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On October 29 2012 16:04 B_Type13X2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 15:50 blug wrote:On October 29 2012 09:54 Sub40APM wrote:On October 29 2012 08:28 Going4Gold wrote:
djwheat and incontrol came out of that show looking bad, painuser and destiny came out looking like they knew what's going on in esports and idra just came out of it looking like idra.
Destiny did? wow. How can you say this? Of course Destiny came out looking good, atleast he came out looking good to the people who actually were paying attention to the argument rather than just agreeing with the people with louder voices. Destiny left the call abruptly and rudely... so what? The people he was arguing with were being childish and weren't taking Destiny seriously. I would of done the exact same thing in that situation. Destiny came out looking like an intelligent respectable fellow and so did PainUser. Infact after that... I grew a new respect for PainUser as a whole. Pain User agreed with some points but disgreed with others, however, atleast he was civil and was listening to Destiny. InControl is an intelligent guy, but he handled the situation wrong. He is better than that, but he got a bit riled up. Idra was just agreeing with InControl I felt. DJWheat... he just looked like he was trying to start a big commotion to get his show more exciting. I don't even think Destiny was really arguing the point that SC2 is dying so much, but he feels like SC2s potential is so much higher and I 100% agree with him. We as a community can only do so much to help the game, while Blizzard has 100% control as to how much this game succeeds. The only thing we gain out of endorsing Blizzards current way of implementing features is more features that are substandard. It's a sad truth that Blizzard won't change their ways so easily, however, if we bitch and moan and they realize that there investments in ESports are becoming jeopardized due to dodgy game releases, then perhaps they will change their minds. Perhaps people should stop looking at this thing so grimly and stop shutting down Destiny so easily. The things he are suggesting are only good for the community, it doesn't matter whether or not his efforts are futile. Except Destiny is arguing just that, he is saying that if they don't make the changes he is pretty much demanding that the game will be dead. It is hard to respect someones argument when it is that extreme.
He was arguing that it would be dead in comparison to the other games that are currently out. The game has so much more potential than it currently does.
I think the problem is people are construing it as though he was being extreme to the point where sc2 would be non existent. Of course it is always going to exist, Destiny isn't dumb. However, he's arguing that sc2 could be so much bigger than it currently is now, and that the future of sc2 is bleak in comparison of what it possibly could be.
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On October 29 2012 16:09 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 16:04 B_Type13X2 wrote:On October 29 2012 15:50 blug wrote:On October 29 2012 09:54 Sub40APM wrote:On October 29 2012 08:28 Going4Gold wrote:
djwheat and incontrol came out of that show looking bad, painuser and destiny came out looking like they knew what's going on in esports and idra just came out of it looking like idra.
Destiny did? wow. How can you say this? Of course Destiny came out looking good, atleast he came out looking good to the people who actually were paying attention to the argument rather than just agreeing with the people with louder voices. Destiny left the call abruptly and rudely... so what? The people he was arguing with were being childish and weren't taking Destiny seriously. I would of done the exact same thing in that situation. Destiny came out looking like an intelligent respectable fellow and so did PainUser. Infact after that... I grew a new respect for PainUser as a whole. Pain User agreed with some points but disgreed with others, however, atleast he was civil and was listening to Destiny. InControl is an intelligent guy, but he handled the situation wrong. He is better than that, but he got a bit riled up. Idra was just agreeing with InControl I felt. DJWheat... he just looked like he was trying to start a big commotion to get his show more exciting. I don't even think Destiny was really arguing the point that SC2 is dying so much, but he feels like SC2s potential is so much higher and I 100% agree with him. We as a community can only do so much to help the game, while Blizzard has 100% control as to how much this game succeeds. The only thing we gain out of endorsing Blizzards current way of implementing features is more features that are substandard. It's a sad truth that Blizzard won't change their ways so easily, however, if we bitch and moan and they realize that there investments in ESports are becoming jeopardized due to dodgy game releases, then perhaps they will change their minds. Perhaps people should stop looking at this thing so grimly and stop shutting down Destiny so easily. The things he are suggesting are only good for the community, it doesn't matter whether or not his efforts are futile. Except Destiny is arguing just that, he is saying that if they don't make the changes he is pretty much demanding that the game will be dead. It is hard to respect someones argument when it is that extreme. He was arguing that it would be dead in comparison to the other games that are currently out. The game has so much more potential than it currently does.
