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On October 27 2012 04:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:36 RezJ wrote:On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that. I see what you're saying. But I think Blizzard is smart enough to know the community isn't "going to hell", and they would see it is - an expression of their customers' dissatisfaction. Just look at the shitstorm over Mass Effect 3's ending. And they fixed that shit. So why not? Most of the professionals who reported on the Mass Effect 3 ending believe that the changed ending was in the works all along. The turn around time on the change, additional artwork and most importantly additional voice work, denoted that the game was pushed out the door before the ending was completed. Three months is not enough time to do all the work they did on that ending, unless they had it in production before the game launched.
Okay, so maybe that was a bad example. But the point I was trying to make is this:
On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
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On October 27 2012 04:59 ChuCky.Ca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
iNcontroL: You seem to still be looking at this purely from financial motivation. Why should anyone care about helping market a game they are dissatisfied with? In fact, helping Blizzard market the game in its current state just sends the message to them that everything is great and we want more of the same.
Most people want changes to improve the gameplay or viewing experience, you just want more customers. It's a difference in priorities. seriously I saw a post 2 days ago describing your troll nature and there is no point argueing with you. But 2 days later here you are still going just stop people..
"Troll" is a synonym for "someone who is right, but I wish they weren't".
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On October 27 2012 05:05 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:59 ChuCky.Ca wrote:On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
iNcontroL: You seem to still be looking at this purely from financial motivation. Why should anyone care about helping market a game they are dissatisfied with? In fact, helping Blizzard market the game in its current state just sends the message to them that everything is great and we want more of the same.
Most people want changes to improve the gameplay or viewing experience, you just want more customers. It's a difference in priorities. seriously I saw a post 2 days ago describing your troll nature and there is no point argueing with you. But 2 days later here you are still going just stop people.. "Troll" is a synonym for "someone who is right, but I wish they weren't".
my point is made
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I think everyone just needs to calm the fuck down, this game is amazing, esports as a whole is growing. That benefits sc2.
Just because more people watch NFL, doesn't mean it threatens the existence of MLB.
As long as esports is growing, everything is good.
Another point not too many people bring up is that LoL is free, therefor people with less disposable income play it. Starcraft is not free, therefore people with disposable income play it. Sponsors like to appeal to people with money.
Now, everyone go play some ladder games.. and turn off your adblock when watching streams, less QQ more pewpew.
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On October 27 2012 05:02 RezJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:51 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 04:36 RezJ wrote:On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that. I see what you're saying. But I think Blizzard is smart enough to know the community isn't "going to hell", and they would see it is - an expression of their customers' dissatisfaction. Just look at the shitstorm over Mass Effect 3's ending. And they fixed that shit. So why not? Most of the professionals who reported on the Mass Effect 3 ending believe that the changed ending was in the works all along. The turn around time on the change, additional artwork and most importantly additional voice work, denoted that the game was pushed out the door before the ending was completed. Three months is not enough time to do all the work they did on that ending, unless they had it in production before the game launched. Okay, so maybe that was a bad example. But the point I was trying to make is this: Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
its one thing to complain publicly. Its another thing to say the game is gonna die if we don't twitter bomb the fuck outta blizzard.
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On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that.
YES! Thank you!
I've thought Destiny made good/reasonable points about UI problems and the game being less fun for average players, but the whole "This game will be dead before they're done releasing expansions" was ridiculous. There's been no evidence produced to back up these claims - show me rapidly declining tournament numbers, miniscule prize pools, a ton of teams disbanding or something. Everyone seemed to just take his word that the game was going to die as the truth and we went from being excited about GSL and OSL to everyone on Reddit saying we were doomed and the scene was dying.
Maybe the timing of the reddit post with SlayerS disbandment caused this, but it was kind of scary to see people go from enjoying starcraft to thinking the entire scene was screwed over one reddit post with no numerical evidence to back it up.
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On October 27 2012 05:05 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 04:59 ChuCky.Ca wrote:On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits.
iNcontroL: You seem to still be looking at this purely from financial motivation. Why should anyone care about helping market a game they are dissatisfied with? In fact, helping Blizzard market the game in its current state just sends the message to them that everything is great and we want more of the same.
Most people want changes to improve the gameplay or viewing experience, you just want more customers. It's a difference in priorities. seriously I saw a post 2 days ago describing your troll nature and there is no point argueing with you. But 2 days later here you are still going just stop people.. "Troll" is a synonym for "someone who is right, but I wish they weren't".
does that mean you admit you are a troll?
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This dicussions drained itself out, everyone has their own view/opinion. And its not likely anyone will give up. But in the end we all want one - starcraft to be a better game. Lets just stop.
