EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XLVII - Page 2
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 07:36 Chairman Ray wrote: Regardless of the math, a day 1 lynch as the norm gets people talking. No lynch = no incentive to give up information. Unless everyone is super cooperative and gives great information, we lynch. Sacrificing an extra day and killing off a potential townsman is stupid as we can get a lot more information from power roles discovering stuff at night as well. AND GAIN AN EXTRA NIGHT OF POTENTIAL INFORMATION AND SAVES. So, I wouldn't necessarily jump to the hate all no lynch pattern. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 07:39 Umasi wrote: yeah, it would be the same. That said, we shouldn't ever plan to no lynch unless shit has either A: really hit the fan or B: we can win with jailkeep protects/doc protects/cop checks/something that you can logic out (see ....three games ago? with chromatically, where he singles out the SK as nightcat in such a pattern). despite the last game you played with me, I really am a fan of lynching every day. consider this situation last game, where it was stim/me/slam/deus if we nolynched, I'd have shot stim. we could have no lynched for more time, but that's also saying 'stim, your opinions are literally not worth acting upon.' No lynching if everyone is equally scummy (for some reason) isn't as bad, but still *shrug* lynching is the single power a vanilla townie has (which we all are in thread, btw), so no lynching to me is squandering that power. The game with you stim and slam etc etc is really really game specific so you don't actually know how it will play out. It definitely wouldn't work out like that if they didn't mason reveal or there weren't masons at all for example. Remember this is a game with EVEN amount of people, I presume the games you are all talking about where you must always lynch is in an odd player based game. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 07:51 Umasi wrote: anything else to add about anything? Holyflare: no lynching is 'occasionally alright'. I'll grant you that. But no lynching D1 is not good. the problem is you could be 'lynching a potential townsman' but the entire reason you are lynching that person is because they are more than likely a potential scummer! voting to no lynch because the target could be town is like not using your doctor save because your target could be scum and there'd be a vig shot on him. Like, is that sensible? not really. I'm gonna go to class, I'll be back later tonight. /afk that's dumb reasoning, a lynch day 1 is 75% likely to hit a townsperson compared to the 25% for scum. Especially considering within that 75% is likely to be 1 or 2 blue roles that would have to reveal and then subsequently be lost at night if they were the target to be lynched | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 07:53 Chairman Ray wrote: Has everyone got their QT yet? You should have received one by now. bar the troll, how much off forum mafia have you played? | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 07:58 Blurry wrote: I agree we should try and lynch day 1, but we need to do so intelligently based on pressuring information out of players allegiances. The thing you should do as town is try and post as actively as possible, but avoid any fluff. If you can't figure out who look scummy figure out who looks like a town player. I'm not liking the discussion about prior games, it really doesn't add anything to this one. I don't care that X player did Y in the game before because we've all played so few games that we won't have too many clear recognizable patterns to follow. I don't necessarily think its a scum-tell but I also don't think we should pursue it any further. I entirely disagree with you, meta has helped me determine who is who in every game I have played, especially in the newbie games. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:04 Blurry wrote: You get a lot more out of lynching than just the player dead, you also get loads of information on everybody and is one of the best ways to have the scum reveal themselves. Bandwagoning, Fence Sitting, Caving under pressure are some of the best ways to spot the scum and these are revealed when you lynch a player day 1. Since its plurality vote anyway, I'm going to be lynching somebody no matter what day 1, so now that the decision to lynch is taken out of your hands you better come up with some scum reads to not waste this day and reduce the chances of a mislynch. You can still vote no-lynch in a plurality, besides, I have only been suggesting the no-lynch if nothing comes to obvious light. The fact that you people are so eager to let us lose a day of mislynching is funny though because I don't think any of your arguments make sense. If our strongest weapon is our connection theories and our votes, THEN WHY IS IT NOT BETTER TO GET 1 MORE DAY OF THESE THINGS?????? Wagons can happen every fucking day on every lynch. Why are you all so eager to kill off potential townspeople?? | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
