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On October 24 2011 15:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:14 gtrsrs wrote:
lmao wit's end on rammus
if you really need an AS item on rammus just get zeal and leave it at that It doesn't matter what you build. If you're seeing support-level gold, you have to play as a support. Nobody is going to care about a melee DPS that's 5k gold behind every carry on the other team. He's just going to get exploded. With that kind of gold differential, your only option is to tank out and be a taunt-bot.
eh
honver goes wriggle's -> phantom dancer -> tank but obviously he knows rammus in and out
i think rammus can definitely make use of the AS/MS from zeal but wit's end is wayyy too expensive for rammus
i personally would go aegis on any jungler that can make use of it (basically anyone that's not noc/pirate probably) but if tapioca MUST go for an AS item it's got to be zeal not wit's
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2011 15:14 gtrsrs wrote:
also just from looking at the score sheets you need to work on your picks
Agree with this. Their picks seem much more well-coordinated than yours.
On October 24 2011 15:19 gtrsrs wrote:
eh
honver goes wriggle's -> phantom dancer -> tank but obviously he knows rammus in and out
i think rammus can definitely make use of the AS/MS from zeal but wit's end is wayyy too expensive for rammus
i personally would go aegis on any jungler that can make use of it (basically anyone that's not noc/pirate probably) but if tapioca MUST go for an AS item it's got to be zeal not wit's
IIRC Honver also generally keeps up on farm when he plays Rammus. If you look at tournament/high Elo solo queue games, most DPS junglers generally are getting at least 2/3+ CS compared to their laners--essentially enough to be able to remain a threat as a melee DPS/anti-carry without hurting their laners too much (in the case of Saint, who grabs farm fairly aggressively, you can see his farm virtually on-par with his laners sometimes). Any less and they're adapting their builds accordingly.
It comes down to adapting toward how the game is playing out. I don't think playing junglers as a semi-carry is necessarily always better or always worse than playing them as initiators/supports (depends on the team-comps, generally), but you have to adapt your play to the amount of farm you're getting (and of course, the team should be adapting how much farm you're getting to the team-comps in question). There's a reason why TheOddOne goes double gp5 on Nocturne while Saint rushes straight to his big items, and its not "TheOddOne likes gp5 and Saint doesn't".
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I definitely adapted my build wrong, and should have just build aegis or straight up warmogs on my rammus. To be honest though, I feel like it wouldn't have helped tremendously and I wanted the damage because we had AP Janna.
Things didn't go according to plan, but at the time I felt like if I went tanky then our damage output is too weak.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2011 15:23 Juicyfruit wrote:
I definitely adapted my build wrong, and should have just build aegis or straight up warmogs on my rammus. To be honest though, I feel like it wouldn't have helped tremendously and I wanted the damage because we had AP Janna.
Things didn't go according to plan, but at the time I felt like if I went tanky then our damage output is too weak.
I'm not saying that was your fault 100%. Like I said, I think AP Janna having the highest CS on a team like that at 31 minutes is wrong. She's a great lane dominator and has strong teamfight presence, but when your team needs damage, she needs to be ceding farm to the actual carries.
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Our picks are weak because we don't really have a very good pool of champion we are confident with. We just wanted to play who we could play at a very reasonable skill. I do think that's a fairly large problem.
I was practicing Trundle a lot before the tournament, so the first game was comfortable. Game 2 and 3 I feel like I wasn't farming enough to be relevant,
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On October 24 2011 15:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
LEAVE ME ALONE LOL T_T
I lost the game for us game three. Game two was just as a result us not knowing how to properly teamfight with Janna ult vs AoE spam and top died to a level 3 amumu gank which we didn't expect.
Game 2 I actually felt pretty good about even with that score but I can post the replays tomorrow and I'll gladly take all your inputs regarding that because I'm still transitioning into a teamplayer :>
Holy shit. I was just joking cuz I only looked at your scores, but WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT RAMMUS BUILD?
Rammus kills creeps using his w and letting them kill themselves. You dont need wriggles. You dont need aspeed. You need tank shit.
Saint has been going cloth+3 into boots, philo, hog, shurelias, tank.
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On October 24 2011 15:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
LEAVE ME ALONE LOL T_T
I lost the game for us game three. Game two was just as a result us not knowing how to properly teamfight with Janna ult vs AoE spam and top died to a level 3 amumu gank which we didn't expect.
