You cant push a bad strategy in PYP, you just cant. It gets shut down immediately. Its better for them to let town do what they do and maybe slightly alter the 'plan' to benefit scum more. So therefore your town 'criteria' is absolute bullshit The criteria may be "bullshit"....to an extent. It's "obvious" that in many games the people being the most active are more likely to be town. In this game, yamato, rayn, Sharrant, and to an extent Moctsa/geript have been the most active in going with discussion. Yes, it's possible one (or more) of them are scum, just have some big balls and decided to start the game guns-blazing going for town cred and trying to be an influence. The thing is that other than maybe yamato/Mocsta I don't see them doing that as scum (as opposed if they were wbg or something like that), plus their interactions with them seem legit in the sense that they are genuinely discussing stuff to be productive (which is likelier to come from townies than scum). For instance, take a look at all others that "chimed in" with "pro-town plans" and stuff.....yet made absolutely no impact at all in the game It's possible you'll find your first scums in there (if not on the inactive/"bored" players as well). When I was talking about those "possible first scums", I was talking about Artanis primarily. This is a fact: Artanis chimed in with the setup discussion, and even proposed a "pro-town plan", yet he had absolutely no impact in the game at all. He was just a passenger in the thread discussion about plans, coincidentally something scum love to do. Compare that to other player's, like yamato, Mocsta, rayn, or geript, who cared about the discussion and the outcome from it. You can't say the same thing with Artanis There are some people that acted similarly regarding plans, but not to the extent Artanis did IMO, and even some of those have other qualities about their play that make you have a completely different read on them (austin, Keirathi and maybe even RO spring to mind)
So I'm scum for contributing but not getting my idea through despite asking numerous times. You could also consider the option that everyone wanted to get their own ideas through, plus the distraction of interaction between people who said they didn't like plans and just wanted to pick their favourite roles made it so that no plan actually got through, not just mine. I really don't see how you can hold that against me.
3) Unnecessary complaints that happen out of place:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Holy shit thread moving fast.On April 04 2013 22:49 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
That's true rayn, the plan does rely on the players that step up to be town. However it isn't a downside because the alternative is using no plan in which case scum can pick good roles anyway. Using this plan doesn't mean that the players that follow the RNG idea are instantly labeled town for the rest of the game. They'd still be under scrutiny. All it does is make it riskier for scum to pick one or two of the roles we consider the strongest for them. was in response to On April 04 2013 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. I don't think that's a good idea either. Scum can easily pick good roles for them by "blocking" a good scum role and in LYLO just BAM - ggnore. Also if town blocks a role scum can leave them alive to be WIFOMed to death later. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 23:18 Caller wrote:On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 00:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I really don't want to read through the mess from last night  I've skimmed through it and it was unappealing. It seems the first three people indicated they just want to pick what they want/what 'they think is best for town', which worries me. It means they'll have no accountability. Going down the list, Sinani's indicated the same so I think we can pretty much presume the roleblocking strategy is going to be hard to enforce, unless anyone thinks they can convince VE to pick one. Sinani's filter looked particularly horrible when I just checked it. Are you actually going to play the game or are you content with trolling it? Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Just caught up with the thread and it's filled with, well, filler. Can't say I've grown much wiser alignment wise other than Oats giving me town vibes simply for all the prodding in everything. With all these plans of picking or not picking it seems people have forgotten about the RNG option for picking which I still believe is the strongest as it puts scum at a big risk of becoming VT if they go for the strong roles whilst still allowing said town players to potentially pick a strong blue role. It covers both flanks. Here I find an unnecessary complaint about the thread. Unnecessary in the sense that he seems to mention just to mention it. It serves little purpose other than complaint. They seem out of place and happen too often as well. This seems a little fake to me, because I don't think a townie would spend so much time to complain about it in so many different places. Nobody else did, bar maybe Vivax at some points (but those didn't feel so out of place either, specially since at least Vivax expanded a little bit on why he was complaining). He's just complaining, specially those last 2 posts, just for the sake of complaining, and most importantly, for the sake of appearing he's active and contributing something. By doing stuff like this, he's hiding in plain sight. That last post makes me a little suspicious about him. Why? First he discredits what's going on in the thread by complaining about it being filler. Then he posts a wishy washy read on Oats. Then he posts some fluff about the draft plans, and even mentions his plan even more. Just look at that, "...the RNG option,.. which I still believe is the strongest...." . Even when talking about the plans he has to mention how HIS plan is the best, he has to mention how much he contributed to the thread by posting a super-duper plan, right!!?
