EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXII - Page 17
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Golbat (as an aside, am I the only person that has trouble typing Golbat instead of Goldbat?) :[
Two other people that I am minorly interested in: goodkarma I find repeatedly pushing to have lurkers lynched is an anti-town trait. Our goal is to lynch scum. You claim it's impossible to make solid reads on day 1, but without people making reads, our ability to get successful lynches later in the game diminishes. Repeatedly trying to sheep us back onto lurkers and away from active cases is suspicious. Mordanis While I don't find his initial case against me particularly suspicious (other than the fact that it was pure WIFOM) because it could reasonably have been made by either town or mafia, he hasn't full escaped my notice. He repeatedly tried to assert that I wasn't blue. What good is that information to town, and why did he feel the need to point it out? Town never has a reason to "blue hunt", but scum always does. I really feel like Golbat is our best chance of flipping scum at the moment, so: ##Vote Golbat | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
Shady said that he looked through 20 games without seeing any mafia lynched D1. I referenced 20 games with 5 scum lynched D1. This is Irrelevant. Claiming it is a lie is a stretch and nothing you stated does anything to further the case against Shady Sands nor do I believe it to be a legitimate reason to flip from golbat (who to you has scumslipped etc. and whom you had been pushing on for the majority of your previous posts) to Shady Sands. Darth: Where did I lie? I want one expression that is a bald-faced lie. You have admitted to pursuing a case against keirathi that you didn't believe was true. You're right, I didn't really believe the case, but there isn't any real pressure generated by "Hey i dont believe wat im sayin, but i think X is scum" The reason I left the case on Keir is because there wasn't really a case. So you still haven't given a legitimate reason to dropping your case on golbat, had nothing to add to the sandy shades case you jumped onto. and then, when questioned: To keep myself honest, I'll go ahead and ## unvote. How many times did you claim Golbat to be flip flopping his vote around? I want to point out that I think several people are going about scum-hunting the wrong way. Play that hurts town but benefits scum is indicative of scumminess. Illogical posting is not necessarily scummy though. This is a tautology. Illogical posting does hurt town. It obscures the crux of you arguement and makes it more difficult to read through and analyze your positions. The point is I don't believe you to be guilty of illogical arguments and nothing more. The 1st case you pursued you didn't believe. The second case you pursue, and the only one in which you post anything of substance, is dropped out of nowhere with no real explanation.The third case you move onto because you meta read golbat with obvious' previous play then drop the case against him. You jump on the shady sands case yet you add nothing to the case against that person and when questioned drop that vote immediately. Then move back to Golbat. You are also guilty of basing entire arguments on WIFOM, wishy-washy-ness, appearing to but not actually contributing to cases, saying things whilst saying nothing etc. I am going to a party and should be back before Deadline which i may stay up for 7am my time. However in case something goes wrong, i am putting my vote with mordanis. ##Vote: Mordanis | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
Well, a few things have changed since I was away, I see. aR: I actually found your Haiku to be pretty easy to read. I'm glad you stopped with them since one or two took some time for me to work out but in general I don't feel that they obscured your ideas too much. Unless I'm shit-house retarded this Reading through the thread. Lots of material to work with, nice job town. was posted two hours ago by SS and he never said anything else. I'll be voting for him based on my earlier case and his lurky response to it, if there was a case on me I'd do my damndest to explain my behaviour to town and make sure that people hunt scum instead of me. So, Shady seems really suspicious to me and I will be voting for him, I hope you all will join me and lynch this scum bastard today. I'll be up for a while more and may pop back in to the thread before going to sleep. I probably won't post again after sleeping until 24 hours from now when I get out of work tomorrow. For now: ##Vote: ShadySands | ||
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alan133
Malaysia159 Posts
I disagree that we should focus on lynching lurkers at this point of time. We have better lynch targets out there, so I suggest we focus on them. The problem with lynching lurkers day 1 is that it is much harder to make the correct call this early on. Later into the game, townies get more information so we can make a better decision when it comes to low content poster. Also, when it comes to lurking, there are two types of them: 1) Those that post very little, and 2) those that post a lot of junk post. I suggest we drop the lynch lurker discussion and go on scumhunting. It is fine if you want to call out a lurker but with better evidence other than "he lurks". The first successful lynch we got in my last game was a lurker, and despite having very little post count they are all really scummy. The reason you voted aRyuujin also fits in a few other players, MrMedic, Keirathi and Zorkmid to name a few. You addressed one more point why you intend to lynch him instead of the others:
I don't think you should pursue a aRyuujin lynch as of now, a few players have argue that they are not in favor of a lurker lynch (That includes me). I skimmed through his post and the scummy thing I got off him is his poems, which he stopped doing. Current Situation That said, I am feeling very uncomfortable with how the game is progressing. Compare to my first game, the activity level is really poor, and the "active posts" were mostly about Mordanis, Golbat and Shady, based on what has been brought up since 24 hours ago. Also, I did not count, but the impression I got was that is set to be lynched. I feel discouraged because I read Golbat is the least scummy one, of all 3. So I did a re-read on all their filters. Shady I went through Shady's post. Skimming through his filter reminded me of this eerie feeling when I read about his policies and advices, which a few other players have highlighted, so I am not going to repeat after them. There are also one other post in his filter that I am not a big fan of: I'd go with Golbat right now as I think lynching him does one of two things: 1) He flips red, in which case we've gotten a D1 red lynch which puts us in the 75% win range 2) He flips green or blue, in which case Mordanis will be under quite a bit of pressure Like I said, our focus is to lynch a scum, not what happens if player x flips scum. This is the kind of post that got Scum killed in my first game. However, the severity aren't as bad as the one since it is not a list of "what if we kill this player". Also, although my last game has a successful day 1 lynch, I thought Shady just missed it since there are so many games out there. However, Mordanis' did a list of day 1 lynch and from there I saw day 1 scum lynch is not as uncommon as stated. I originally think Shady's willingness to do his research on other games is a townie trait, and I did not put my pressure on him because of this. However, with this new information, I believe Shady lied. TL:DR I am slightly inclined to believe he is Scum. Golbat After re-reading Golbat's filter, my stance on Golbat is townie remain unchanged. Here is my defence for him. Golbat reminds me of my first game. I basically was wishy-washy because I believe we shouldn't jump to conclusions and town is going after me because of that. I spent most of my entire day 1 defending myself. Someone mentioned Golbat spent most of his time explaining why he is town. I say this is a normal newbie townie reaction when people is after you. Golbat's pulling out of Mordanis' case is his biggest scum tell. However, follow this logic: Assuming scum Golbat. Why would he pull out? There are 3 more players after Mordanis if I am not wrong. Assuming Mordanis is town, he could have easily gotten a mislynch. Also, if Golbat is red, pulling out means he would not want to associate himself for pushing for a mislynch. Why would he blatantly say that? So that all of you would jump on him? Town sided Golbat would fit in this behaviour. However I also want to add that lynching aRyuujin could potentially be a boon to town because his writing in haiku is really really annoying and despite vomiting poems all over the thread, he has hardly said anything original or useful. I maintain my position that our focus is to lynch a scum, nothing else. However, reading through this thread I found quite a few players doing it, and obviously they all can't be scum. I suggest focus on scum hunting with what information we have now, instead of thinking what information we could get if we lynch the person TL:DR I am against lynching Golbat. Mordanis His post has improved after the ones that accuse Kei for being not blue. Also, he went so far as to check on other games just to find out if Shady is lying, suggested that he is willing to go through the trouble to scum hunt someone for what he said. There is also scum sided explanation: he could be a scum over-committed to twist every word to get a mislynch. However, I think the later is less plausible. With him being the first one to start the scum hunt game, I am willing to overlook the part where he "cares about who is not blue". TL:DR I am swayed to believe Mordanis is less of a scum, I am not a big fan of lynching him right now As the dead line is approaching, I suggest we narrow down the lynch targets. I believe we need at least 7 votes to lynch. I am strongly against no-lynch. That said, I would like to commit my vote to: ##vote: Shady_Sands based on the reasoning above. | ||
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alan133