No he didn't. He did not say it would be dead in comparison to the other games he said it would be dead. He didn't specify dead as a competitive E-sport game, dead as a casual game he made the general statement of dead. Your trying to modify his argument which was not about potential for growth but a statement of make XYZ change or the game will be dead.
I really don't want to get into a debate about this as I do agree with some of what Destiny was saying but I do not agree with how he is going about it. See how Grubby does open letter like posts? That is the more constructive way of doing things rather then being Chicken Little screaming about the sky falling.
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Alright I haven't watched the episode yet(but I will soon) but based on what people have told me what happened. I am incredibly disappointed on Wheat, Destiny and InControl
To be honest I always thought that LoL players were way too immature I always thought they were like children, I hated it and I didn't see the passion Starcraft players gave (Which is the reason why I'm still tethering myself to the SC2 scenery and care about the pro-scene). But to be honest, right now i'm questioning my beliefs, what an immature response by these people. I mean I shouldn't really be surprised but I always supported these three famous people of our community, not much but this kind of hits the nail on the coffin. I'll be dead honest right now, InControl I hope you DON'T go back to SotG, i'm sorry but i'd rather not have you there anymore (And I know you don't want to be there either) And Wheat, please grow up I mean seriously, you're even a dad, just comon; I love what you do for the community but your behavior is quite unacceptable.
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Destiny was Destiny at the end but he did reasonably in holding up his argument. Painuser was great. Much respect. Wheat, Incontrol and Idra were absolutely embarassing. It very quickly took on the aspect of three friends 'inviting' someone into their house just to humiliate them. I wonder if Incontrol - in debate school no less - learned the proper place of the high five during a debate?
This sort of clown school BS just makes everyone look bad. Destiny will always look bad. It's what he does. You should never emerge from a debate with the guy looking as bad or worse than he does. And Wheat came off worst of all.
It reminded me a lot of that State of the Game where Wheat baited drama with Idra and... Avilo, was it?
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On October 29 2012 11:35 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:28 Going4Gold wrote:
djwheat and incontrol came out of that show looking bad, painuser and destiny came out looking like they knew what's going on in esports and idra just came out of it looking like idra.
At one point djwheat's argument against SC2 dying was that without SC2 LOL and Dota2 wouldn't be as popular as they are - what difference does that make to whether SC2 is dying in the next couple of years.
Then, after PainUser made some suggestions about the UI and how to make it more casual-friendly djwheat complained about SC2 turning into LOL despite the fact that none of PainUsers suggestions (or destinys for that matter) concerned the game itself.
incontrol also made a fool of himself saying that more casual players wouldn't mean more viewers for tournaments - I think it goes without saying that the number of people watching tournaments is probably proportional to the number of people logging into the game each week - whether it's to ladder or play custom games. Not everyone who watches tournaments is laddering non-stop, incontrol even contradicted himself by making this point himself when he talked about meeting fans at tournament who didn't even play the game as it was too a hard but liked watching!
As for idra, incontrol and djwheat saying that they can change the game and stop it dying - Blizzard has the source code.
I didn't agree with destiny at first but if this is what the mindset of the "pros" is than yes, SC2 probably will die in the next couple of years.
You misunderstood the entire argument
No, I understood their argument, I just didn't agree with it. djWheat and incontrols argument was that starcraft will never have the appeal of LOL DOTA because of it's complexity but thats OK becasue it will always have 100,000 or so viewers.
If that were true than broodwar would still be around. Eventually someone - probably riot or valve - will come up with a more casual friendly starcraft clone that has the UI features that destiny and painuser mentioned and that will be the end of starcraft 2.