Game 2 I actually felt pretty good about even with that score but I can post the replays tomorrow and I'll gladly take all your inputs regarding that because I'm still transitioning into a teamplayer :> Holy shit. I was just joking cuz I only looked at your scores, but WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT RAMMUS BUILD? Rammus kills creeps using his w and letting them kill themselves. You dont need wriggles. You dont need aspeed. You need tank shit. Saint has been going cloth+3 into boots, philo, hog, shurelias, tank.
You dont need it, you just become a legit bruiser and if they let you near their carry (AD or AP, doesnt matter) you WILL kill them. (given you get wriggles + random attack item, I usually get triforce)
Do it with proper runeset up, and rejoice at how strong it is
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2011 15:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
LEAVE ME ALONE LOL T_T
I lost the game for us game three. Game two was just as a result us not knowing how to properly teamfight with Janna ult vs AoE spam and top died to a level 3 amumu gank which we didn't expect.
Game 2 I actually felt pretty good about even with that score but I can post the replays tomorrow and I'll gladly take all your inputs regarding that because I'm still transitioning into a teamplayer :> Holy shit. I was just joking cuz I only looked at your scores, but WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT RAMMUS BUILD? Rammus kills creeps using his w and letting them kill themselves. You dont need wriggles. You dont need aspeed. You need tank shit. Saint has been going cloth+3 into boots, philo, hog, shurelias, tank.
Double gp5->Tank and Wriggles->DPS play differently. Both are fine, but they fill different roles.
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wriggles is fucking legit on rammus. thank you TL rammus thread for showing me the wriggles light
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On October 24 2011 15:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 15:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
LEAVE ME ALONE LOL T_T
I lost the game for us game three. Game two was just as a result us not knowing how to properly teamfight with Janna ult vs AoE spam and top died to a level 3 amumu gank which we didn't expect.
Game 2 I actually felt pretty good about even with that score but I can post the replays tomorrow and I'll gladly take all your inputs regarding that because I'm still transitioning into a teamplayer :> Holy shit. I was just joking cuz I only looked at your scores, but WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT RAMMUS BUILD? Rammus kills creeps using his w and letting them kill themselves. You dont need wriggles. You dont need aspeed. You need tank shit. Saint has been going cloth+3 into boots, philo, hog, shurelias, tank.
Listen to this man, instead of the people trying to shove a wriggles down rammus's throat.
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2nd and 3rd games issues revolved a lot around our failure in teamfights and overall decision making. Obviously our picks could have been better. I'm going to buy galio next. He's really straight forward so npnp, I be king galio next tourny.
2nd game gandhi got ganked early (amumu at lvl 3) and gave FB. It was pretty unconventional. We could have prevented that a bit if we kept better tabs on where amumu was though. We only knew he did blue -> wolves -> wraiths standard route. We didn't know he didn't do golems and just ganked instead.
Morg could outpush me early levels. For the first 6 levels the wave was always at my tower, even with my autoing creeps to push it back. The rammus ganks were not too effective because of bind + black shield. This allowed morg to wander bot often while I was stuck pushing the wave back with tornado.
Chobz played too aggressively in a soraka lane. And coupled with FB top making enemy amumu not need to go top anymore (+ amumu having so much gold from kills), amumu just kept going bot along with morg who instapushed the wave mid pre-7 (where janna can finally clear wave) and would dive bot. From there they could get drag and we couldn't position ourselves properly because their AoE would be able to destroy us no matter which choke we went in from. It just kept on snowballing to where they could dive anywhere, no matter what, even with janna ulti to push them away.
Part of the reason I had the most farm was only because tornados clear waves so fast. So whenever they were pushing our tower I'd tonado the wave to instaclear it so they couldn't push.
Game 3 Tap was far too aggressive. Tap ganked garen to *almost* get FB but both gandhi and tap dove garen together while we were yelling that rammus was going top. It ended with garen dying but him getting a double kill, including FB.
Mid I played really really bad. I was really tired and didn't play to the best of my ability. Kept getting hit by stuns because of that. :/ Like I still didn't fully "lose" because anivia still didn't have too much farm in lane but I got ganked quite a few times in lane and didn't get as much farm as I should have. Garen silence screwed me up that entire game.
loae also got caught a lot or died to save chobz. I'm not sure fully the issues chobz and loae were having other than cait + sona is a dick lane.
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Sion gets banned out and BP can't carry anymore. Shit happens when you're a one-hit wonder ;P
But seriously, I think our play this tournament compared to last one was definitely a huge improvement. I've noticed our teamwork is getting better in practice too. Things are going well.
Sorry I couldn't stay on last night, but I was falling asleep in my chair just sitting there listening to you guys play, haha.
