EPTOn January 09 2013 09:24 LeftY_ wrote:
Hey there Ver / Dwf. I need some help with my late game mech TvZ. I do the regular hellion banshee with cloak or eco hellion banshee with fast 3rd into the eventual 2-2 push. How it goes is I roast enough drones with run by's or defend the harass of their own well enough to kill them right there with the push, when it doesn't work I go up to 3-4 starports to get vikings out if I know broods are coming. I normally end up killing their first broodlord army but then then steam rolled by the ultra ling switch. Should I be making more ravens? I only get 2-3 for some PDD's because I just dont find HSM all that effective and it just feels gimmicky because it relies on the zerg not splitting their corruptors.
TL:DR How to deal with zergs late game tech switches with mech, or are you just screwed if your 2-2 timing doesn't work
Edit - High masters
PS: Beat my first GM today!
Hey there Ver / Dwf. I need some help with my late game mech TvZ. I do the regular hellion banshee with cloak or eco hellion banshee with fast 3rd into the eventual 2-2 push. How it goes is I roast enough drones with run by's or defend the harass of their own well enough to kill them right there with the push, when it doesn't work I go up to 3-4 starports to get vikings out if I know broods are coming. I normally end up killing their first broodlord army but then then steam rolled by the ultra ling switch. Should I be making more ravens? I only get 2-3 for some PDD's because I just dont find HSM all that effective and it just feels gimmicky because it relies on the zerg not splitting their corruptors.
TL:DR How to deal with zergs late game tech switches with mech, or are you just screwed if your 2-2 timing doesn't work
Edit - High masters
PS: Beat my first GM today!
Ver's answer (there was a discussion about the Curious vs Ryung game in which Curious remaxed on 18 Ultralisks after a major engagement):
On November 13 2012 05:04 Ver wrote:
Win the game before that point. I don't mean cripple him either, I mean win. (…)
In this case Ryung's build was slightly suboptimal and he lost too many hellions roaming around so his 1430-15 min timing that is supposed to kill came maybe 45s later which means Curious has an easy time making broodlords. Ordinarily you want to force them to max on roach/ling/infestor at 14 mins, retreat to build up to 180-190 with more tanks, then push out again and kill their army and win the game. Curious actually made a lot of bad errors and gave Ryung a possibility to win. If Ryung had taken all the bottom left bases and made 8~ orbitals during his siege up left and started investing into BC's, he would've had an easier time holding and rebuilding. You never want to make planetary walls and I find defensive planetaries to be terrible tbh except on Metro but raxes and orbitals around a planetary can help out a lot vs ultras. Taeja vs Idra on Atlantis spaceship is a good example of this where Idra makes some errors engaging without a proper force and Taeja's repoduction is good enough that he can buyback his army faster with a dozen mules.
Win the game before that point. I don't mean cripple him either, I mean win. (…)
In this case Ryung's build was slightly suboptimal and he lost too many hellions roaming around so his 1430-15 min timing that is supposed to kill came maybe 45s later which means Curious has an easy time making broodlords. Ordinarily you want to force them to max on roach/ling/infestor at 14 mins, retreat to build up to 180-190 with more tanks, then push out again and kill their army and win the game. Curious actually made a lot of bad errors and gave Ryung a possibility to win. If Ryung had taken all the bottom left bases and made 8~ orbitals during his siege up left and started investing into BC's, he would've had an easier time holding and rebuilding. You never want to make planetary walls and I find defensive planetaries to be terrible tbh except on Metro but raxes and orbitals around a planetary can help out a lot vs ultras. Taeja vs Idra on Atlantis spaceship is a good example of this where Idra makes some errors engaging without a proper force and Taeja's repoduction is good enough that he can buyback his army faster with a dozen mules.
Mine will be a bit less pessimistic but essentially, yes, you really have to prevent Zerg from comfortably reaching the point in which he sits on 5-6 bases with 90+ Drones, stockpiling thousands of resources and dozens of larvae (thus allowing tech switches at will) with several Spines at each expand. In lategame you should constantly use BFH raids to wipe out Drones again and again and again so he never manages to stabilize on the mentioned scenario above; if he still succeeds you should be working towards BCs by this time.
Ravens are mediocre but needed as Missiles add good firepower against the Corruptor wall, and even more importantly this “extra damage” is instant and occurs at the very beginning of the fight (so things snowball: some Corruptors fall faster = less Corruptors attacking = less Vikings dying = more Vikings firing = more Corruptors dying, etc.); even if Zerg splits his Corruptors he will take hundreds of damage from several Missiles. Regarding the Fungal lock issue I spread my Ravens in a huge concave; ideally you want them pre-positioned in such a way that he can't hit more than one Raven per Fungal once you charge in an arc, therefore preventing him from blocking all your Ravens since he can't hit X Fungals over 2-3 screens in a split second. Naturally this optimum is hardly reachable but you see the point; you want to avoid at all costs the awful situation in which your whole Raven fleet gets repeatedly stuck out of range by chain Fungals.