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On October 29 2012 20:31 Going4Gold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 11:35 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 08:28 Going4Gold wrote:
djwheat and incontrol came out of that show looking bad, painuser and destiny came out looking like they knew what's going on in esports and idra just came out of it looking like idra.
At one point djwheat's argument against SC2 dying was that without SC2 LOL and Dota2 wouldn't be as popular as they are - what difference does that make to whether SC2 is dying in the next couple of years.
Then, after PainUser made some suggestions about the UI and how to make it more casual-friendly djwheat complained about SC2 turning into LOL despite the fact that none of PainUsers suggestions (or destinys for that matter) concerned the game itself.
incontrol also made a fool of himself saying that more casual players wouldn't mean more viewers for tournaments - I think it goes without saying that the number of people watching tournaments is probably proportional to the number of people logging into the game each week - whether it's to ladder or play custom games. Not everyone who watches tournaments is laddering non-stop, incontrol even contradicted himself by making this point himself when he talked about meeting fans at tournament who didn't even play the game as it was too a hard but liked watching!
As for idra, incontrol and djwheat saying that they can change the game and stop it dying - Blizzard has the source code.
I didn't agree with destiny at first but if this is what the mindset of the "pros" is than yes, SC2 probably will die in the next couple of years.
You misunderstood the entire argument No, I understood their argument, I just didn't agree with it. djWheat and incontrols argument was that starcraft will never have the appeal of LOL DOTA because of it's complexity but thats OK becasue it will always have 100,000 or so viewers. If that were true than broodwar would still be around. Eventually someone - probably riot or valve - will come up with a more casual friendly starcraft clone that has the UI features that destiny and painuser mentioned and that will be the end of starcraft 2.
I wouldnt quite agree with that assertion; my take on it is that SC2 is at that popularity level where it could be replaced by another 'big' RTS. The scenario is no problem so long as no decent E-sport level RTS is released. Idras right that there's always an RTS on the e-sports world stage; the problem is that I'm not sure SC2 is strong enough to hold up to competition, if competition arises.
The bright side is that I don't think that competition will arise, and so SC2 will be safe for a long time. Honestly, very few developers seem to know how to construct even a solid RTS these days.
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On October 29 2012 20:31 Going4Gold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 11:35 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 08:28 Going4Gold wrote:
djwheat and incontrol came out of that show looking bad, painuser and destiny came out looking like they knew what's going on in esports and idra just came out of it looking like idra.
At one point djwheat's argument against SC2 dying was that without SC2 LOL and Dota2 wouldn't be as popular as they are - what difference does that make to whether SC2 is dying in the next couple of years.
Then, after PainUser made some suggestions about the UI and how to make it more casual-friendly djwheat complained about SC2 turning into LOL despite the fact that none of PainUsers suggestions (or destinys for that matter) concerned the game itself.
incontrol also made a fool of himself saying that more casual players wouldn't mean more viewers for tournaments - I think it goes without saying that the number of people watching tournaments is probably proportional to the number of people logging into the game each week - whether it's to ladder or play custom games. Not everyone who watches tournaments is laddering non-stop, incontrol even contradicted himself by making this point himself when he talked about meeting fans at tournament who didn't even play the game as it was too a hard but liked watching!
As for idra, incontrol and djwheat saying that they can change the game and stop it dying - Blizzard has the source code.
I didn't agree with destiny at first but if this is what the mindset of the "pros" is than yes, SC2 probably will die in the next couple of years.
You misunderstood the entire argument No, I understood their argument, I just didn't agree with it. djWheat and incontrols argument was that starcraft will never have the appeal of LOL DOTA because of it's complexity but thats OK becasue it will always have 100,000 or so viewers. If that were true than broodwar would still be around. Eventually someone - probably riot or valve - will come up with a more casual friendly starcraft clone that has the UI features that destiny and painuser mentioned and that will be the end of starcraft 2.