Malaysia159 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 28 2012 20:36 Promethelax wrote: Hi all! Back from work late and I'm blasted to bare with me if I'm not making sense, I'll clarify after I sleep and wake up if anything is obfuscated by my mental sate right now. Well, a few things have changed since I was away, I see. aR: I actually found your Haiku to be pretty easy to read. I'm glad you stopped with them since one or two took some time for me to work out but in general I don't feel that they obscured your ideas too much. Unless I'm shit-house retarded this was posted two hours ago by SS and he never said anything else. I'll be voting for him based on my earlier case and his lurky response to it, if there was a case on me I'd do my damndest to explain my behaviour to town and make sure that people hunt scum instead of me. So, Shady seems really suspicious to me and I will be voting for him, I hope you all will join me and lynch this scum bastard today. I'll be up for a while more and may pop back in to the thread before going to sleep. I probably won't post again after sleeping until 24 hours from now when I get out of work tomorrow. For now: ##Vote: ShadySands Have a more substantive post on the front burner, but I think this post is something we need to note. Look through Promethelax's filter: he makes an accusation against me, then signs off, sees no response to his accusations and says I'm lurking, then calls for a lynch because someone hasn't responded to his accusations yet. His reasoning in going from FoS Shady Sands to Vote Shady Sands is a single two-hour old post that says I'm reading through the thread. I think we have better candidates to lynch, but this behavior strikes me as fairly scummy. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 28 2012 20:42 alan133 wrote: Goodkarma I disagree that we should focus on lynching lurkers at this point of time. We have better lynch targets out there, so I suggest we focus on them. The problem with lynching lurkers day 1 is that it is much harder to make the correct call this early on. Later into the game, townies get more information so we can make a better decision when it comes to low content poster. Also, when it comes to lurking, there are two types of them: 1) Those that post very little, and 2) those that post a lot of junk post. I suggest we drop the lynch lurker discussion and go on scumhunting. It is fine if you want to call out a lurker but with better evidence other than "he lurks". The first successful lynch we got in my last game was a lurker, and despite having very little post count they are all really scummy. The reason you voted aRyuujin also fits in a few other players, MrMedic, Keirathi and Zorkmid to name a few. You addressed one more point why you intend to lynch him instead of the others:
I don't think you should pursue a aRyuujin lynch as of now, a few players have argue that they are not in favor of a lurker lynch (That includes me). I skimmed through his post and the scummy thing I got off him is his poems, which he stopped doing. Current Situation That said, I am feeling very uncomfortable with how the game is progressing. Compare to my first game, the activity level is really poor, and the "active posts" were mostly about Mordanis, Golbat and Shady, based on what has been brought up since 24 hours ago. Also, I did not count, but the impression I got was that is set to be lynched. I feel discouraged because I read Golbat is the least scummy one, of all 3. So I did a re-read on all their filters. Shady I went through Shady's post. Skimming through his filter reminded me of this eerie feeling when I read about his policies and advices, which a few other players have highlighted, so I am not going to repeat after them. There are also one other post in his filter that I am not a big fan of: Like I said, our focus is to lynch a scum, not what happens if player x flips scum. This is the kind of post that got Scum killed in my first game. However, the severity aren't as bad as the one since it is not a list of "what if we kill this player". Also, although my last game has a successful day 1 lynch, I thought Shady just missed it since there are so many games out there. However, Mordanis' did a list of day 1 lynch and from there I saw day 1 scum lynch is not as uncommon as stated. I originally think Shady's willingness to do his research on other games is a townie trait, and I did not put my pressure on him because of this. However, with this new information, I believe Shady lied. TL:DR I am slightly inclined to believe he is Scum. Golbat After re-reading Golbat's filter, my stance on Golbat is townie remain unchanged. Here is my defence for him. Golbat reminds me of my first game. I basically was wishy-washy because I believe we shouldn't jump to conclusions and town is going after me because of that. I spent most of my entire day 1 defending myself. Someone mentioned Golbat spent most of his time explaining why he is town. I say this is a normal newbie townie reaction when people is after you. Golbat's pulling out of Mordanis' case is his biggest scum tell. However, follow this logic: Assuming scum Golbat. Why would he pull out? There are 3 more players after Mordanis if I am not wrong. Assuming Mordanis is town, he could have easily gotten a mislynch. Also, if Golbat is red, pulling out means he would not want to associate himself for pushing for a mislynch. Why would he blatantly say that? So that all of you would jump on him? Town sided Golbat would fit in this behaviour. However I maintain my position that our focus is to lynch a scum, nothing else. However, reading through this thread I found quite a few players doing it, and obviously they all can't be scum. I suggest focus on scum hunting with what information we have now, instead of thinking what information we could get if we lynch the person TL:DR I am against lynching Golbat. Mordanis His post has improved after the ones that accuse Kei for being not blue. Also, he went so far as to check on other games just to find out if Shady is lying, suggested that he is willing to go through