Yes, I am complaining because I hate big games and I got busy since the time I signed up. So you can see me pushing my plan here once again, yet I'm supposedly just talking to put up an appearance. The pushing of my idea has a very clear objective. I want people to talk about it.
Those 2 last posts of his are total fluff, specially with some of his reads (on Oats, sinani and VE).
Those posts scream "I'm trying to cram as much stuff as possible that makes others think I'm contributing!".
He crams so much bullshit in so little space, yet he has no time to do anything else? He has little time to comment on other stuff, or interact with people, be part of discussions, etc.
I've found scum do this the most. They have a single post where they cram some shit into it trying to compass different topics, posting fluff and filler, then just let it be that. They don't expand on those points, don't interact with others, don't participate in discussions willingly and without pressure, etc.
With those last 2 posts Artanis does this, which I find suspicious.
I thought scum wants to say very little with a lot of words. Guess it's the other way around when you have a scumread on someone. I'm being as informative in as little words as possible because A) I'm lazy and B) The thread is already cluttered up enough. Also, what I've found from post-game talk, you can make your point very clearly with a short post and convince others with it, like Syllogism did in Fruity Mafia. It takes up much less energy and you can convey your thoughts just as well. That I'm not very good at it yet just means I'm not experienced with it yet.
4) The geript case:At this time I think it was when I was telling myself "Okay, Artanis seems suspicious to me, but I'll wait before pressuring him and see what he does"... ...and that "case" is what he does indeed. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Hi Geript. On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie.
Oh and I think you're pretty townie. Why on earth would a townie post this?
WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. On April 05 2013 14:00 geript wrote:
eh, I don't value investigation roles very highly. If people want to go for them, I'm not going to prevent it. I think that there are just better options available. As for protection roles, the only one I really like is jailkeeper. If you want to post a better list I would love to see it. As a matter of fact I think it would be good for other people to chime in on general draft strategy as it would give some of the slackers a better idea of what to go for. Investigation and protective roles are truly awful for town. Who'd want less KP at night in the game, right? On April 05 2013 15:05 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 14:58 geript wrote:
Sorry missed that question. The more I play the less full 180's seems like 'sure thing scum tells' to me; as a matter of fact, IIRC 90% of the 180's in the last game were done by town. I'd say it's suspicious and worth looking into him more, but there was a quote from the VE/BH mason log that it reminds me of it boiled down to something like "I don't want to push Geript into a corner because the more we do that the likelier he is to look like scum and prevent us from being able to avoid a mislynch. Instead I'd rather try and interact with him on his scumreads etc." I think VE's strategy is a very good one. I think it's suspicious but not to the point that it's a full scum tell for me. I'd much rather try and interact with him in a way to not lose him in case he is town. Fair points that are applicable to anyone. Look, though my emphasis is on Rayn, I am not tunneled on him. If he proves his innocence, I will move on. But having reviewed my interactions with him, I am struggling to see how he can even be a remote town read. (From my POV) At best he is null. ==== As an aside, I think holding off lynching candidates in the top 5 draft is terrible: just because there is a risk of lynching a townie that held an awesome role. If someone be scummy, you lynch them. Full Stop. On April 05 2013 15:09 geript wrote:
Thank you Moc, now I know that you are town. This post apparently makes Mocsta town. In what world can scum not make a post like this? What is it about this post that makes you read him as this apparent townMocsta? Also, as Mocsta already brought up On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... On its own it's not lynchworthy, but with how poorly scumript has been playing so far I'd say this adds to the case. Vote scum. Vote Geript. Firstly, I don't know if I am the only one, but when I was reading the thread I had the feeling geript was likely town, with the way he proposed his plan, the behaviour of his, etc (right now I can't really post many reasons because I had these feelings some days ago and haven't checked geript since, but these were indeed my feelings then). Second, let's dwell into the case. That first part is horrendous. Even worse than VE's "RO called Oats out therefore is scum!" part from his case. So, let's see if I get this straight: geript has specific knowledge of Mocsta's town play he uses as a heuristic he knows himself and nobody else does. He mentions this to Mocsta so Mocsta knows he's watching him. Then mocsta does this apparently, and geript tells him he "passed the test". Basically, geript knows something Mocsta always does as town, and thus is waiting for him to do it this game, to get a better read on him. Sounds pretty normal right? And at worst null, right? Well apparently not to Artanis
