1)Nobody is forcing you to like the Chinese teams. To each his own, and only you can choose who you want to support. You like Na'Vi because they were the only foreigners who got far? By all means! We all have racial bias, nobody is denying that fact!
2) BUT, you also have to realize that there is a big difference in showing unconditional support to the team you're a fan of (again, even if the reasons are purely racial), to blatantly disrespecting the opposing player/team. You can feign ignorance all you want, but when several casters/analysts end up having to remind the audience to show respect, there's something wrong. Accept that fact.
3)Stop comparing e-Sports and real sports. Watch this (first part audio is fucked, but its fine for the rest of the video):
Some of you guys actually compared these pro-gamers to Lebron fucking James???
hyhy: Especially in Singapore, our families put a lot of stress on us in terms of education. Trying to juggle both gaming and studies together, it takes a lot of effort. My parents used to tell me that "gaming will be the death of you one day".
Dendi: One way to forget about pain is to do something you will be in, completely.
Fear: So it's kind of a ghetto set-up. I didn't have a monitor so I went to a friend and he had a spare CRT monitor. I have two books here that support it.
These guys didn't get scouted at a high-school game, these guys didn't get a full scholarship to college from playing DotA, these guys didn't get drafted into an NBA team, these guys don't have multimillion-dollar contracts.
It's like you guys have taken pro-gamers for granted, completely ignoring the fact that it's probably one of the least prospective career options out there. These guys have sacrificed A LOT, like education (which provides financial stability for the future). Imagine going through what these guys have gone through, dedicating everything to winning that one pay-off tournament, the prize money and the potential sponsors, only to have the crowd BOO you for doing something in the game (ie. Song of the Siren) that helps you achieve your goal of winning. Then an hour later, Na'Vi does the exact same thing, and the audience are okay with it. Seriously?
"Uhhh, bro, they came here to win a computer game, not a popularity contest" - is perhaps the most insensitive, ignorant argument, ever. Don't sit there in front of your computer claiming you wouldn't tilt if it happened to you.
4) If you want e-Sports to grow, to a point where we can legitimately compare it to other sports (maybe then you can throw comparisons to the NBA), then maybe we should consider respecting those we don't support. We do it in Starcraft 2, why can't we do the same thing in DotA 2?
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
If fans in Starcraft 2 can be fairly neutral while supporting their primary fan favorite, then DotA 2 fans can do the same. The crowd got way out of hand, and it was honestly ridiculous.
I am so grateful. I may have seen a larger crowd but, a cheer like that, you would only see once per year. It makes me proud and I want to thank the fans who cheered for me. If possible, I want to attend as many foreign tournaments as possible.
If I end up going to Anaheim, please cheer me on even if I don't do so well. I really want to hear the cheers of the foreign audience, so show me what you guys are all about. I haven't been able to go to TeamLiquid that much, but I heard it's a great site for Starcraft II resources, so I'll try to go more often.
I like it a lot. I'm thankful to the fans, and I really like them, but because they're foreigners, it's hard for me to express that to him. And it's not like I'm good at English. I'm so thankful to the fans but I have trouble expressing it, so that's been regrettable. Yes, I've won the OSL and MSL multiple times, but the WCG's I've been to really stick out in my memory. The passion of the foreign fans really left an impression. If I could play Starcraft II abroad, it would be great. I hope people are looking forward to it.
Q: This is your first time at a foreign tournament outside of Korea. What are your thoughts so far, you've been here a little over a day. A: I'm very nervous, but at the same time excited. Even though I'm here and I'm having difficulties, I find it an enjoyable environment.
If you want to see more of this
Then start respecting both sides of the competition. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On September 04 2012 07:46 Ramong wrote: What I don't understand is this claim that navi fans are racists..
Just because I rooted for navi I somehow hate the Chinese race and believe their are inferior?
Not cheering for or dislikeing a team does not mean you hate the race of the players of the team
I don't know about the claims about racism, but alot of people make up some bullshit saying how the Chinese play boring games as a reason as to why they don't like them. That's pretty funny, considering the Chinese were averaging more kills and assists on a consistent game by game basis than virtually every Na'vi player. They also generally scored higher team cohesiveness stat, which is a stat that demonstrates teamfight ability, gank coordination, etc. etc. on almost every game especially when facing against Na'vi. What that means is that the Chinese teams were really the ones pushing things around, and forcing the action most of the time, contrary to popular opinion.