Personally as long as I have time I'm not afraid to get as many Ravens as I can, so I end up with 10-15 of them sometimes; I feel 6-8 are the minimum to get a decent damage boost.
After a successful engagement in which I did not lose all my Tanks I tend to produce 4 Thors, and BattleCruisers if I have enough economy; assuming you did not lose all your Tanks/Thors and Zerg does not have unlimited banking and larvae you can handle the hopefully “weak” (say 10 max) Ultralisk switch with Tanks/Thors supported by Hellions and landed Vikings in front (not to mention Ravens summoning mini-walls with Turrets if some of them survived). It really comes down to how much you retained from the last engagement, hence the Raven necessity hoping to get a landslide victory (with Ravens you can severely punish Zerg's positioning/micro mistakes): obviously if you lost nearly everything except some Vikings and he's able to make 15+ Ultralisks 60+ Zerglings you will get mauled.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote:
Ver & Dwf, I just watched Goswser crush MVP with a 10:00-11:00 minute speed roach/queen drop. Rewind 1 week ago when Stephano forced MVP to tap out after a 10:00-11:00 minute roach/hydra bust. Zergs are rewriting the script of standard TvZ.
Ver & Dwf, I just watched Goswser crush MVP with a 10:00-11:00 minute speed roach/queen drop. Rewind 1 week ago when Stephano forced MVP to tap out after a 10:00-11:00 minute roach/hydra bust. Zergs are rewriting the script of standard TvZ.
Zergs are metagaming Terrans knowing they can get easy wins against autopilot third + dual upgrades before extra production facilities, and that the relative opacity of 2-bases Lair builds allows them to prevail against sub-optimal reactions which are more or less forced by the fact you need to commit (at least partially) in one direction or another before you can be 100% sure about what kind of attack is coming.
By the way Stephano's Roaches/Hydralisks attack against Mvp on Ohana was way weaker than a real Speedroaches timing (compare his 11 Speedroaches and 7 Hydralisks at 11'45 with the benchmark below); Mvp lost because he went Marauders, probably expecting earlier Roaches, so he had not the second Tech Lab Factory and the extra 2-3 Tanks needed to deal with Stephano's attack. Besides, he lost carelessly 4 Hellions at Stephano's Tower: it may seem marginal yet it's a huge deal actually as a sturdier Hellion wall prevents Roaches from moving forward unchallenged to snipe Tanks.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote:
What adjustments should terrans make to survive these deadly timing attacks?
What adjustments should terrans make to survive these deadly timing attacks?
Mainly less ambitious follow-ups, inverting some of the buildings in the build order to squeeze in more units instead of focusing on technology (upgrades) before extra production facilities; for instance if you mech and you go dual Armory before Factories #2 and #3 you will 100% lose or suffer game-ending damage from a dedicated 1/1 Speedroaches timing (e. g. Taeja vs Vortix on Metropolis @ 2013 IPTL Season 1, Karont3 vs TL).
Now the problem, and what makes those builds dangerous, is that there are several possibilities for 2-bases Lair tech builds, most of them requiring different, precise reactions while stemming from the same core build order (except Speedling):
- 2-bases Infestors;
- 2-bases Mutalisks;
- 2-bases Roaches.
2-bases Roaches can be subdivided into three different things.
- 2-bases frontal Speedroaches 1/1 timing (benchmark = 20-25 Speedroaches at your natural at ~10'30 with 1/1 complete);
- 2-bases Speedroaches drops, possibly with Queens (benchmark = 25-30 Speedroaches in your main between 10'30 and 11' (?));
- 2-bases Speedroaches/Queens Nydus (benchmark = 15+ Roaches and 4-6 Queens going out of the Nydus at ~9'30 (?)).
The 1/1 timing and the Queens/Nydus variants differ but they have one thing in common, they're both a frontal assault (blame yourself if you allow a Nydus to complete in your base) which means you can defend them using the terrain/range advantage; such is not the case with the drop variation which forces you to have what it takes to kill the drop in the open because it bypasses the wall/range defensive advantage (thus it's the deadliest variation).
Hydralisks come later and honestly don't add much; yes they can attack Banshees but by the time Hydralisks are at your door you should not be relying on Banshees to fend off the attack. Roaches switches after Mutalisks are old as the hills and can be dealt with going Tanks after the initial Thors (never saw them against biomech).
Since I play mostly mech I will only talk about the reactions when going Hellions/Banshees → mech. Ideally:
- 2-bases Infestors: little offensive potential, so you can go CC and dual Armory as detection at each entrance + sieged Tanks should be able to hold anything he tries. Banshees at your own discretion.