Also, while people may not approve of 'metaing' in the game, I will be doing a lot of it for my own sake, so do not poo-poo it. I am genuinely interested FOR MYSELF to hear if anyone has played with anyone else but I see most of the people I have not played with are relatively new so have no 'meta' as such. As for 'loaded questions' + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:13 Blurry wrote: A couple more things, please don't use loaded questions. I don't want to kill townspeople, but I also think that the risk of doing so is necessary to inspire discussion. Why does it have to be obvious that someone is scum? We should go off our best hunch rather than waste time. As far as + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 09:21 Umasi wrote: Posting on shitty iPod ATM, hope it formats correctly. Why are we still talking about the benefits and disadvantages of no lynching? Policy is a good conversation starter, not a good subject of conversation. Heavens, that post is worthless. Absolutely irrelevant. Said nothing. Role playing is something I am increasingly losing patience for. At least pretend to have read the discussion. Holy flare is wrong but townie, null on info, ray is scummy, heavens is scummiest, blurry is null. Heavens is scummiest for his entrance, ray for being active but useless. I'd rather wait for you to get back to elaborate on this and I have some queries for you when you do. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 11:56 Bereft wrote: missed this somehow earlier -- was posting from my phone. ray what do you mean by "everyone"? thought only mafia and masons get this privilege...... @holyflare - agreed that meta has its merits, especially in a newbie game. i think that newbies' meta could be easier to discern vs. vets because we aren't as self-aware in our game play. what i do find interesting is that per your comments, i went back to browse past games, and in the last game you were in, like the very first post i see you make right out of the gate advocates lynching all liars and lurkers. mind explaining the sudden change of heart? why initiate this topic of conversation? sure, you could argue about the "math" of not lynching, but while this ultimately comes down to a game about numbers (like survivor!) your speculation about the math of it all seems pointless to me, because how do you quantify something like the present value of future clues? the cost of inaction? etc etc. i like blurry's idea. it's a bit early for me to have much of an opinion, but why not: on the town-dar: umasi - a bit rude perhaps, but not afraid to tread on toes and call shit out. on the scum-dar: don't wanna seem like i'm just following you, but i gotta say lord velocity too. while my first instinct was also to be suspicious of holyflare for advocating no lynch, i think LV was a bit quick to FOS holyflare with a 1-liner just for that. because i could see several reasons why scum would prefer a lynch day 1. if anything they might even think they stand to gain more by lynching day 1 vs no lynch unless they're incredibly risk averse lol. Nothing has changed, I will lynch the lurkiest player (unless obvious modkill) on the first night if I must. I was bringing up the situation of no lynches because this game had started with an even amount of players (normal mafia games are odd numbers of players) and so it is within our favour to at least no lynch once. Especially if our blue roles are favourable but even without. I've explained that in my previous post. That being said I'm not telling you my scum reads or especially my town reads at this moment in time. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 12:20 Umasi wrote: I am around to talk to, class finished and I'm at my computer. Why not? he was like 'oh hoh hoh this is a clever way to catch scum' or he's a troll. or he's legitimately confused by how this game is played. strongest town read:You for asking this question and trying to talk about something productive. strongest scum read: vel, for calling me out as town and ignoring the other parts of my reads post, it feels like he thought I was a threat to be appeased. I also am leery of heavenz for ignoring the discussion. I'm not going to go into the revealing town reads in day 1 crap discussion again, what does it add? Nothing! Who cares who I THINK is town when everyone has posted like 1 post so far. Not only is there nothing to go on but revealing who I think is town just gives scum people to target if I die. As far as scum it's too early to tell really, yeh there's some scummy looking shit but until we hear more than 1 post from everyone there is nothing else to go on. Remember deus' first post in XLV, yeh, he was town. Admittedly, he cut the bs pretty quickly and went crazy aggressive but we've yet to see more from heavenz so it could all change. Any other 'reads' you all have at the moment are crazy speculation for now. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 12:34 Umasi wrote: Alright holyflare. We've beaten the subject of no lynching to death, which ended in you backtracking You've told us that we shouldn't talk about town/scum reads day one You didn't reveal your scum or town reads. Why am I here again? What are we talking about? moreover didn't you have questions for me? Did you forget them/forget to ask them? Totally just responded to Bereft that's why it's 'backtracked' or if you're implying I've changed my stance, I haven't. I'd like you to see what I wrote, It's just telling people that no-lynching is an option and it should be used within this game. Also, I never said not to talk about scum reads, just how can you possibly formulate a case on somebody so quickly????? If you want to accuse someone of being scum why would you publicly announce it SO early with the offchance that they could 180 on their whole style of writing because you picked out their name. Why not keep it to yourself and formulate the case based on your initial suspicions and when it comes close to actually lynching someone you'd have substantial reasoning for a lynch rather than, 'oh his first post was scummy but then he became better'... As for questions towards you, I asked for you to elaborate first before I asked the questions but now you've mimicked other peoples responses because you were away so I don't need to ask the questions anymore. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 12:39 Bereft wrote: hahaha ok dude, we'll try our best to survive the night without your brilliant insights. can't promise that we will though. it's not in our hands. (yours...maybe?) I don't expect you to understand if you are new to mafia but this is the way things are. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 12:53 Blurry wrote: The reason you voice your suspicions is because it puts pressure on that person. When someone is under pressure they make mistakes and reveal things they shouldn't. Write about your hunches, it also allows us to see if you are innocent, and yes, when you are town you need to prove your innocence by providing good analysis and leading the discussion. Which is what happens later in the day when you can form a concise and accurate analysis and put them under pressure as it is nearer the deadline when they have less time to react and re-read the entire thread to formulate a post and so it is off the top of their head and memory. NOT when they have all the time in the world, the filters and the ability to talk with their allies in QT to formulate a counter strategy and or bandwagon. There is 0 pressure from calling somebody scum now. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 13:02 Umasi wrote: ended in you backtracking the fucking conversation, not you backtracking your stance on it. I guess I was unclear. let me phrase this differently and in a totally explicit manner Holyflare, why are you against discussion? You helped get it going in the beginning, but you sure aren't anymore. In fact, it could be said that you are against discussion from occuring. That is blatantly scum agenda. ##VOTE HOLYFLARE Like I just said, it was in response to the question that Bereft just asked, and I also added what I thought at the end of the same post. I will absolutely not post my town reads. That has been my consistent theme throughout every game I have played and you should know that from the game you played with me and also from obsing the last game I was in. You are being way too over aggressive so early, it doesn't make any sense. I am not stemming conversation, I am telling you how to formulate a proper case with motives and reasonings in order to apply pressure when it matters, not now when you can easily just wifom your way out of accussations. In each of my games so far I have not posted my shit until it mattered and that is when the case was compelling enough for people to understand and agree with it. I am not going to post pointless stuff like 'yeh he said what I said so he's scummy' because you've done exactly that in this game but I hardly see anyone pointing fingers at you either. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 13:16 Umasi wrote: So we should not talk until scum fuck up. what happens if they don't? Why should they ever fuck up on day 1, what reason is there to? How bad would somebody have to be playing to reveal that they are actually scum on day 1?? They have the power of all knowledge what would be the reason for them to screw up. You are more than welcome to talk about your scum and town reads but I will most definitely not talk about my town reads today, scum reads will come later on in the day phase of course. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 12:58 Bereft wrote: ok, L, what do you propose we do in the meantime then? Highlight a post that you question and ask for an explanation. It adds a pseudo pressure whereby they don't need to formulate the post, they just need to explain themselves. That is where the scum hunting is found, not by saying X or Y is scum and he has to panic create posts. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 13:23 Umasi wrote: do we just sit here and twiddle thumbs? Fwiw, I totally fucked up day one last game. And I'm not prideful enough to call myself not awful, but purposefully not talking about something because you have information to hide is just stupid. I've never said not to talk I just said don't call people scum or announce them as 'reads', do what you just did and it's all good by me. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
The Players: 1. Umasi 2. Infii 3. heavenz 4. killerdog 5. myRZeth 6. Bereft 7. Pharcyd3 8. HolyFlare 9. Lord Velocity 10. Chairman Ray 11. LoneMeow 12. Blurry For the lazy, there it is. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On September 04 2013 13:38 Blurry wrote: Two things: Scum read in retaliation to him questioning you is pretty suspicious. You aren't helping your case with that, especially because your analysis is flawed. Aggression at the start is in no way indicative of scum, and if anything, is more a town indicator than anything, especially when he is leading the charge against a player. It is really risky for scum to be so direct because it draws so much attention to them. Umasi is probably my biggest town read for that reason right now. Aggression is one thing but tunnelling is a whole different matter. Read Umasi's 2nd page and notice how every post towards me jumps to something new without addressing my last answer. Also notice how he ignores the posts around my post that lead to my the things he is criticising and then uses them as reasoning for his vote. That is dangerous town/bad behaviour that you shouldn't necessarily attribute to townies. The constant criticism of one player always shuts the door on other players who are sitting back and watching things happen. Killerdog brings up some excellent points about other players that we should all be addressing. However, as they are most likely not around for now we can't do that. As lord vel is the only one that people had substantial queries towards who is still around you should also be pressing him and leaving questions for the people that aren't here to catch up on later. Especially as scum seem to skip over threads because they aren't scumhunting compared to the town that want to catch up on every detail. You should see who responds to these questions when they come back. and of course, you may ask me whatever questions about what I have said that you deem relevant | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
oh sorry EBWOP: 'panic' | ||
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