Look up the stats if you don't believe it yourself. The belief that the Chinese play a "boring" farm style is a load of crap. The only played that style during the PL/Dusa/Drow/etc. hardcarry era because it was how you won games. They executed it very well too; that doesn't mean they still do the same things anymore. Their style of play is just simply less flashy, but they still generally are the ones being the aggressor while still maintaining farm and map control all at the same time. It's coordinated aggression, not mindless aggression like alot of Western teams utilize (Na'vi and coL are examples of Western teams that DO NOT utilize mindless aggression; they press the envelope like alot of Chinese teams do, thus why they were probably the most successful Western teams at the International).
You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I love your post Xpace. Nice examples of korean progamers showing appreciation towards their foreign fans. I havent seen Chinese players and teams do that in dota. If someone has some info about that, I'd really like to read it.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beat their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
No, I haven't forgotten at all. And I didn't try to justify their actions. They were wrong, just like what happened at TI2, plain and simple.
And I wasn't trying to compare the Chinese teams to Flash, I was merely pointing out that if people really want DotA 2 to grow, they should give the Chinese teams a reason to keep coming back, because let's be honest, the games were GREAT!
I'm not saying the SC2 community is better than the DotA 2 community, I'm simply pointing out one aspect the SC2 community has adopted that the DotA 2 community should adopt. Both communities are growing/maturing, wouldn't it be nice if they could both benefit from each other by adopting what makes the other so good?
Edit:
On September 04 2012 08:07 FreakyDroid wrote: I love your post Xpace. Nice examples of korean progamers showing appreciation towards their foreign fans. I havent seen Chinese players and teams do that in dota. If someone has some info about that, I'd really like to read it.
Thanks! Sadly, while I'm fluent in speaking Cantonese/Mandarin, my reading is at a grade school level.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
How were they less boring? If anything there were far more boring. XBOCT's AM is a level below Burning and Sylar, so he couldn't even get as much farm as those could when Na'vi was securing him free farm. Watching XBOCT do nothing but right click creeps while Na'vi controlled the map through smokes/ganks (which is exactly what the Chinese do anyways) isn't exactly riveting, but the whole crowd would cheer when they saw the exp or gold graphs of XBOCTs. It was a load of crap and you know it. The fact of the matter is, the analyst booth had to tell the crowd to stop disrespecting the Chinese teams. When it gets that bad, there's no way of denying what was going on.
Look, you're just running out of excuses. Everyone says "Chinese play boring" etc. etc. etc. It wasn't just that game, they were saying EHOME, Tongfu, LGD, and iG all played boring games. They said that all they did was farm farm farm. You really think two games was it? Somehow everyone can remember PPY picking Juggernaut, can remember big plays from Dendi, or LOH's Enigma ults, and yet they can't remember when iG/LGD make big plays against their opponents? Ferrari's TA destroying people? YYF's ridiculous Panda play? The come back with Zhou's bear? People just want to have selective memory. You saying it was "those two games" is a bunch of bull when people were saying the same things day 1/2/3 prelims, despite the fact that iG and LGD were literally terrorizing everyone with not just hardcarry strats, but multiple early game centric gank strats.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
On September 04 2012 07:46 Ramong wrote: What I don't understand is this claim that navi fans are racists..
Just because I rooted for navi I somehow hate the Chinese race and believe their are inferior?
Not cheering for or dislikeing a team does not mean you hate the race of the players of the team
I don't know about the claims about racism, but alot of people make up some bullshit saying how the Chinese play boring games as a reason as to why they don't like them. That's pretty funny, considering the Chinese were averaging more kills and assists on a consistent game by game basis than virtually every Na'vi player. They also generally scored higher team cohesiveness stat, which is a stat that demonstrates teamfight ability, gank coordination, etc. etc. on almost every game especially when facing against Na'vi. What that means is that the Chinese teams were really the ones pushing things around, and forcing the action most of the time, contrary to popular opinion.
