EPTA Second Look at Zerg Openings - Page 6
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
RoyalFlush1994
Singapore30 Posts
| ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On April 10 2011 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote: From my testing I concluded that getting a pool beyond 15 supply was kind of a waste because you will have 200 minerals in reserve anyways, so there is really no reason not to get it. I did do some analysis on hatch first, and concluded that it is always the most economical option. Hatch first should be your preferred option, however it runs into problems in regard to early pressure, particularly in ZvZ, and also hatch blocking against protoss. Might just message you on bnet since I've seen you on more recently, but in case you read this first... In your testing, what food hatch did you test? I've heard silly things like 6hatch could be economically superior if you could get away with it (for example, maybe in team games?? I understand the reasoning behind 14hatch (earliest you can hatch first without larva capping) And also 15hatch (the earliest you can hatch without excess larva) What I'm interested in is, is there an earlier hatch-first build that nets some advantage that maybe doesn't cut nearly as much econ as it seems. (something akin to 11 pool 18hatch, but for hatch-first). I've been messing lately with 11 hatch 12 pool and having some interesting results. I'm curious if you have any data on any early hatch-first builds? | ||
|
lazorexplosion
2 Posts
I was kinda expecting it to do even better on larva, since the 12 pool is down only very slightly later than an 11 overpool; some of the difference might just be a quirk of periodic larva timings and smoothing/sampling. But unlike 11 overpool, 12 pool avoids the mining hit caused by going for an extractor trick instead of building an overlord on 9. Anyway, it confirms my anecdotal feeling that 12 and 14 pools seem to have no noticeable economic difference, and I like the slightly earlier lings. Seems to me like I should use 12 pool as my standard pool first option. | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On March 19 2011 04:14 jdseemoreglass wrote: In ZvZ, assuming you aren't quickly expanding, I think 11overpool is clearly best. An increased larvae count is a significant advantage in such an aggressive matchup. The extra minerals of the later pool builds generally aren't needed in this matchup if you are playing pool first, since you will typically not be fast-expanding, and you will be gathering more than enough in order to constantly produce lings and banelings. Getting an earlier pool will also give you the flexibility of going all-in if you scout a player going hatch-first against you, and also give you greater safety in defending against 6/7pool cheese. Due to all these factors, I would recommend 11overpool with gas at 1:40 instead of the more common 14gas/14pool opening in ZvZ. In ZvP I would lean towards the 14pool build, because it is fairly common to expand at some point in the 20's supply, and also to get a roach warren and/or spines, all of which require a higher mineral count advantage as opposed to larvae. In ZvT I almost always favor opening hatch first, but if you are going for an aggressive baneling bust or roach rush, 11overpool should always be best. I just wanted to say that since your posts long ago on the subject, I've adopted 11overpool as my standard in ZvZ and ZvP (I go for a ling heavy ZvP with delayed roaches though), and I hatch first in ZvT, though I'm open to changes in ZvT right now as I'm pretty lost in that matchup currently. I think that 11overpool in ZvZ is really great for the reason you mentioned. There is a time where ling speed finishes, and your opponent literally cannot have more lings than you. They must defend with something else, be it sunks+lings, banelings, roaches, queens blocking the ramp can help, etc. But I do want to mention that I've tried being very aggressive early with 11overpool against hatch first, and it just has not worked for me. I've found it best to just harass drones/stop them from mining, or maybe get a kill if you're lucky, keep the lings running around to scout a roach warren or baneling nest, but keep them alive to be part of your big attack when speed kicks in. ZvP I think 11overpool is great because (1) I don't want to deal with cannon rushes when the Protoss opens forge FE and I open hatch first, and (2) I can drone to 15, then make a pair of lings and queen to get to 18/18, and the lings come out at a good timing to chase the probe and deal with expansion blocking antics. If they don't cancel their pylon, they can delay the hatch a bit, but it's not very long considering the Protoss lost 100 minerals doing so. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's also a bit confusing since some people like speedlings, some don't. I'm reading ZvZ = 11pool/14gas is better than 14gas/14pool for the same thing For Zvt 'spanishiwa no gas' = 14 hatch 15 pool I like speedling openings in ZvP, so I might as well go 11 pool 14 gas in that match up too? in ZvZ 11pool/14gas is better than 14/14 because although you 14 has more money, 11 has the larva and you can't spend the money of 14 anyways while 11 has better macro in that the larva and mineral income is more sustainable. | ||
|
