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On September 20 2011 05:17 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:13 Macpo wrote:On September 20 2011 05:03 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:01 Macpo wrote:
Apparently, French law allows any worker to retract from a contract within 30 days.
To give my 2 pence opinion, why couldn't someone change his mind? Every one does. and here it does not have any serious consequences. There isn't much at stake, no big deal, no money loss... just promises and business honour (i.e. nothing). Of course, Col are disappointed, but no one is dead.
How does this not have serious consequenses? Like coL states this would create a precedent that players can just come and go as they want. Do you seriously see that working well? There is absolutely no risk whatsoever that players can just come and go as they want... 1. players can actually already come and go as they want, because if they don't want to play, no one can force them, all they can do is stop paying them; 2. it's just that they are getting paid, so they prefer not to go "as they want" and stay where they are paid. 3. I can promise you stephano will do it once, not twice, because it's a very annoying situation for him. Now if you can't understand that someone may change his mind... But I have remarked, there is always some kind of hysteria when someone is doing things not as expected... People start promising the entire world will collapse and then nothing happens, because this is the smallest event ever (the bigger one being Stephano beats MMA  ) ... Yeah and then they run into a new team 2 weeks into their contract that wants to pay the player even more, you think it'd be beneficial to the scene if said player can just leave his current team and go stay with a new team "Because they are getting paid". ? It's not promises about the entire world going to shit, it's just a bad development and in the long run it WILL hurt esports. Why the fuck do you think KeSPA exists in S.korea, why do you think there are international sport organisations regulating this in any other sport?
Well if we want to be coherent, the main problem is that Sc2 is becoming an activity with a lot of money, with a "star system" where a few individuals get a lot of money, have a very high visibility, which gives them some power of decision, etc. In that situation, it is quite inevitable that these stars make their decisions as they wish.
If you want to fix that, instead of complaining on someone's immorality, you'd better ask to remove money from Sc2 (which of course will never happen). Having some kind of institution regulating will have very limited efficiency (like regulation of sport never managed to prevent athlete drug use since sports exist in Ancient Greece), because the causes will still be here.
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On September 20 2011 05:29 DertoQq wrote:
(i keep quoting some of what he is saying)
"if you are afraid for mille, don't worry, we don't risk anything"
"Col are going to realize they legally have nothing against us"
"Why didn't Col came yesterday talk to us before signing the contract ?"
"if you are afraid for mille, don't worry, we don't risk anything"
risk.... what... wat
"Col are going to realize they legally have nothing against us"
Just because coL might "realize they legally have nothing against" them. there are still going to be bigger repercussions
"Why didn't Col came yesterday talk to us before signing the contract ?"
Why are they dodging them now then. ... Wow Durrrrrr
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On September 20 2011 05:31 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:27 SlaveboyZerg wrote:
Stupid move by Stephano. Noone will touch him after this.
I will probably get banned for saying this. Nope, you will be banned for saying that you will be banned though.
You might get banned for saying he will get banned.
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Why do they even mention the time when the contract was signed? Why does it matter that it was at 5am? If I decide to run someone over at 5am, will I be off the hook since it was so early in the morning?
If I have to make an important decision, I'll hold off until my head is clear. Learn to take responsibility for your actions.
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On September 20 2011 05:30 FaRess wrote:
Live Report : Llewellys stated again that coL move ( at least making stephano sign the contract) came out of nowhere, and the fact that coL wants to talk now is a little bit silly, they could have talked to us before doing what they did at 5 am (CEST)
Considering they were going back and forth for a long time, I'm calling bullocks on that one. That, or Mill management seriously wanted coL/Stephano to contact them like 5 minutes before the contract was to be signed, which is ridiculous.
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The real losers in this are the fans, in my opinion. Stephano has been practically non-existent at major tournaments despite showing a lot of promise. I fail to see how staying with an insular group like millennium will change that, while complexity throws their players in tourneys all over the globe.
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On September 20 2011 05:30 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:28 Charger wrote:
1.6 million ESPORTS dollars to whoever can actually find and provide a reliable source for the 'Contracts don't mean anything for 30 days (1 week, 2 weeks, whatev) in France' clause/law. this sort of thing is pretty common in various EU legal systems, but mainly for consumer contracts as opposed to contracts for employment
I'm honestly not trying to say it's not true, I just want to see where this information is coming from since I can't find anything close to confirming this.