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On October 27 2012 05:14 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 05:02 RezJ wrote:On October 27 2012 04:51 Plansix wrote:On October 27 2012 04:36 RezJ wrote:On October 27 2012 04:30 iNcontroL wrote:
you seeing mob mentality/sky is falling stuff as a good thing is where we just flat differ in opinions.
Complaining to blizzard with the mantra "or else it will die" is not going to create a better community/experience. THAT is my main point. Complaining to blizzard is something gamers do/will do no matter what. Change will always be desired. To date there has never been a game that made everyone happy BOOM. I'm fine with that. Complaining to blizzard with a gun at your own head IS not good. IF you disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.
I am arguing on behalf of multiresponses and community involvement beyond twitter bombs. Destiny is arguing on behalf of martyrdom and doom and gloom as a means to an end. Fuck that. I see what you're saying. But I think Blizzard is smart enough to know the community isn't "going to hell", and they would see it is - an expression of their customers' dissatisfaction. Just look at the shitstorm over Mass Effect 3's ending. And they fixed that shit. So why not? Most of the professionals who reported on the Mass Effect 3 ending believe that the changed ending was in the works all along. The turn around time on the change, additional artwork and most importantly additional voice work, denoted that the game was pushed out the door before the ending was completed. Three months is not enough time to do all the work they did on that ending, unless they had it in production before the game launched. Okay, so maybe that was a bad example. But the point I was trying to make is this: On October 27 2012 04:54 Portlandian wrote:
Complaining quietly or in private will accomplish nothing.
Complaining loudly and publicly (negative publicity) is the only way to get changes to be made. Sure, it might hurt Blizzard's profitability, and by extension related businesses like EG. That's the point. That's why it is effective. They will take action to protect their profits. its one thing to complain publicly. Its another thing to say the game is gonna die if we don't twitter bomb the fuck outta blizzard.
It may not die, but it sure looks like it will be boring.
Significant changes need to be made. Only Blizzard can make those changes. Only threatening Blizzard's profits will push them to make any changes. People whose personal income is tied to Blizzards profits are upset at the idea.
That is what this all boils down to.
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So lets get away from all the self-interested (Often valid but becoming tiresome) arguments between people who make a living from this game & their trolls and lets just have have a casual (In this case me) say a little about THE STATE OF STARCRAFT 2 from my perspective because I'm just about literate and I feel pretty FUCKING IMPASSIONED, a tad sentimental and I seem to be coming up in this argument a fair bit. It will likely end up being a short, perhaps cute and at times self-indulgent mini-story about my life in RTS but why not lets have a break from business, money, esports, stream figures and all that boring stuff that the pros and the trolls keep going over and over.
You guys think Blizzard is bad? hahahahaaahahaa! You must never have played this game Dawn of War and one of its finest moments Didn't expect those nerdchills woahh
, gonna post a couple more:
Skiller instinct
Skiller instinct 2
OK so...
"reric make bug" - If any of you got to know this phrase (popularised on DoWSanctuary) coined by the "bonjwa" of Dawn of War "SeleCT" - then you will know the feeling of true frustration at a developer.
I and many others watched an RTS that with the right refinements and support could IF THEY HAD LISTENED TO THEIR FANS or simply just GIVEN A SHIT been an RTS or a sequel to compete with SC2 today. I spent 6 or 7 years prior to SC2 playing DoW and I feel like relatively Blizzard treat us like emperors! (I know they don't but seriously they're ok)
But thats MY perspective and so is this: You guys are so fucking lucky that SC2 emulates the brilliance of SC:BW so closely because DoW2 was (aside from the having better graphics - woo) to DoW1 what a damp ridden magnolia wall is to the Sistine chapel. DoW2 is horrible. Imagine going from base-building with a fully structured tech tree to having one barracks from which you can build men...or tanks, its not even as good as an SC2 custom game . So DoW1 itself only required about 50-80apm but it was awesome and very tactically driven...DoW2 doesn't even require you to be awake. Sad, sad space mens were made the day that game was released...
So whats the relevance in all this? Well people are getting pretty wild in this community over "ESPORTS" and all this emphasis on being THE "ESPORT" and how many followers does your "ESPORT" have and what is good for "ESPORTS" and how big is your "ESPORT"??? To me this is what is REALLY hurting e-sports. The vigilante bandwagon started on reddit is hilariously misinformed. Dudes, SC2 is not going to die unless blizzard fuck it up and don't try to un-fuck it. Heres a little of my background just try and empathise....