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 17 2011 08:51 michaelhasanalias wrote: Might just message you on bnet since I've seen you on more recently, but in case you read this first... In your testing, what food hatch did you test? I've heard silly things like 6hatch could be economically superior if you could get away with it (for example, maybe in team games?? I understand the reasoning behind 14hatch (earliest you can hatch first without larva capping) And also 15hatch (the earliest you can hatch without excess larva) What I'm interested in is, is there an earlier hatch-first build that nets some advantage that maybe doesn't cut nearly as much econ as it seems. (something akin to 11 pool 18hatch, but for hatch-first). I've been messing lately with 11 hatch 12 pool and having some interesting results. I'm curious if you have any data on any early hatch-first builds? I experimented with very early hatch (to deny blocking). The best IMHO is 13 hatch with triple extractor trick. You put the hatch before the first overlord, but get up to 13 drones by doing a triple extractor. The follow up is then ovie and 13/14/15 pool. You use the drone from the nat extractor trick to scout, else a double extractor => hatch => 13..15 pool will be roughly the same. You get a very early hatch down (~1'50) without too much larvae loss, however it will cost you some economy. The problem is, that you are still extremely vulnerable to cannon/bunker rush, and because of the early hatch you often do not have the option to cancel in case of all in's. Abandonned it, but i played it for a while so it is not completely unplayable especially on small maps where your nat is blocked easily. | ||
|
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On May 18 2011 14:20 Belial88 wrote: Im really confused - if this thread puts an end to the econ debate, why is there a 2nd look? In the original thread where that line was used, I was referring specifically to the debate of whether hatch first or pool first is more economical. It was shown after repeated tests that hatch first is always ahead in minerals mined. I intended this thread to explain the data on pool first builds and show that there is a trade-off relationship between minerals and larvae. It's also a bit confusing since some people like speedlings, some don't. I'm reading ZvZ = 11pool/14gas is better than 14gas/14pool for the same thing In ZvZ, speedlings openings are typically standard. Some people prefer hatch first on certain maps, but in general speedlings is the proper way to open. The difference between 11pool and 14pool is that 11pool gives you more total speedlings than the 14pool, and also gets them out faster. I like speedling openings in ZvP, so I might as well go 11 pool 14 gas in that match up too? in ZvZ 11pool/14gas is better than 14/14 because although you 14 has more money, 11 has the larva and you can't spend the money of 14 anyways while 11 has better macro in that the larva and mineral income is more sustainable. If you like a certain opening, by all means do it. But I will let you know that it is standard to expand against protoss once you clear your natural of any probes and pylons. Going 14pool instead of 11overpool will give you a slight resource advantage, allowing you to drop your hatch faster or get a faster roach warren or spine. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been wanting to do some testing of 11overpool vs 14pool timings against protoss expansion blocks. If anyone is willing, I would like someone to test 1v1 me to block my expo with a pylon each game. Or, if someone has experience with the map editor and can show me how to make a map that can reset with a pylon in place, I would really appreciate it. If anyone else has questions regarding my testing, I'll be happy to answer them in this thread. Also looking for any master Zerg's who are good with baneling play and would be willing to try some practice games against 11overpool. | ||
|
blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 | ||
|
guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
| ||
|
Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On May 29 2011 19:43 ayadew wrote: For all intents and purposes, spanishiwa style is identical to 14-15 hatch in econ. The difference being that you don't mine gas so you will obviously get more minerals.Could you take a look on how good the spanishiwa build style is? Ie, 16 hatch, 15 pool, 2 queens asap, 1 spine crawler, 2 more queens, gas on 36, all this while only making drones. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017 | ||
|
oZe
Sweden492 Posts
| ||
|
GameName
8 Posts
SO, if we were to compare the 11 overpool to the 14 pool. We would find that the 11 overpool would trade some mins for extra larva via an earlier queen WHICH leads to better defence against early cheese. Although, excuse me if someone has already posted this question but if the 11 overpool was to make 6 lings, would the affect on the econ be any worse than that if it was an 14 pool building 6 lings as soon as the pool pops? And how badly it affects the econ. All has to be relative to the 14 pool. Also if someone could run down the BADS of the 11 overpool hence we might find out what counters it. So i think i read, in ZvP early stalker pressure is a problem cause speed would be researched to late due to a late gas ect. A reply would be great. | ||
|
.Mthex-
United States168 Posts
| ||
|
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
