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United States7483 Posts
On November 21 2012 14:43 Dubsy wrote:
True I guess your still adding to your army. And I guess if your gonna research something from lair you might as well go drop (although that takes longer iirc). Fair enough. Asked and answered.
Yeah, there was actually a game in GSL in the r16 where a player in Abyssal City actually just micro'd his push around for a few minutes against MVPsniper because he couldn't bust him, but he kept buying time by being aggressive and cutting off small portions of the army so Sniper couldn't afford to tech, and he actually maxxed out on the 2 base all-in and just killed sniper due to the inefficiency of a pure zergling/roach max army.
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On November 20 2012 02:22 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 18:23 6xFPCs wrote:
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution. As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS. Here're some examples from my own play vs a masters toss going reactionary hydra, discussed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out: http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately. With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone. Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build.
I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example:
http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead.
If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies.
Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
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Is it a requirement to try bait out forcefields? Can you simply just try for a flank?
I find that baiting forcefields is way to risky and usually results me losing lots of units. Also the fact that protosses seem to never forcefield when you are trying to bait xD
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On November 21 2012 18:31 blug wrote:
Is it a requirement to try bait out forcefields? Can you simply just try for a flank?
I find that baiting forcefields is way to risky and usually results me losing lots of units. Also the fact that protosses seem to never forcefield when you are trying to bait xD
He has enough sentries to entirely surround his army with FF and then some, if you don't bait any as he walks over, and that will negate any flank attempts that you set up as part of the One Big Engagement. If you wait until he's at your third, he will blanket the entire world in FFs and you will lose the hatch. I have never seen anyone win, or even come close to stabilizing, after losing the third, the loss of 1/3 or 1/4 of your production is crippling and ensures you die when he walks over to your natural.
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On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 02:22 Defenestrator wrote:On November 19 2012 18:23 6xFPCs wrote:
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution. As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS. Here're some examples from my own play vs a masters toss going reactionary hydra, discussed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out: http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately. With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone. Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build. I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example: http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead. If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies. Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
I missed this, actually. Sounds interesting, sounds complete in theory, although of course hydras make me a little wary. I will go through your replays tomorrow afternoon/evening and post my thoughts. I'll probably look at mavvie's replay, too.
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The best way to know if hydra are the answer is to practice it on the ladder and see how it goes. as I have 99% loss against this all in, I'll try and see how it goes.
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On November 21 2012 19:22 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote:On November 20 2012 02:22 Defenestrator wrote:On November 19 2012 18:23 6xFPCs wrote:
Read the thread. There are a few pro game examples of hydras still losing (posted twice now, it seems), because they also suck against FF, and are always fragile. So even if it wasn't a big deal that toss can abort the push and take a third and add a robo bay (which is SUPER easy for toss to do, and you don't actually address it in either point, he can even leave after walking all the way over, you'll be hard-pressed to chase him down and still win the fight), you still risk losing to the push due to FFing followed by zealot warp-ins. Zealots are awesome against lings and hydras, and FF will ensure that they don't get kited.
I'd say hydras have been demonstrated to be a poor solution, if they can even be called a solution. As I posted before, these "examples" are pretty bad. Sen, despite his other significant strengths, is not that great at holding immo/sentry, as evidenced by WCS. Here're some examples from my own play vs a masters toss going reactionary hydra, discussed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647¤tpage=12#226Note that in all these games, I build hydras AFTER he pushes out: http://drop.sc/276966 - On Cloud Kingdom, pretty normal game. http://drop.sc/276967 - On Cloud Kingdom again. I have to pull drones, but I mop up pretty easily with reinforcements. http://drop.sc/276964 - On Daybreak. An example of a game where I have about equal drones with his probes (I had to drone pull) after the fight, but because I'm able to resupply drones quickly and tech switch I win pretty easily. http://drop.sc/276968 - A loss on Ohana. My hydras don't have enough of a meat shield this game because I overcommitted and didn't pull drones appropriately. With hydras, your build still has to be very clean, and if all your ling/roach die, you HAVE to pull drones to tank for your hydras, or pull back to wait for reinforcements. Never let your hydras fight alone. Also on upgrades: I'm leaning towards +1 carapace to buff your whole army and not have your lings 2-shotted by zeals. Still experimenting though. Low drone counts in the game come from me not being that good with my macro; I think you can drone to 55ish pretty safely before producing units in this build. I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example: http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead. If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies. Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P I missed this, actually. Sounds interesting, sounds complete in theory, although of course hydras make me a little wary. I will go through your replays tomorrow afternoon/evening and post my thoughts. I'll probably look at mavvie's replay, too.