So amused by the concept that Valve is going to make any game in "a couple of years". Dota 2 was announced in 2010, and is still not officially out to the masses. Lets not talk about episode 3. And it took Riot 3 years to add replays, I am sure they will be starting production of a brand new RTS to compete with Blizzard. Because trying to compete with Blizzard has worked so well in the pas for companies like EA.
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On October 29 2012 18:02 RogerX wrote:
Alright I haven't watched the episode yet(but I will soon) but based on what people have told me what happened. I am incredibly disappointed on Wheat, Destiny and InControl
To be honest I always thought that LoL players were way too immature I always thought they were like children, I hated it and I didn't see the passion Starcraft players gave (Which is the reason why I'm still tethering myself to the SC2 scenery and care about the pro-scene). But to be honest, right now i'm questioning my beliefs, what an immature response by these people. I mean I shouldn't really be surprised but I always supported these three famous people of our community, not much but this kind of hits the nail on the coffin. I'll be dead honest right now, InControl I hope you DON'T go back to SotG, i'm sorry but i'd rather not have you there anymore (And I know you don't want to be there either) And Wheat, please grow up I mean seriously, you're even a dad, just comon; I love what you do for the community but your behavior is quite unacceptable.
So you have an opinion on what happened without actually watching or listening to any of it? Nice, I'll be sure to not pay attention to anything you say, ever.
The whole thing is blown ridiculously out of proportion. They had a dumb debate that was going no where, so Destiny copped out and called Greg and Geoff bad before hanging up. Pretty much no different than any Q&A session on ITG.
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it was nice drama to boost up popularity of ITG 
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On October 29 2012 22:02 Plansix wrote:
So amused by the concept that Valve is going to make any game in "a couple of years". Dota 2 was announced in 2010, and is still not officially out to the masses. Lets not talk about episode 3. And it took Riot 3 years to add replays, I am sure they will be starting production of a brand new RTS to compete with Blizzard. Because trying to compete with Blizzard has worked so well in the pas for companies like EA.
Strawman argument.
I didn't say valve or riot will be producing a starcraft clone in a couple of years, I said that they probably will eventually and when they do that will be the end of starcraft. Blizzard just don't make decent games any more and starcraft is only as popular as it is at the moment because it doesn't have any direct competition.
Within two years starcraft will probably have to make way at the big tournaments like MLG to other games that appeal to casual gamers and get more viewers, why would MLG have starcraft when it can get more viewers and make more money showing other games? It's very complacent to assume starcraft can continue for years to come without increasing it's viewership as new esport oriented games come into the mix.
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On October 29 2012 18:02 RogerX wrote:
Alright I haven't watched the episode yet(but I will soon) but based on what people have told me what happened. I am incredibly disappointed on Wheat, Destiny and InControl
To be honest I always thought that LoL players were way too immature I always thought they were like children, I hated it and I didn't see the passion Starcraft players gave (Which is the reason why I'm still tethering myself to the SC2 scenery and care about the pro-scene). But to be honest, right now i'm questioning my beliefs, what an immature response by these people. I mean I shouldn't really be surprised but I always supported these three famous people of our community, not much but this kind of hits the nail on the coffin. I'll be dead honest right now, InControl I hope you DON'T go back to SotG, i'm sorry but i'd rather not have you there anymore (And I know you don't want to be there either) And Wheat, please grow up I mean seriously, you're even a dad, just comon; I love what you do for the community but your behavior is quite unacceptable.
If you haven't watched it yet you probably shouldn't be make such derogatory posts towards the people in the show. It's asinine to form your opinions based on what people have said. Listen and form your own opinion ffs. Basically what it all boils down to is that Destiny is being an asshat (as usual) and when the hosts disagreed with him Destiny lost his shit.
The funny thing is that djWHEAT, iNControL and IdrA agreed with most of what he was saying in how Blizzard has pretty much ignored community requests for a long time. They were just disagreeing with him on two major points 1.) that Blizzard is the only one that can make this game grow and become more popular as a spectator eSport (i.e. growing our audience without necessarily having player numbers like LoL) and 2.) that the way he was approaching Blizzard about it in the first place was completely wrong and quite possibly damning the game to people outside of the SC2 community that see all of the negative traffic about the game.