Look at his god damn formulation and tell me that isn't wishy washy as fuck. Seriously, read over it and say it in your head. It put up some serious red flags in my head, and I didn't see a town explanation. I still find Geript's explanation for it mediocre, but his general attitude towards the case as well as his other posts since then have made my suspicions wane. I also presented my suspicions a bit stronger than they were because I wanted people to actually pay attention to them. That's something I've learned from Promethelax when he convinced me to post for Vivax after I had called Vivax town in Empire Mini Mafia II. This post specifically still haunts me, and it's something I want to learn from.
I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find.
His next part in the case is something irrelevant about some comment geript made about setup speculation (which is and should be null at worst)
If that comment doesn't put red flags in your mind then I'm not sure what else I can say. It definitely did for me, which is why I confronted people with it every time.
And...that's it? That's his "case"?
Oh wait, he mentions that "geript thinks Mocsta is town" bit again, and even mentions the "scumslip" (which is obviously not a scumslip for anyone with 2 brain cells).
The "scumslip" bit was just padding to the case, it wasn't the main focal point. It's the said post that I found very odd.
I did half-seriously ask him if he was joking...to see if it maybe was a "bait" case to get info on geript...
...but it wasn't, meaning Artanis seemingly believed his own case, and I can't believe a town Artanis would do so.
But that's wrong. It IS something I believed in.
5) Aggressive "fake" behaviour:After he posts his case, his "push" of geript seems too fake too me. He seems aggressive out of nowhere for no reason Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 07:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Also, how about actually commenting on the case rather than waffling around it? Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 07:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
How is calling someone town then scum then town over nothing not scummy? How is him not inventing a reason at random from a null post to suddenly call mocsta town after doubting him not scummy? What are your categories for someone being scum exactly? Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 08:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Can you explain in which way your history is relevant to calling him leaning town but not really mocstatown yet leaning townie but not really but yeah kinda in thread? Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 08:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:29 Bill Murray wrote:
Artanis is scum with Keirathi
GG I'm gonna put in as much effort as you just did. Bill Murray is scum. Now can you comment on the Geript case or are you going to be useless? Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 08:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:27 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:16 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Mocsta, it's not an association read. That just adds to the case. The post that really set me off was the one where he called you town but not really but town five times in two sentences. Its association because there is no flip. The association was, if Geript is scum; it goes someways towards implicating Keirathi as associated scum (you know, the stuff that was taken precedence over the past 2/3 pages, originated by Caller) But I'm not using it as an association case at all, my main crux of the case was the post I mentioned which has no bearing on Keirathi or Caller or any of that. Look at that post alone and tell me if you see any town motivation in making it. Geript is a difficult player to work with. + Show Spoiler [Geript fallacies] +His second game on this forum (Mafia LX).. lets just say.. post-game, people decided he needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool.
Geript is not stupid; is aware of this perception; and realises to play it to his strengths.
Geript also has more balls than ppl give him credit for.