Over pool is ~20 seconds later, which defintely makes a difference. In case you are not rushed, just pump drones. also note that a lot of effort is put on how to save 50 minerals delaying pool, however delaying gas for 30 in-game seconds yields ~100 minerals. Additionally scouting with early lings is cheaper and more effective (2 scouts for 50 mins). I 'd rather have later speedlings than a later pool :-) So 10 pool to me looks like a very flexible and economic build, I trade early game safety and option for early agression against a later speed. On large maps actually an overpool is more efficient as the timigs shift some seconds, so overpool inject is in time to fight early harrass. | ||
|
Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
| ||
|
BlizzrdSlave
161 Posts
my first 10 games in SC2 I saw the obvious advantage in an early queen, but this went by the wayside as I naturally attuned to more standard builds through trial and error. However, dont underestimate the 10 pool. you get out 4 extra larvae a full cycle sooner than ZvZ standard openers, and against terran or protoss, this means a slightly earlier saturation with another cycle of larvae popping sooner, meaning 2 rax or other very early aggression can be held off with 8 lings jumping out just about the time they get to your base. On the other hand, if they have tried and FE or, a protoss specifically, has been slow about getting their wall up, you can force them to spend early resources on defense and mess with their build timing, possibly even kill them outright with good micro, and certainly destroy parts of their wall. This does not work on giant maps like tardalrim, but on maps like metalopolis or shakuras, can work ~50% of the time if you do it blindly. Its like an eco heavy ling cheese rush. However, it has the advantage that you can either morph drones for higher saturation sooner, or morph lings to punish some risky play. the 11 overpool is much less capable of punishing risky play or very early aggression. In doing both, you want a decisive advantage that affords you minimal losses while getting rid of their strategy, which will cost them in the long run. As a rule, if I know nothing about the other player, and no scouting info can be accurately had early on, I go 10 pool v Z, 13 V T, and either 15 or 15 FE/14pool v P on 4 location maps. I go for more eco earlier on larger maps, where any rushing from either side will be almost useless, and for earlier pool on shorter maps, where I can either defend a rush, rush myself, or get early high saturation. Seems to work. I should've clarified that I get pool before OL at 10. thats what makes it extremely fast eco or rush defense. | ||
|
RobCorso
United States111 Posts
| ||
|
metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
Likewise, the 12overpool-DET build should generally NOT be used. It gives you up to 35 minerals more than the 11overpool, but results in up to 2 fewer larvae, which is not a good trade-off. Ok, I haven't done a spreadsheet here or anything, but something's bugging me about this claim. 11 Overpool wastes some larva regen; I want to say it sits at the max 3 larva for about 10 more seconds than 12overpool-DET, which is around 60% of one larva generated. In return it gets a pool (and therefore Queen) about 6 seconds earlier. Spawn larva produces 4 larva every 40 seconds, so 1 larva every 10 seconds, so by delaying the pool we're looking at around 60% less of one larva generated. Which is to say I'm calculating +0.6 -0.6 = exactly the same larva generated between 11 Overpool and 12Overpool-DET. Where do you get "2 fewer larvae"? | ||
|
BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
| ||
|
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On August 18 2011 04:54 metroid composite wrote: Ok, I haven't done a spreadsheet here or anything, but something's bugging me about this claim. 11 Overpool wastes some larva regen; I want to say it sits at the max 3 larva for about 10 more seconds than 12overpool-DET, which is around 60% of one larva generated. In return it gets a pool (and therefore Queen) about 6 seconds earlier. Spawn larva produces 4 larva every 40 seconds, so 1 larva every 10 seconds, so by delaying the pool we're looking at around 60% less of one larva generated. Which is to say I'm calculating +0.6 -0.6 = exactly the same larva generated between 11 Overpool and 12Overpool-DET. Where do you get "2 fewer larvae"? 11 overpool idles larvae creation for ~5 to 7 seconds. if you drone micro for better income, you can reduce this even more. Regarding larvae: larvae spawns 10 seconds earlier throughout the early game. So each 40 seconds thee 11 overpool is actually 4 larvae ahead for 10 seconds. if you do then average this over 6 minute, it turns to be out to be more "larvae rich" (i don't agree). Actually 12 det overpool gets the same amount of larvae, but 10 (are you sure about this timing?) seconds later. In my opinion in real games timings are more important than +- 50 minerals income. So i am going for 10-overpool in order to get my expansion and lings out earlier. Getting the expansion down ~15 seconds earlier also results in one more larvae generated. Additionally i like to kill the scout and scout with initial lings as soon as possible, so the ~10 seconds pool delay between 11 overpool and 10 overpool do matter to me more than losing an early larvae. Earlier lings = earlier safe expansion = more larvae+income = earlier queen = more options (e.g. all in against ffe). | ||
| ||