It seemed like the only person that really lost it on the show was Destiny, with the exception of djWHEAT blowing up after Destiny made his comment about "waiting for all the Koreans to quit playing so Greg and Geoff could win tournaments again" but I agree with djWHEAT on that point. Destiny made a low belt jab before leaving the call because he can't handle not winning an argument. It's funny because Destiny has never had any notable results in live tournaments yet he's trashing people who have legitimate results.
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Just for the record, Destiny has now been streaming only LoL for almost a week and his views have not increased ten fold. Someone start a reddit thread about LoL dying. Actually if anything Destiny's views are down.
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On October 29 2012 23:38 VanGarde wrote:
Just for the record, Destiny has now been streaming only LoL for almost a week and his views have not increased ten fold. Someone start a reddit thread about LoL dying. Actually if anything Destiny's views are down.
maybe.. Destiny is dying ?
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On October 29 2012 23:12 Going4Gold wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 22:02 Plansix wrote:
So amused by the concept that Valve is going to make any game in "a couple of years". Dota 2 was announced in 2010, and is still not officially out to the masses. Lets not talk about episode 3. And it took Riot 3 years to add replays, I am sure they will be starting production of a brand new RTS to compete with Blizzard. Because trying to compete with Blizzard has worked so well in the pas for companies like EA. Strawman argument. I didn't say valve or riot will be producing a starcraft clone in a couple of years, I said that they probably will eventually and when they do that will be the end of starcraft. Blizzard just don't make decent games any more and starcraft is only as popular as it is at the moment because it doesn't have any direct competition. Within two years starcraft will probably have to make way at the big tournaments like MLG to other games that appeal to casual gamers and get more viewers, why would MLG have starcraft when it can get more viewers and make more money showing other games? It's very complacent to assume starcraft can continue for years to come without increasing it's viewership as new esport oriented games come into the mix.
It is not a strawman argument, because I was simply stating I was amused by the concept of either of those companies churning out a game in such a short period of time. It is simply fact that making a great game takes two to three years, regardless of how large your studio is.
The simple fact of the matter is Blizzard was never going to start work on the SC2 back end until Diablo 3 and the WoW expansion shipped. Those products stood to(and did) earn them more money than SC2 and they had to be priorities. Diablo 3 sold more copies that SC2 and WoW is a greater source of income. That could be changed if Blizzard embraces the free to play model, but that will take time and effort. Now HotS is the only pending release and Blizzard can double down on it.
Also, people are raving about free to play right now, but I want to see how it pans out over 5-8 years, rather than 2-3. It might not be as sustainable as people believe right now. Video games as a whole have had a number of fads that have blown up, the industry was going nuts with social games and before it was “game play inputs” and motion controls. Though not directly related, I would rather Blizzard be conservative about it stick to what they do best.
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After reading through Destiny's view, watching the showdown between Wheat, PU, iNcontroL, IdrA, and Destiny, and reading a lot of thread debates, some of my personal thoughts on the issue:
1. I really don't understand why so many people think that iNcontroL or IdrA don't wish Blizzard would improve the game. Them stating that they don't want to only rely on Blizzard (because they felt they haven't seen much positive change in the past two years) does not mean that they're fine with the way things currently are in StarCraft 2. Furthermore, this is a point that's repeatedly stated by them- even going so far as to tell Destiny that they agree with him about how Blizzard should be fixing their game.