The other hard part is: his play is still developing.
He just played scum; so has more insight in how to blend in as scum; and also what he values are being a good townie.
I just wanted to point out here some context for a publicly considered "fragile" player - a reputation I dont think he deserves. I think there is merit in what you have pointed out, and am paying close attention to his responses. I also find it curious that when defending Rayn, he likes to point out validity in VE strategy as a basis. Soon he proceeds to call out VE for "working behind the scenes", and then later calls him out again for not scum hunting.
P.S. its sat morning for me, so I will be back in 10-12hrs. So he's playing to his strengths by saying things that have no town motivation? Please explain to me how that works. Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM? If he's so aware of his perception, why does his posting history look so awful? You've basically said in this post that he's better than people give him credit for, yet his post history reeks of scum. If he's good as you say he is then this should ring even more alarm bells. The point regarding VE you make only compounds that, so that makes me wonder. Why so noncommittal? He's being needlessly aggressive in my mind. The way he posts seems fake too me as well. He seems to antagonize everything, specially when he starts arguing with Mocsta He doesn't show a mentality of "I want to figure out the alignment of this player", he shows an mentality of total confrontation and wanting to paint geript as scum no matter what Mocsta keeps arguing with Artanis about stuff, yet Artanis can only think of how to make geript look as scum even more.
It's called pressure. You might've heard of it. If I posted "hm, I still kinda think Geript is scum but I'm doubting about it." would there be any pressure left? No, he could sit back, relax, and answer things thought out thoroughly. I wanted him to react with his gut, and he showed a mindset that made me think twice.
Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 07:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 07:57 yamato77 wrote:
Geript is obviously not mafia if you've been reading the game at all. Why? There's also this. I share yamato's opinion here, and I think some others did as well I'd say other townies did as well. Artanis didn't.....let's take a guess why shall we? Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 20:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript, but your case on VE and the constructive way you replied to my post makes me willing to reconsider my read. I'm curious to read VE's reply to it. On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this?
WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote:
Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play? No, I don't flip-flop on your alignment as all. I'm very specific in what my conclusion is and my thought process towards it is explained. I could've just posted that I thought you looked town now, and you'd ask me "why?" and then I'd say the same thing. I just saved us two posts of meaningless banter.
Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote:
Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. Because you asked me a very specific question, which was my reasoning why I was questioning you. I'm explaining my thought process so you can follow it. He then backs off geript, but I think it's weak. He spent so much time and effort discrediting and accusing geript, to then just brush off saying "I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript..." ? That's not how he came out at all, he didn't "not like geript's posts", he apparently thought geript was obvious scum incarnate and went guns blazing against him. That just doesn't feel right and seems like a half-assed way to back off geript
See the part before.
6) Other stuff:
Some other stuff that make me wary....is basically how everybody is ignoring him.
He is indeed flying under the radar, and was until Meapak called him out.
Yet even Meapak has "forgotten" about him now
Not only that, right now there are eight different players being voted, yet nobody votes Artanis, yet nobody even talks about him.
I'd think scum would love throwing some dirt on town Artanis now to create even more chaos and have even more "candidates" in the table to confuse town...yet they don't.
He's also AFK now for like 24 hours. I won't take that much into consideration since it must have been some IRL issue.
You may realize a similar method I did in my last game.
Last game (MTG Mini Mafia 2), I had a scum read on Aperture, but basically didn't mention him at all for a while and put him under 0 pressure for 24 or so hours (or more).
I saw that nobody mentioned him, nobody casted suspicion on him, and he kept flying under the radar not contributing and doing shit.
That instantly told me he was scum (if he was town he wouldn't do shit all when under no pressure, and if he did, scum would love to cast suspicion on him, which they didn't).
I tried doing something similar here.
That method worked out in the past (Aperture was scum)....I'll let you figure out the rest.
Yeah, scum never mentioning their scumbuddies is a great way to play a game. WIFOM at its finest folks.
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EPT