Look up the stats if you don't believe it yourself. The belief that the Chinese play a "boring" farm style is a load of crap. The only played that style during the PL/Dusa/Drow/etc. hardcarry era because it was how you won games. They executed it very well too; that doesn't mean they still do the same things anymore. Their style of play is just simply less flashy, but they still generally are the ones being the aggressor while still maintaining farm and map control all at the same time. It's coordinated aggression, not mindless aggression like alot of Western teams utilize (Na'vi and coL are examples of Western teams that DO NOT utilize mindless aggression; they press the envelope like alot of Chinese teams do, thus why they were probably the most successful Western teams at the International).
This. If you wanna cheer for Na'Vi for being white, then I have no problems with that whatsoever.
Don't just post any bullshit about Chinese teams being boring when the average IG games is less than 40 mins. It's just a fucking joke how their 1-2 boring games are repeatedly mentioned when their 3 games where they beat Na'Vi in less than 20 mins is never mentioned.
Anyone who frequents forums like JoinDota quickly get the feeling that race is a big part of why there are so many Na'Vi fans.
There certainly is a group of people who like Na'Vi for their plays and personality, and I'm fine with that, I'm just tired of the other camp, who post all this crap about the Chinese being "boring" as a mask for something else.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
Except those games happen on a regular basis when EU/NA teams face off because there's so many mistakes on both ends, that it almost certainly reaches late game where both carries are ultra farmed. And yet no one ever bitches about XBOCT literally picking Anti-Mage almost every game that he can, or coL running a farm strat of TA/Tiny dual core, or any other team running a turtlish carry strat. It's a double standard and you know it. And it needs to stop, otherwise the Chinese/SEA teams simply aren't going to come back, or they aren't going to interact with the fans as much because of the hostility they feel from the crowd.
Alot of people say, "Well I don't feel a connection to them." Well no fucking shit. You're calling them boring, booing them, etc. etc. and you expect them to be friendly to you? These teams have the utmost respect for one another, especially Navi and alot of the Chinese players (they've played each other in the past on different teams at various times), and yet people in the crowd, on forums, the commentators themselves, etc. really disrespect quite a few of the Chinese players in particular for apparently no reason.
You keep saying it was "those games" and yet you forget that there were TWO separate threads on JoinDota that spanded over 30 pages in total between the two, that were discussing how the Chinese teams did NOT deserve to go to the International, and alot of them were saying that the Chinese teams not only were unskillful, but played a very boring style. This was way back in May, and it was pretty sickening reading through the threads. This isn't something that was exclusive at all to this tournament; it has happened on more than one occasion, and it honestly needs to stop. That kind of behavior should never be condoned, ever, especially on a site like TL.
I didn't even mention the amount of just straight up bias from various other posters at JoinDota, Reddit, or GosuGamers.net where people were just criticizing the Chinese players for things they didn't even do.
If you cheer for na'vi primarily because they're non-asian, I'd understand. Dendi is one of my favorite streamers for 2 main reasons: 1) he's really fucking good 2) he generally commentates in russian (which I speak), which greatly enhances my enjoyment of the stream. Likewise I enjoy v1lat's commentaries (although tobi + synd is my favorite casting pair tbh)
What's not fine is disrespecting the other team because they are asian. That's just some bullshit right there. There's a huge difference between not-cheering-for and disrespecting. The boo's and the general aura of dislike for asian teams was horrible imo.
And it's not just the crowd/casters, and it's not just about asia vs non-asia dota. For example, sometime during the international, 2GD said something like "if you're a LoL player, I don't want to know you". What the fuck was that? Again, supporting dota2 over LoL is fine, but disrespecting LoL players is not. It's just courtesy, jesus.
On September 04 2012 07:36 SKC wrote: It was much better than how sports fans treat the away team. Until people start throwing bags of piss, it's not even close. It's just natural to root for the "home" team, even if it's weird to call Navi the home team in Seattle. But for plenty of obvious reasons, most foreigners will support a team like Navi over chinese teams that they have seen for the first time in this tournament. mTw got similar support in DH, and even the cast was also biased, but it also wasn't a big deal.
They should have been more respectful, less booing and all, but the issue with the crowd siding with Navi is just natural. Them cheering as much for iG would just be fake. Next thing people will start complaining that V1lat is too biased.
I didn't watch the last match, but some people booed when iG won?
I didn't catch most of it, but from what I understand it was more like booing picks or booing when Naga gets away with her ult, etc. Sort off like when the fighting game community boos some character that they think are OP or something? I don't think there was any particular animosity towards the team. They obviously did it more often with the asians, but from what I could tell it was nothing personal. If they actually booed after the game it is much worse.