2. I agree with IdrA and iNcontroL when they argue that there exists other avenues (e.g. tournaments, community advertising, etc.) besides Blizzard that can help hype SC2 and can keep it as a successful e-sport. I also think it's important to note that just because one e-sport is doing extremely well, that doesn't mean another one with slightly less success must be doing poorly or failing or becoming extinct (especially when they're different genres of games, like LoL and SC2). I think that Destiny's original argument (that Blizzard was "the only entity" that could help grow SC2) is a bit of an exaggeration, and even Destiny slowly retracted his argument when debating with the others, saying that Blizzard was actually just the primary source of success, and then merely strawmanning by pointing out that no ex-BW or SC2 player should be complacent with what Blizzard is doing (which has nothing to do with saying that Blizzard is the only way to fix the game).
3. As far as who was acting inappropriate was concerned, I think Destiny lost his cool the most (especially at the end when he hung up on everyone after a snarky little rant about how all the Koreans will leave SC2 and then iNcontroL and IdrA can finally win games again). While iNcontroL and Wheat clearly became very emotional or animated at some points, I feel like a lot of times those appeared to be just in response to a fallacious argument, rather than a truly uncalled for action. IdrA and PU seemed to be in the most control.
4. I like how Wheat pointed out how the success of other e-sports and their video streams may be able to be attributed to SC2 (as it arguably paved the way for others), although I feel that if LoL is more accessible and more easily playable, it may steal some viewers from SC2, and so it could still potentially hurt SC2 a small amount (standard competition). That being said, the growth of e-sports as a whole (something iNcontroL mentioned) is something to be valued, as more of these springing up successfully and famously can only mean more sponsorships and visibility in the real world, and perhaps eventual integration into more cultures and norms.
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On October 29 2012 23:38 VanGarde wrote:
Just for the record, Destiny has now been streaming only LoL for almost a week and his views have not increased ten fold. Someone start a reddit thread about LoL dying. Actually if anything Destiny's views are down.
he was at like 2k when phantomnoob was on his stream the other day, once his elo gets higher and he gets more recognised in the scene then his viewers will increase, 1.5k for a new LoL player is pretty good. He already has the personality and connections with some pro LoL players, so I wouldn't worry about his numbers at this stage
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i take it a lot of the people arguing sc2 is dying dont play the stock market. SELL SELL SELL, every time there is a small dip! lol.
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I think I'm pretty middle road about this whole thing. Personally I like SC2 better, but I agree more with Destiny a bit more.
Your general gamer doesn't have loyalty, just because we love SC2 doesn't mean it will succeed no matter what. It doesn't deserve to succeed because of Brood War, it needs to stand on it's own two feet. If it's not fun, they won't care. They'll vote with their activity and watch/play something else. I think SC2 is on the descend, and I agree with all parties that I think it's Blizzards fault. I think the game is screwed and I think it's because the dev team behind it, it doesn't hold a candle to what we would have expected from the Brood War Dev team. If (and I mean if) SC2 were to die, the only people to blame is Blizzard. Because the Community was there, and the audience looked, and if it fails...it's because they failed to deliver to that audience and indulge that community
I think they took a bunch of people from the WoW team and had them make an RTS, and they didn't do what the original did. Innovate. In fact I'd say a part from the UI/Graphics, SC:Brood War is a better game then SC2. (Basicaly if you took a SC2:Brood War Custom game and they built SC2 around it, it'd be better for it.) Mechanically it's shallower, the battles play too fast, there's little micro (Compared to Brood War) required in fights and there isn't any back and forth, it's just build up and one player steam rolls the other.
LoL's success is unique to a F2P model, it's not something SC2 needs to strive for. It's just something it needs to be aware of.
The idea that we as a community can make a game better is true. But if Blizzard were to do a good job on improving the game, it would far eclipse anything we as a community can do. Because they have full control of the source content.
Basically what I'm saying is don't worry. If SC2 will get what it deserves, good or bad. Based on it's merits. I sincerely hope HoTS brings about a golden age. But I temper that with extreme cynicism
Anyways, overall I think Wheat did to much yelling about nothing. Idra was a dick, Incontrol was a bigger dick and Destiny didn't express an issue that is extremely important to SC2 well. (I still love all of them however...no matter what game is most popular.)
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Wow just lost all respect for iNcontrol, IdrA and djWHEAT.
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EPT