the trouble to scum hunt someone for what he said. There is also scum sided explanation: he could be a scum over-committed to twist every word to get a mislynch. However, I think the later is less plausible. With him being the first one to start the scum hunt game, I am willing to overlook the part where he "cares about who is not blue". TL:DR I am swayed to believe Mordanis is less of a scum, I am not a big fan of lynching him right now As the dead line is approaching, I suggest we narrow down the lynch targets. I believe we need at least 7 votes to lynch. I am strongly against no-lynch. That said, I would like to commit my vote to: ##vote: Shady_Sands based on the reasoning above. Going to answer Alan's post in more detail, but for now responding to the specific claim that I lied about the D1 lynches: the search filter I used was "TL Mafia" in the search box above, which returned about 20 different mafia games. I scrolled through them until I found a clear Day 1, and used those as tallies. That's why my figures are so low--because most of the games I found with that filter were early games with lots of players. If I'm guilty, I'm guilty of making a bad search filter, not intentionally lying. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On July 28 2012 21:00 Shady Sands wrote: Have a more substantive post on the front burner, but I think this post is something we need to note. Look through Promethelax's filter: he makes an accusation against me, then signs off, sees no response to his accusations and says I'm lurking, then calls for a lynch because someone hasn't responded to his accusations yet. His reasoning in going from FoS Shady Sands to Vote Shady Sands is a single two-hour old post that says I'm reading through the thread. I think we have better candidates to lynch, but this behavior strikes me as fairly scummy. ah, no. You're wrong there. We're getting close to deadline for me (because I'll be asleep for a while) and no one has shown me anything that makes me think anyone is scummier than you or that you are town and therefore less scummy than someone else. I didn't place my vote early because I don't like to vote really early. I Placed my vote when the thread had time to do its thing and make other cases or defenses, I like to be informed before I make my decisions. I would have voted for you even without your most recent post. I just thought I would mention it since I had a chase against you and more post was, once again, scummy. tl;dr I was going to vote you unless 1) you had posted a convincing defense of yourself or 2)someone had made a case that made me think someone was scummier than you. Neither of those things happened while I was at work. I voted for you. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 28 2012 13:46 Golbat wrote: I'll probably be able to read the thread before I have to go to work tomorrow morning, but in case I don't get that chance, ##Vote aRyujin This is why I am voting for him: His haiku style makes it easy for him to fill up his posts with a shit load of waffle and some nearly baseless accusations and almost get away with it. I hope in between now and deadline the eye of suspicion takes a long, hard look at him, because his confusing waffle is nothing short of a full-on impediment to real discussion. I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons : His direct swap from "I agree with golbat, let's lynch Mord" after Mord drew such attention to himself to "Let's lynch Golbat and then Mord, because one of them HAS to be scum" after people started questioning me is something that I don't think anybody else agreed with. The way he seemed so concrete about who we should lynch for multiple days is really suspicious. We should be picking lynches on a day by day basis as more discussion takes place, not queue up our votes for several days straight. Right now these two seem to me to be the most scummy. Of course, if someone else decides to act scummy as all get out, i'd be happy to vote for them as well, but at the moment these two seem the most suspicious. Hopefully i'll be able to get back and read/contribute more in the morning, as i'll be at work when the deadline hits and won't be home for three or four hours after that. His rationale for voting aRyujin basically boils down to "aRyujin posts in Haiku--therefore he is a worthless townie--therefore we should lynch him." Simplified, Golbat is saying that we should lynch aRyujin because there would be no loss if aRyujin was gone. Apart from the fact that our poet has switched to normal prose from his prior haikus, Golbat's analysis is so simplistic and vapid that it would make me laugh were it not such a clear indication of scummy play. Now let's look at what Golbat was doing in response to his own accusations: On July 28 2012 05:24 Golbat wrote: Okay, now I'm back. It looks like pretty much everyone else in the thread seems to think I'm scum. Well that's not good, because i'm not. You all seem to think that my incredibly poor play has something to do with me being scum, when that's not the case at all. I'm town. I'm very town, I'm just bad. I Honestly thought all of my posts were helpful when I posted them. I can see now why they aren't. I also think you can do better than lynching me. I propose instead that today we lynch someone who hasn't been a part of the conversation much, as it's entirely possible that the mafia has decided to sit back and let me and Mord go at