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Rammus discussion aside (the build really does work, but I won't argue that point until I get better results in these games), I do have some comments about our overall play.
Me
- the good: I'm delicious
- bad: need to go for more unconventional jungling pathways if the situation calls for it. My jungling path fairly predictable and it's really starting to show since I like to play like SV and rarely miss creep camps when they respawn, but for the most part I need to "stretch my wings" so to speak and do more random ass stuff.
that gank on garen in game 3 wasn't a bad play BUT I just fucked it up really bad by missing Q and I didn't account for ignite. I think overall my ganks are fine and I rarely end up wasting time, but I need to practice high-precision skirmishes a little more.
I need more precision when it comes to counter jungling. If I see an enemy jungle gank I should be aware of how much that throws off their camp clearing time and should try to snatch something from them everytime they attempt a gank, even if I am not in the immediate viscinity I should know that if he wasted 20 seconds ganking top for instance, that he'll be around ~10 seconds late to his double golems the next time around (since he'll be late to his wolves) and I can jack that from him the next time it respawns.
Sucks at jungle timing; estimate almost everything but don't keep track of exact time zzz
BP
- the good: can farm well, won't do anything stupid when behind, good teamfight awareness, good response time in general which is important for AP mid
- the bad: sometimes overextended in lane to farm where you just stand in the middle of the creepwaves and last hit stuff, for the most part can get away because it's mid but it can cost you a flash; should minimize your openness to gank. by standing back and moving up to last hit only, although it does mean you are more likely to mistime the last hits.
Teamfight awareness sometimes wasted when playing a high-skillcap (that's why can go godmode with Sion huehue almost no mechanical requirement); best way to improve is to just teamfight together more and use a lot high skill-cap champions until it stabilizes.
Fairly limited pool of comfortable AP mids that you are confident with, and I don't know if you have a difficult time transitioning from one to another
Chobz
- the good: good positioning, strong last hitting, rarely loses his lane
- the bad: strong overall play sometimes tainted by moments of extreme derp (tries to imitate hotshot by 1v2ing for no good reason, l0l)
Ghandisauce
- the good: strong at 1v1ing, definitely can keep up the pressure when he`s ahead
Versatile at playing different champions
Very good at assisting me when I gank (cough BP bad cough)
- the bad: really susceptible to ganks. When you've pushed your lane too far you shouldn`t try to farm at enemy tower and just either b or go help out mid. Need to be more aware of when someone can gank.
weird builds :D
Terrible at using teleport >.>
Loae:
- the good: #1 forum shittalker. Insightful and good cv's. Helps Chobz get farmed pretty well.
- the bad: got banned from TL.net forum. Feeds a lot because he's so easy to kill for some reason. Will walk into the middle of teamfights as support Sona and die instantly, and then complain that he can't buy oracle because he'll die, buys it anyways, and dies huehue :D
I think overall, your support is a little bit weaker in lane than ideal in the offensive department. When you lane with Chobz, your lane gets invariably farmed but so does the enemy carry, and your lane is more often than not being pushed which is the opposite of what happens when I lane with Chobz or Rhav. I don't watch bot lane much and I don't know what's going on, but generally speaking your lane gets shoved a little too much.
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I'd actually like a quick evaluation on my play too tap, if you don't mind. Promise not to get butthurt lol
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In g3 this is pretty much what happened in our lane, cait auto attacked our lane super far back and just poked at me if I tried to auto so I had to resort to Q farming the waves. My lane couldn't apply any pressure, I don't think loae used any skills besides heal in lane except that one time rammus came at lvl 3.
Loae died once in lane because rammus went around and we had a delayed 4v4 at bot? The rest of his deaths were him being like lvl 7-10 instagibber whole game in team fights or before them xD.
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That bot lane situation was partly loae not abusing Ezreal + Cow's far superior level 2 vs Caitlyn Sona (the kill threat is very high and neither cait nor sona can interrupt the burst for the other and both squishy), and partly me not coming bottom to help shove it back out, since Ezreal is really bad when he has a lot of creeps pushing on him.
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Are we going to see tap on support and loae back in jungle for some games?
From what I've experienced in games so far is that I'm more suited to taps more aggressive style lol.
I'm gonna practice vayne and graves more. What do you guys think about corki now?
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Been playing some games as Xerath. Definitely getting more comfortable with him. I'll probably bit him and and him to my roster.
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ChoBz's girlfriend is the best support, imo.
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What about his sick, hot sister?
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EPT