- 2-bases Mutalisks: CC, single Armory [I feel going two Armories delays too much the Thors but it's possible depending on his Spire timing], dual Thor + some Turrets, immediate switch into Tanks anticipating the Roach switch (of course additional Thors may be needed later if he resumes Mutalisk production, Vortix did that against Mvp on Daybreak @ IEM Cologne VII).
- 2-bases Roaches: against those you need to proceed very cautiously as the slightest misreaction can result in an immediate loss. I would go with CC, dual Factory (rushing Siege Mode and Tanks) and continuous Banshee production, entirely skipping Armories until building them is safe.
The main problem, of course, is that you may not know yet what Zerg is up to by the time you would need to head for such or such branch; for instance seeing a Roach Warren complete at 7' means nothing. So what I usually do against 2-bases Lair is that I get two Factories (while making 2 Tech Labs with my Barracks) as soon as possible, then an Armory. Cancel this Armory upon scouting Roaches, or at least do not use it until you're safe. I don't really like this kind of middle-of-the-road approach but this is the most all-around answer. Oh and I always skip Cloak now, the 200 gas investment delays too much Factories and is easily negated by Spores/Overseers.
With gasless 4 Queens → 2-bases Lair Zerg reaches 55 Drones by 7'30 - 7'45, so you should see his first units between 8' and 9' using a Hellion poke and/or flying around/over his bases with your Banshee. If you see Speedlings/Banelings or a macro Hatchery you can rule out the most brutal Roaches timings as Zergs usually invest 100% of their resources into Roach-related stuff to reach a healthy mass and don't need the extra larvae from a third Hatchery; if you see Roaches you should be very careful as there is no sure way to know yet if he's going front or drop, so keep producing Banshees (4 Banshees kill Queens or Roaches in two volleys) while getting Tanks as soon as possible.
- 2-bases frontal Speedroaches 1/1 timing: a wall + 2-4 Sieged Tanks carefully positioned + Banshees should do. Since you don't need all Hellions at home you might capitalize on his army being out of his base: pre-emptively hide some Hellions on the map then raid while Mordor is emptied and kill Drones.
- 2-bases Speedroaches/Queens Nydus: as a general tip, be active with a Hellion around your third; Zerg will generally want to Nydus there so your third is blocked for years (creep) if you defend his attack. Depending on his timing you may need to stall a bit for Siege so having a Bunker in front is useful.
- 2-bases Speedroaches drops, possibly with Queens: the real killer. Against this one you need 100% units (no Armory) going Hellions/Tanks/Banshees and you will have to pull 20+ SCVs so Roaches waste tons of shots on them; until Zerg is done dropping they will auto-focus SCVs since they're at melee range. If you siege some Tanks be sure to siege them outside of his immediate vision when he reaches your base (he'll likely drop as soon as possible in your main, or head for your production facilities), then retreat everything on the ground so Roaches have to move awkwardly around your buildings (you still have a tiny advantage fighting in your base against low-ranged units) while being shot by sieged Tanks, etc. Focus Queens with your Banshees so they have free reign afterwards.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote:
I feel like banshees are 100% completely useless any combination of overseer + queens/hydra/muta. PDD is good against all of these things.
I feel like banshees are 100% completely useless any combination of overseer + queens/hydra/muta. PDD is good against all of these things.
Regarding Queens + Overseers it depends on numbers, with uninterrupted Banshee production you can have 4 Banshees by 10'45 [I'm still talking about mech] which should be enough against 4 Queens. Besides, you're at home so you can mass-repair Banshees; against a Roaches/Queens drop SCV casualties will be high anyway so they might as well help other units survive.
Against Mutalisks or Hydralisks yes I would cut Banshees as soon as I scout his tech.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote:
Would you suggest I go for faster additional raxx/facts by delaying my 3rd CC? and how about cutting worker production at approx 44 SCVs?
Would you suggest I go for faster additional raxx/facts by delaying my 3rd CC? and how about cutting worker production at approx 44 SCVs?
You can't know for sure anyway by the time you would need to do this (i. e. 7'30), and you may lose many SCVs to defend so having an extra MULE and a third CC to replenish faster your lost workers is better; of course it means you will have to delay upgrades, you can't expect to hold a massive 2-bases Roaches attack with a third and dual upgrades before rax/fact. I would not cut worker production at 44; temporarily cutting SCVs to get earlier production facilities is a good idea though.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote:
and most importantly, what is my long term course of action after I hold this attack? It seems like a pretty solid way to tech to hive, take a 3rd/4th, and spread creep undisturbed...
and most importantly, what is my long term course of action after I hold this attack? It seems like a pretty solid way to tech to hive, take a 3rd/4th, and spread creep undisturbed...
General plan does not change, pre-Hive tech timing or (near-)max supply push with the usual outcomes: if you're too behind from his attack you'll likely lose, if you're even things vary depending on what happens with your timing, if you're ahead you should be able to kill him.
![[image loading]](http://s1.postimage.org/4h06gh50f/Antiga_Shipyard_SC2_Map1.jpg)