On September 04 2012 08:16 superstartran wrote:
On September 04 2012 08:04 SKC wrote: You can't possibly compare being Flash fans to being iG fans though. Why did Flash, JD, etc. get such a reaction? Because they are fan favorites. Everyone knows Flash, everyone was excited to see him play and to discover how they would transition to SC2. It's a diferent enviroment. The is no Dota2 TL (yet). There are no news from China. I bet a minority in the crowd knew who Chuan was or had ever heard of the chinese teams. It's a diferent game. Even if the SC2 crowd is more respectful, that is not a fair comparison. Obviously the crowd went insane with Boxer or Nada, it's not about being asian, it's about being fan favorites or random asian dudes that are beating their favorites.
And about the SC2 crowd being so respectful, remember when they would boo other games? At MLG I think? It's the same thing. It's probally even worse, since booing a morphling pick can be fairly lighthearted, mostly a joke. Booing because they are showing CoD, or LoL, or whatever is completelly disrespectful.
People are assholes everywhere. This whole "this community is better than that community" is ussually wrong.
About the "boring chinese games", a lot of that was because of iG vs LGD games 2 and 3. They were probally the worst games in the tournament that I saw. And I saw a lot of them. There were other great chinese vs chinese games, but not only those games were fresh in the memory of everyone, they also cling to that notion of boring chinese games and were probally excited to see the Grand Finals.
This is pretty funny since Na'vi executed the same 4 protect 1 hard carry strat multiple times and no one complained or boo'd about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure Na'vi ran far more 4 protect 1 with XBOCT on Anti-Mage more than LGD or IG did the entire tournament.
Yes, but the games were far less boring. It wasn't about the strat. AM vs Morphling was all over the place in this tournament. But those 2 games ended up being completelly awful for some reason, and at the worst time possible. I'm not saying I'm agree the chinese are boring, I'm saying that was a big reason why some people started complaining about it.
When Burning has 768 gpm and DK ends the game in 20mins, the strategy may be the same, but it won't stick into the viewers minds like those 2 games did.
thats just not true, the flame started way before those 2 games were played. I'll admit that those games werent the most entertaining games, but saying that those 2 games were a big reason is just a big fat lie. The truth is that the people were complaining about the "boring chinese dota" throughout the whole tournament, and even way before the tournament started.
People have been saying that for ages, and that wasn't going to change. I'm saying those games contributed a lot to it, not that they were the only reason it happened. I don't see how you can't believe games like that are a big reason why people keep having that mentality. If you try to tell them diferently, they will point at those examples all the time.
Except those games happen on a regular basis when EU/NA teams face off because there's so many mistakes on both ends, that it almost certainly reaches late game where both carries are ultra farmed. And yet no one ever bitches about XBOCT literally picking Anti-Mage almost every game that he can, or coL running a farm strat of TA/Tiny dual core, or any other team running a turtlish carry strat. It's a double standard and you know it. And it needs to stop, otherwise the Chinese/SEA teams simply aren't going to come back, or they aren't going to interact with the fans as much because of the hostility they feel from the crowd.
Alot of people say, "Well I don't feel a connection to them." Well no fucking shit. You're calling them boring, booing them, etc. etc. and you expect them to be friendly to you? These teams have the utmost respect for one another, especially Navi and alot of the Chinese players (they've played each other in the past on different teams at various times), and yet people in the crowd, on forums, the commentators themselves, etc. really disrespect quite a few of the Chinese players in particular for apparently no reason.
You keep saying it was "those games" and yet you forget that there were TWO separate threads on JoinDota that spanded over 30 pages in total between the two, that were discussing how the Chinese teams did NOT deserve to go to the International, and alot of them were saying that the Chinese teams not only were unskillful, but played a very boring style. This was way back in May, and it was pretty sickening reading through the threads. This isn't something that was exclusive at all to this tournament; it has happened on more than one occasion, and it honestly needs to stop. That kind of behavior should never be condoned, ever, especially on a site like TL.
I didn't even mention the amount of just straight up bias from various other posters at JoinDota, Reddit, or GosuGamers.net where people were just criticizing the Chinese players for things they didn't even do.
its funny how I just started to write my reply, when I saw that you already replied in my stead. nothing more to add.
EPT
Flash
Bisu
Jaedong