Yeah, it's a good idea! I'm convinced that you're in a shitty position if he fakes a push out (with only 2 immortals or something), then takes a third. Whatever, it'll be cool to try out more. I'll read that thread shortly
As a warning about my replay: my opponent sucks, but I execute the defense timings close to optimally.
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On November 21 2012 22:10 Mavvie wrote:
Yeah, it's a good idea! I'm convinced that you're in a shitty position if he fakes a push out (with only 2 immortals or something), then takes a third. Whatever, it'll be cool to try out more. I'll read that thread shortly
If you're really on top of your game and you see him just clear the watchtower and pull back, you can always cancel your hydras and get your res back =P
I don't think this is necessary though; a low number of hydras in a max'd army is a lot better than pure roach or pure roach/ling or whatever since they'll stay alive and do good dps. Same idea with adding a few hydras to zvz; few hydra with mass roach > mass roach.
At the level required for a toss player to fake a moveout, you should have tried to get a worker count on him to see if he was leaning allin, as Suppy said (I don't do this, a tad too high level for me =P). You should also keep an OL/ling at his 3rd to see if/when he drops it immediately. If your ling/OL dies replace it right away; if you think he's going allin for too long and you delay tech/drones, you can be in trouble.
Still, there are numerous followups to if he decides to go colossus instead of push, with or without a 3rd. If you disagree with the decisions made in the last replay I posted, just look at the state of the game when he retreats; I could have gone for drop/banerain, infestor/spine (with same spire timing for earlier corruptors), maybe even taken a 4th, etc.
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I mentioned this in your other thread, but I'll also say it here.
I recommend proxying the hydralisk den and letting it die off of creep so that
a) he's less likely to see it if he did happen to go obs first, so he's less likely to rush out a colossus
b) removes the temptation to make hydralisks at any other point in the game apart from the one specific moment where you may need them
bonus: hatch/cancel the hydra den on his 3rd base
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i really hate this allin.. i m soooo bad vs this build. I have just lost a game in which i made the "suppy build".. i hit 70 supply at 8 minute mark and when the attack came i had 10 spines (i left my third completley), 5 infestors, ling with +1 carapce and i lost.. probably due to a bad micro/engagement.. but i don't know its hard to hold for me.
I play vs high diamond and low master and at least 8 /10 toss use this allin. crazy.
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On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote:I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example: http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead. If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies. Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
With the usual caveats that I don't play Zerg and I'm not knowedgable about the details, Defenestrator's choice of using hydras makes a lot of sense to me.
The goal is to be able to survive the immortal/sentry push without crippling yourself against everything else. In this case, Defenestrator can scout that Protoss has delayed his third base, has 4 gases and an immortal+sentry composition, so Protoss has just two good options: all-in, or take a slow third base.
If preemptively building 10 or so hydras before Protoss commits allows you to defend the all-in, then you only need to worry about the option where Protoss takes a late third base. In this case, you've deviated from your optimal path by slowing your droning somewhat and spending gas on hydras. But in order to sell the all-in, Protoss must also deviate from his optimal path by delaying his third, reducing his worker count (which you should be able to scout on most maps), making more sentries than will be optimal when infestors are out, and potentially delaying his AoE tech.
In light of everything Protoss sacrifices to sell the all-in and force this reaction out of Zerg, I don't think Zerg's being forced to build some hydras is a big problem. As Defenestrator noted, it's not difficult to get corruptors and infestors out to defend a 3-base push. You may have to delay broodlords somewhat in order to do so, but this is another situation where you're just riding out an all-in. 17 minute broodlords can be just as game-winning as 15-minute broodlords.