OK I consider myself a competitive casual, I'm 26 years old, I have a job and other interests, i don't live with my parents. I am exactly the kind of person who loves to improve at the game and I ladder when I feel like I can play close to my best (Nothing angers me more than playing bad when i'm tired). I hover around in Diamond league and every single game I try to have a macro game because all ins are not fun for me. I understand the game well and I love watching big events. I love the passion of people like Artosis and it makes me wish I had switched to BW earlier and got in on all this. I love parts of the community (even parts of reddit) I love community shows too but heres a complaint:
- Usually the only personality that I dislike from this episode is destiny but EP57 of ITG was horrible. EG wasn't great for me the attitudes of both Geoff and Greg were pretty poor, Destiny came across as the idiot role-model for angry nerds and DJ Wheat came across as a complete hooligan at times. The guy who came across best was Painuser and usually I find his parroting of the other hosts really fucking annoying but you know what, Painuser I never liked you, I probably still don't want to see you and HD cast (Although with someone else I think you could do ok) but to me you seemed like the only guy out there representing Starcraft 2 and not your own ego.
And heres the positive that I didn't expect to come out of this:
-SOTG has been excellent. I loved the old SOTG especially Geoff but honestly after the ego and rage of ITG, SOTG was a breath of the freshest air in all of Rivendell. Now that I think of it, JP as Elrond anyone? I've already seen an Apollo-legolas picture somewhere on reddit, QXC and and Wolf could easily do Aragorn and sam between them - OMG SOTG IS TURNING INTO THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING - Artosis will be back at the turn of the tide. YES.
I'm pretty sure most of the changes the game needs are coming in HOTS,being worked on or are already here. Awesome they listened and are listening
What we need for SC2 as an "ESPORT"
- So many stupid people to stop having an opinion on esports.
What we need for SC2 to continue being an awesome game:
-Blizzard to keep up the good work on their balance patches (Please look at infestors!!)
-Blizzard to not fuck it up by trying to appease all the bandwagoners.
-Blizzard IF they fuck up the game to invest time, energy and resources into un-fucking it.
-Blizzard take advice from the right kind of pros (ie: Grubby)
People like me will always support Starcraft2 and as long as Blizzard continue to do a good job and listen to the right suggestions they will continue to secure the future of the game. I'm not a blizzard fanboy by any means but I have respect for a company who made such an awesome game and continuously support it even if its not always what I WANT or what I THINK it shouldbe. This coming GSL season will be the first time I spend money on the game since I bought it. I can't wait.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
why isnt there pvp in diablo 3 yet
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Please bring back some of the old pillars, but keep qxc if possible.
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Will the RSS feed be resurrected in the future? I prefer consuming the episodes in audio form and I'm on Android so I haven't listened since March, when the last mp3 was posted to the RSS feed 
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On October 28 2012 01:06 theJob wrote:
Please bring back some of the old pillars, but keep qxc if possible.
Wrong show, buddy.
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On October 28 2012 00:46 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why isnt there pvp in diablo 3 yet
PvP isn't a main focus in an item hunt game like Diablo. But, that doesn't mean they aren't working on it. That game has so many flaws that PvP should be on the bottom of the list in terms of what fans want changed.
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On October 28 2012 01:39 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 00:46 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why isnt there pvp in diablo 3 yet PvP isn't a main focus in an item hunt game like Diablo. But, that doesn't mean they aren't working on it. That game has so many flaws that PvP should be on the bottom of the list in terms of what fans want changed.
what are reasons of diablo's failure? I heard there was a drama, previous diablo developers critisizing diablo 3. I didn't quite follow d3 after i learnt they were going to implement RMAH.
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On October 27 2012 02:33 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 01:26 bokeevboke wrote:On October 27 2012 01:02 iNcontroL wrote:On October 27 2012 00:10 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:53 nkr wrote:On October 26 2012 23:47 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:37 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 23:24 Domus wrote:On October 26 2012 23:11 bokeevboke wrote:
[quote]
Would it be ok if they removed all death animations from the game? Things just disappear whenever they're killed. Oh, and Lets remove shadows, trees, waters and all special effects. Cause we care about game being challenging, not fun, right?