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the french have laws to protect and allow them to pull this shit? LOL
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On September 20 2011 05:23 LRM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:18 Brio-emp wrote:Llewellys (millenium manager) has said on his stream that the contract had no value, missing many important clauses (ie : no retractation clause). He also said he was not very happy the contract was signed at 3am (french hour), and without contacting the team (his team). Now Stephano has signed a "real" contract (working contract ? don't really know the way to say). If COL goes to justice what will i do ? Nothing, the contract has no value. COL says Millenium does not answer to their mail, well, i'm streaming now, i'm not going to make lucifron and hasuobs (they were playing a koth for some money) wait. In france we say that The best cure is prevention. And when you don't want to have problems, you don't do something like signing a contract in the middle of the night and putting it on teamliquid.net just to be sure to get it... I won't say millenium did things the best way, i don't say stephano did do things the good way, but complexity is not better... You don't think the same way at 6 PM and at 5 AM. Stephano did not have a better contract than what was planned, we just showed him that the contract with COL was missing things like "look here, they say this, but they don't say anything if this or that". Well my english is bad, and i was translating as i was listening him speaking on his stream after the "Défi Winamax" (Lucifron vs HasuObs), so he said a bit more, but i was too slow to write everything. Everything was not said in this order, as i added the last sentences with what i had writting on a paper, but didn't have the time to write here first. EDIT : added a missing word Was also listening to Llewellys the millenium manager, and quote is true.
I like how they're addressing this as if he first laid eyes on the contract at 3AM and had no prior knowledge of what was in it, and was forced to sign it at that time. You're doing business with a North American company, you can't expect them to conduct business on your timeframe.
According to coL he had 18 days to mull it over, consider counter offers, talk with teammates, ask questions, and review the terms of the agreement. This wasn't a midnight raid on Stephano with a gun to his head forcing him to sign something he would regret.
For crying out loud the guy was on Skype assuring coL he wouldn't change his mind again. This is incredibly waffletastic and none of it makes sense.
Whether coL or Millenium are to blame, there's no doubt that Stephano's indecisiveness made this far more difficult than it needed to be.
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Well with everything coming to light I can say pretty soundly that I am no longer a fan of stephano and have moved from being indifferent about mill to generally disliking them.
Stephano now has 0 chance of every moving to a team outside of france. ggnore
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On September 20 2011 05:31 Garnet wrote:
This sounds quite similar to the Puma situation. I just hope we don't lose a great talent in Stephano and he gets to play in more international tournaments.
this sounds vaguely familiar in that the teams went behind each other's backs so an extent,
with the exception that that time the player had a head on his shoulders and made his own decision
dont forget EG had to work around a language barrier we probably arent working with here.
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in fact, Llewellys thinks it isn't even worth replying to coL
in short, that is Millenium pov:
- coL makes a sneaky move contacting Stephano and making him sign a contract at night without contacting with them
- Mill people gets up and gets aware of the situation, talking to Stephano and convincing him to change back is decision. without any raise.
- coL is angry, and pull out the contract argument.
- Mill : "well, good luck with that piece of paper that is not even a real labor contract".
Llewellys also states that he is open to discussion, he just regrets that coL didn't went to speak to him yesterday...
coL should be ashamed, and shouldn't play the victims ...
If they had done this properly in the first place, none of this will have happened.
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Let's face it, it's a game played by mostly immature kids. So this kind of stupid behaviour is predicatable.
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On September 20 2011 05:32 f0rzaa wrote:
the french have laws to protect and allow them to pull this shit? LOL
The US allows people to sign illegal contracts and have them be legal? LOL
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On September 20 2011 05:31 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:29 DertoQq wrote:
(i keep quoting some of what he is saying)
"if you are afraid for mille, don't worry, we don't risk anything"
"Col are going to realize they legally have nothing against us"
"Why didn't Col came yesterday talk to us before signing the contract ?"
"Why didn't Col came yesterday talk to us before signing the contract ?" Why are they dodging them now then. ... Wow Durrrrrr
Well, "why are you dodging Col ?" was the initial question and what I quoted was the answer : D
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On September 20 2011 05:30 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:28 Charger wrote:
1.6 million ESPORTS dollars to whoever can actually find and provide a reliable source for the 'Contracts don't mean anything for 30 days (1 week, 2 weeks, whatev) in France' clause/law. this sort of thing is pretty common in various EU legal systems, but mainly for consumer contracts as opposed to contracts for employment
This isn't true, In france the "période d'essai" (Trial Period ??) is not mandatory so it's not always true
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I don't know which side is in the right or not, but it does seem a bit silly to jump on TL or whatever to announce their new acquisition so damn quick. From what I know, most organizations wait awhile before announcing it, seems like coL made a post as soon as the contract was signed. Which makes sense from Mill side. Manager wakes up not hearing about the contract being final, logs on TL/Reddit and all of a sudden sees "Stephano joins Complexity!"
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We went a full month without anymore drama and now its starting to crop up again. Stephano probably should have made up his mind and stuck with his choice but now there really isnt a right answer for him. If he just goes to complexity then it looks like he doenst want to be there whereas if he returns to Millenium then he looks bad for signing a contract then backing out of it.
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This is insane. From reading all of the OP and from what I know of the scene, I am going to currently have to side with Complexity on this. They were kind enough in the past with contract issues and I doubt they would threaten legal action if they were in the wrong here. This is just getting stupid and convoluted though.
I hope they all come to some kind of agreement where the players and teams are mutually satisfied though.
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EPT