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I do the hydra thing sometimes. With good creepspread you can chase his retreat and kill lots of stuff.
By the moment he see's your hydras, stop making them after about 12 and start making corruptors and teching into broods (skipping infestors), and lings as the mineral dump. Overdoing the corruptors will let you kill the collosus really fast so your hydras can still pay off.
Hydra broodlord is very cool. Maybe not as good as infestor brood, but pretty damn cool.
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On November 21 2012 16:25 Defenestrator wrote:I've been refining the "reactionary hydra" idea further, and I tested with my masters toss friend on the retreat option. A typical criticism of going hydra is that he can just retreat and go colossi. However, colossi take SO long to get that you can easily transition to corruptor and max out in time, while droning and getting to 6 gas (if he goes to 2base). Here is an example: http://drop.sc/277488 - He sees my hydra/ling army and retreats. I immediately drone and scout him. When I see the robo bay, I drop a spire and max out on roach. He pushes with 3 colossi and I crush it pretty easily. He ends up basically basetrading with me because I handle his warp prism harass really poorly, but I'm so flushed with cash that I max out and have to build a ton of spines to free up supply for corruptors. I engage horribly, especially when attacking into him, and nearly ignore his harass, don't get infestors or tech to hive, but I win because I'm miles ahead. If he goes to 3base, it's like the game resets where you have 55 to 45 workers and slightly more tech with equal armies. Does anyone have any response to this idea? Haven't gotten any replies, so I'm thinking of starting its own thread, though I think it belongs here =P
Dude I want the hydra idea to be good but all this game proves is that if you catch the toss player afk in the middle of the map you can kill him. I don't want to be harsh but real talk, the dude rolled out with 170 food before his third colossus and +2 weapons were done, a-moved into a spine wall + maxed army, totally didn't forcefield at all despite having 8 full energy sentries, didn't even react to corruptors targetting down his colossi, and took a ton of free damage trying to just walk back to base in the meantime. There's no way this is a serious example.
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The hydra idea, I don't know. May work in some games and not work in others, one thing I can think as a protoss player is that if I see the zerg has gone for hydras I don't retreat and switch colossi, I just push as hard as I can and warp in zealots + additional sentris as needed.
One thing to say about hydras, tho: if you can use them, even at the cost of wasting some, to snipe the warp prism (by setting up a flank or whatever), then they can be well worth it. Without the prism it becomes increasingly difficult to keep those immortals alive (and granted, they are not the best vs hydras but they still are a heck of a lot of firepower investment in that push) and to keep the sentries alive too. Also, losing the prism means you will have to fall back to your pylons to warp in reinforcements.
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On November 22 2012 06:01 jumai wrote:
Dude I want the hydra idea to be good but all this game proves is that if you catch the toss player afk in the middle of the map you can kill him. I don't want to be harsh but real talk, the dude rolled out with 170 food before his third colossus and +2 weapons were done, a-moved into a spine wall + maxed army, totally didn't forcefield at all despite having 8 full energy sentries, didn't even react to corruptors targetting down his colossi, and took a ton of free damage trying to just walk back to base in the meantime. There's no way this is a serious example.
Yeah and I overmake roach, don't get infestors (which I think I had time for), don't flank, and have minimal micro. Honestly I think his control is slightly better than mine overall.
Also he wasn't AFK'ing, he was dropping and doing a lot of damage. The big takeaway from the replay (to me) is the state of the game after he retreats. I'm about equal/slightly ahead in tech, equal/slightly ahead in army (for the time being), and waaay ahead in eco. There's no way that a Z should lose in that position with correct play.
And as for attacking in to a spine wall, what was he supposed to do? The more he delays the more chance I have to spine up and get a better army. The main argument for retreating and going to colossi is that the Z would be vulnerable because he has hydra/ling, but there's just so much of a delay off of 2-base to colossi that this hardly matters.
On November 22 2012 06:25 RehnFreemark wrote:
The hydra idea, I don't know. May work in some games and not work in others, one thing I can think as a protoss player is that if I see the zerg has gone for hydras I don't retreat and switch colossi, I just push as hard as I can and warp in zealots + additional sentris as needed.