Before you go telling me that I am troll, I just wanted to explain game can be fun and challenging at the same time. SC2 is challenging, very challenging, but not quite fun which I'm complaining about. I would not mind if those things were removed, no, but I play games that are not just about graphics :/. And some things can not exist in a single game, a game can't be both challenging and easy. A game can't cater the need of every type of player. You can't have a player that does not know that right-mouse button moves an unit and a player that has 300 APM playing a game that fulfills both their needs to the maximum, you get a compromise of a product that isn't fully enjoyable for either player. Why do you refer to 'fun' as 'easy'? What exactly is easy? Any Person vs Person game can't be easy by default, if other person sucks then its easy for you, if he is better, then its hard for you. Maybe you mean dumbed down? Is game need to be dumbed down in order to be fun? Why then bw and dota 1/2 are fun to play, eventhough mecanics are really difficult? I don't refer to fun as easy. You can't define fun, fun is different for different people. I think SC2 is fun, and while I don't play it anymore I did play it a lot, it is a great game. I played LoL for 2 minutes and deleted the game, I did not think it was fun, fun is different for different types of player. So that is why I used easy, or you could use casual. An experience that requires little effort or challenge, that is what a casual game is. Well apparently, many people here not finding SC2 fun. Cause you can see many people complaining recently. You're a happy person if you like sc2 as it is. But most of us do not, thats why forums are cluttering with these posts, thats why we agree with destiny and argue with idra/incontrol. People don't just randomly start complaining and jumping on bandwagon, there is always reason behind of it. There are two major flaws in your post: 1. People who are unhappy will make their voice heard. If you think 20 pages of 5 people saying the same thing over and over is "most of us" then I don't know what to say. If most of teamliquid would be unhappy this thread would have 1000 pages by now. People who are happy don't bother posting most of the time. 2. IdrA and iNcontroL never disagreed that there are a lot of things missing. What Destiny said is that all the power to change things were in blizzards hands, and therefore you have to harass them. The EG boys stated that blizzard won't do shit for you, so instead of whining you are better off actually trying to make things better on your own. No one has ever said this game is perfect. Least of all IdrA. I agree that idra is right most of the time than wrong. This whole discussion in last 3 pages started of me not agreeing with certain point of idra, which basically means "we shouldn't complain to blizzard, cause they won't do anything, and instead we should shut up in order to not to scare off sponsors". You can iterate to this post through quatation marks above. And you can look up in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375992, if you wanna know somewhat numbers of how much people are unhappy with sc2, also look up in reddit and youtube link of last podcast. Don't just claim that same person had made 10 posts in last pages. Which is plain ignorant in the whole situation we are having today. sigh I hate having to repeat myself but w/e.. idra and I never said "don't complain to blizzard" in fact we joked about how we've been doing that on all our shows/media longer/better than anyone. We've been doing it for over 2 years. HOWEVER never in a million years would we recommend that you rile up the community and tell them IF WE DON'T ACT NOW, THE GAME IS DEAD and then send the message "the only way to save this game is to get everyone to harass blizzard until we win" Nope. We don't like that method/message and we think the community can do more. People interpreted us as saying "don't do anything" or "don't complain to blizzard" and frankly that sucks. It's like a giant game of telephone. People are right now harassing me because they think I randomly said I got a raise.. instead of answering a question Steven posed -.- You seem to contradict yourself, you say you always used to complain to blizzard, but then you say community shouldn't do it now. It perplexes me, coz HoTS is coming up, its the most approriate time to make Blizzard listen and do somehing, they want their product to sell afterall. You said that you're getting a raise, which frankly I don't care about, but what I care about is you trying to make an illusion that everything is ok when its not. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid, retiring or changing their game. And check viewer count of streams on rightside bar. I never said game is dead, its just Destiny exaggerating, community is complaining about game being stale and boring. I can't help but to think you are some kind of insane test against my patience. NO. I DO NOT SAY DON'T COMPLAIN TO BLIZZARD NO NO NO. I say don't think ONLY complaining to blizzard is what you can do. DON'T think that you MUST complain to blizzard as your ONLY way to "keep this game alive" I stopped reading there but now I am reading the rest of your post and I wish I wasn't. Yep. Players are unpaid which is not mutually exclusive from what was going on at the beginning of the game when it was #1. Teams disbanding you say? Sounds like something has dated back to the beginning of SC2 and gaming in general. Players are switching games? What, you mean like they always have? The fact that moba is successful and doing well does not mean SC2 dies. It means gaming is on the rise.. something we should be happy about. Did you think this world needed SC2 to be the only playable esport for it to be good?
God you act like a fucking child......
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On October 28 2012 01:51 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 01:39 Urasim wrote:On October 28 2012 00:46 Liquid`Ret wrote:
why isnt there pvp in diablo 3 yet PvP isn't a main focus in an item hunt game like Diablo. But, that doesn't mean they aren't working on it. That game has so many flaws that PvP should be on the bottom of the list in terms of what fans want changed. what are reasons of diablo's failure? I heard there was a drama, previous diablo developers critisizing diablo 3. I didn't quite follow d3 after i learnt they were going to implement RMAH.
For me, it was pretty much the AH in general and items not being BOP or BOE at least. Means, as soon as you get to inferno mode, the whole game resolves more or less on buying/selling on the AH in a smart way, less on the actual gameplay, which is stupid.
We're being horribly off-topic though, I think Ret just wanted to troll all the Blizz-is-fault-whiners 
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