I definitely agree with this; this is a much better option. I think the fight favors the Z player, but the P player can still win with good engage/forcefield and if Z screws up slightly (see the replay of me losing on Ohana above). If the Z engages correctly though I think he has a much better chance of holding.
On November 22 2012 06:25 RehnFreemark wrote:
One thing to say about hydras, tho: if you can use them, even at the cost of wasting some, to snipe the warp prism (by setting up a flank or whatever), then they can be well worth it. Without the prism it becomes increasingly difficult to keep those immortals alive (and granted, they are not the best vs hydras but they still are a heck of a lot of firepower investment in that push) and to keep the sentries alive too. Also, losing the prism means you will have to fall back to your pylons to warp in reinforcements.
Yup. If you watch the replays, I generally snipe the warp prism with no micro. Toss has to pay some attention to keep the warp prism alive in the first place.
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Do you guys think the range upgrade for hydras is worth if you are trying to hold with hydra? Range is great but it's so expensive considering you'd only build like 12 or so
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On November 22 2012 09:30 Zrana wrote:
Do you guys think the range upgrade for hydras is worth if you are trying to hold with hydra? Range is great but it's so expensive considering you'd only build like 12 or so
I don't think range is worth it for holding the push; it's 150/150, and it will hit in the middle of the engagement anyway with the build above (80s research time). I would rather have more units upfront with that money (3 gas worth of hydra), and I don't think it's worth getting before he moves out since you don't want to pour resources into an upgrade for a unit you're not going to use.
However, if he retreats and you're left with 6+ hydra, I think range is a worthy investment since it will come in time for your next engagement and make your hydras a lot more effective.
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PartinG done it all throughout WCS, everyone knew he would do it before the game even begun, and still no one can stop it.
Yet zerg are getting nerfed? Please explain
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It's not imbalanced when one of the best Protoss players in the world uses perfect micro, macro, and decision making and is able to beat a foreigner who hasn't even qualified ever for the GSL. Also any Zerg nerfs don't affect this all in in the slightest...infestors aren't in time anyway. A nerf that would affect this is "Roach range decreased to -1" or something else retarded 
I believe infestor changes are also so that lategame is fixed (to some extent; I personally think that invincible mothership, DT, and WP is a little much but this isn't balance discussion thread).
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Watch defenestrator's replays, hydra looks damn solid. Even without range, the fact that you can stand toe-to-toe with any kind of sentry-immortal push is really promising. Add in the fact that your build gets 1-1 lings, and you have the staying power and consistency needed to properly claim that you have a solution.
The one qualm I have--and it's kind of a big one--is that your buddy warps pure stalker, even after engaging and seeing nearly all hydra-ling. I seriously question that decision, though maybe some of our toss buddies (especially the ones in blue) can enlighten me. My understanding is that zealots+FF is way more threatening to hydras than stalker+FF, and ensures that you don't need as many FF to defend your sentry-immortal core against lings anyway. Perhaps you have enough to hold, I wouldn't be surprised if you held with decent micro against pure zealot warp-ins, but I think it's worth mentioning. Also, I think that had he not botched the FF on Cloud game 2 (replay ending **67, i think?), he would've taken out the hatch and been able to eventually push in.
Based on the Ohana game you win, I am fairly convinced that you do have time for spire tech. The Daybreak game is also a good example. You're definitely spot on in saying that you have time to get the spire and get corruptors in time for the push.
Props for mentioning the drone pull from the 3rd base, it is an awesome move to pull out and seems to work wonders, and in this type of defense is definitely something you want to do as something more than last ditch (because last ditch is too late). An awesome extra option that moves ling-hydra from pretty solid to damn solid. Just want to note for readers that you really do need to drone back up and replace the drones you lose in the pull, both sen and defenestrator drop to mid-high 30s when they use the drone pull to mop up.
So yeah, my verdict is that ling-hydra (with 1-1 lings, or at least 0-1, and rangeless hydra) looks like a solid option, pending some fight data on zealot-heavy variants of the push. Thanks for sharing.
p.s. Anyone who has further qualms, note that kcdc kind of supports ling-hydra as the proper defense as well. Taken together, that's more than enough for me to start working on ling-hydra myself.
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EPT