it while the town analyzes itself to pieces. I feel that in that regard, Keir has been suspiciously quiet so far. Besides defending himself from Mord's suspicions early on, and this post, + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 15:32 Keirathi wrote: @goodkarma: I mostly agree with your assessment of Mordanis. I feel like it would be a really silly play for a mafia to try to pull this early. It *WAS* a suspiciously weak case though, but mostly I feel like it was a townie trying to find something to push rather than a scum trying to start a bandwagon. I'll be keeping my eye on him though, that's for sure. About your suspects: aRyuujin I don't really have much to comment about him. I feel like its too early to start qualifying people as lurkers. It is the middle of the night in US times, so I suspect a lot of people are sleeping. MrMedic In his longest post, he did have some good insight despite how hard the post was to follow. He noted how each point of the Mordanis case against me seemed to be trying to paint me dying in a good light. Would definitely like to hear more from him, hopefully in an easier to follow writing style next time though. Promethelax People have to work and sleep. I've played with Prom before, I have no doubt that he'll be active when he has time. People have to work and sleep, they can't be active 24 hours a day. That being said, Prom has been scum in most (all?) of his previous games, so I'm definitely keeping an eye on him  On July 27 2012 11:46 Keirathi wrote: @Goldbat: At the same time, you can't just give people a free ride for lurking. Like Mordanis pointed out + Show Spoiler + Mordanis wrote: Easiest way for scum to win is to have town all say "Yeah, Lurkers are a bad target, we'll always lynch our best read". Its a pretty common scum strategy to lurk while the active townies FOS all over each other, and eventually kill themselves. It's a balancing act of deciding if people are "lurking with intent" or just townies not posting much. So basically Golbat is saying, Keir is quiet, let's lynch him. Then Golbat says aRyujin is posting Haikus, let's lynch him. Then he shifts to Shady Sands: On July 28 2012 13:46 Golbat wrote: I'll probably be able to read the thread before I have to go to work tomorrow morning, but in case I don't get that chance, ##Vote aRyujin This is why I am voting for him: His haiku style makes it easy for him to fill up his posts with a shit load of waffle and some nearly baseless accusations and almost get away with it. I hope in between now and deadline the eye of suspicion takes a long, hard look at him, because his confusing waffle is nothing short of a full-on impediment to real discussion. I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons : His direct swap from "I agree with golbat, let's lynch Mord" after Mord drew such attention to himself to "Let's lynch Golbat and then Mord, because one of them HAS to be scum" after people started questioning me is something that I don't think anybody else agreed with. The way he seemed so concrete about who we should lynch for multiple days is really suspicious. We should be picking lynches on a day by day basis as more discussion takes place, not queue up our votes for several days straight. Right now these two seem to me to be the most scummy. Of course, if someone else decides to act scummy as all get out, i'd be happy to vote for them as well, but at the moment these two seem the most suspicious. Hopefully i'll be able to get back and read/contribute more in the morning, as i'll be at work when the deadline hits and won't be home for three or four hours after that. Basically his case against me is that I switched from Mord to Golbat when no one else did so, and because I talked about multi-day lynching patterns. I'm going to address the multi-day lynching complaint in a separate post, but calling for suspicion just because someone made that switch from a target to another target alone seems like a call for people to bandwagon, which is generally not optimal town play. Indeed, this is where Golbat seems to show his true colors: look at the below part-- I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons This is really wierd. Basically Golbat is saying he'll vote for someone if the rest of the town bandwagons that person. In a situation where the mafia can and will bandwagon a day 1 lynch, such a position is stupid at best and dangerous/scummy at worst. Why would Golbat even leave himself that out, and state it publicly? This circles back to my point about "loud scum" being a difficult strategy to play, because inevitably a player will make a scumslip like the sentence above if they keep playing loudly. In that regard I think Mordanis made the right strategic choice way back in the beginning (even if on a tactical level his reasoning was completely off-kilter and wasted the town's time.) I'd like to close my case against Golbat with the following quote from Golbat: Just because you aren't making cases doesn't mean you still can't contribute. You could read over someone's filter and point out inconsistencies, or share a read you have on someone, or do ANYTHING. Not having a complete case to share yet isn't an excuse to not contribute at all. If nobody does any talking, how are we going to get anything done? That's exactly true--Golbat hasn't pointed out a single inconsistency or read as a justification for any of his lynches (either aRyujin, me, or Mordanis--remember that Golbat simply said "what are we waiting for let's just lynch Mordanis already"), yet he seems to acknowledge that this is the right way to play town. Something's not right here. ##Unvote Mordanis ##FoS Golbat I will likely vote Golbat, barring something huge coming up, before the 17:00 EDT deadline. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 28 2012 21:30 Promethelax wrote: ah, no. You're wrong there. We're getting close to deadline for me (because I'll be asleep for a while) and no one has shown me anything that makes me think anyone is scummier than you or that you are town and therefore less scummy than someone else. I didn't place my vote early because I don't like to vote really early. I Placed my vote when the thread had time to do its thing and make other cases or defenses, I like to be informed before I make my decisions. I would have voted for you even without your most recent post. I just thought I would mention it since I had a chase against you and more post was, once again, scummy. tl;dr I was going to vote you unless 1) you had posted a convincing defense of yourself or 2)someone had made a case that made me think someone was scummier than you. Neither of those things happened while I was at work. I voted for you. Ah, ok. I just found it a little wierd that you wouldn't mention at all the huge debate surrounding golbat or mordanis, instead only talking about aRyujin's haikus and my one-liner post. I'm going to write a defense post now--hope it addresses your concerns (and the concerns of anyone else who shares your line of thinking.) | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What a surprise/upset! I will catch up now with the thread. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
Your explanation for voting and then unvoting Mordanis is just weird. I don't understand how you can assume that he is godfather just because he was actively pursuing a poor case. Furthermore why should early voting be scummy? It is important to use your vote to pressure others and sometimes casting a vote early into a day is the only weapon you have. So just to be sure I understood you correctly, your best scum read when you unvoted was still Mordanis, you only feared to appear scum because of this early vote and therefore unvoted? On July 28 2012 06:36 Golbat wrote: Basically, at the time I was thinking about why he would be so vocal about his case on Keir, and why he would pursue it for so long despite the fact he knew it was an awful case. It wasn't adding up, so I started thinking, "maybe he's scum, but he probably isn't scum, seeing as he thrust himself so far into the spotlight". But after having some time to think about his play, I had the idea that he may be the godfather. I mean, think about it. It's a pretty smart play if he is, he can make all sorts of accusations, and then play like he was just trying to "stimulate discussion". He'll come back clean on a cop check, so he could also use that to further cement himself as a townie, while getting the town to lynch each other all day every day. My own flip floppiness can be attributed to realizing that brazenly voting so early is a bad idea. When I pushed Mord, he pushed back, and I thought to myself, "oh shit, I should probably back down, voting this early does seem kinda scummy". I didn't really think that doing what I thought was the most pro-town thing would cause myself to be brought under such suspicion, because I thought I made it abundantly clear that I was still suspicious, but just not as concrete about it. I wanted to see how the rest of the people were thinking before I actually casted my vote. I could easily still vote for Mord, but he isn't the only suspicious one here. I am curious because in your next post you state: On July 28 2012 07:39 Golbat wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just reading through your filter so far, I feel like you are saying "Oh shit, I made a mistake. Now how can I fix it?" The problem wasn't voting Mordanis early. You voted him without giving a solid reason why, then as soon as someone called you out on it, you backed off with "Sorry, I'm an over-zealous noob." Being wrong doesn't make you scum, but not having conviction and flip-flopping that fast is certainly suspicious. So now you vote aRyujin. He already gave up the haiku style posting which seems to be your only issue with him. Any other reason why he should be lynched in your opinion? And why is Mord missing in your scum reads? On July 28 2012 13:46 Golbat wrote: I'll probably be able to read the thread before I have to go to work tomorrow morning, but in case I don't get that chance, ##Vote aRyujin This is why I am voting for him: His haiku style makes it easy for him to fill up his posts with a shit load of waffle and some nearly baseless accusations and almost get away with it. I hope in between now and deadline the eye of suspicion takes a long, hard look at him, because his confusing waffle is nothing short of a full-on impediment to real discussion. I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons : His direct swap from "I agree with golbat, let's lynch Mord" after Mord drew such attention to himself to "Let's lynch Golbat and then Mord, because one of them HAS to be scum" after people started questioning me is something that I don't think anybody else agreed with. The way he seemed so concrete about who we should lynch for multiple days is really suspicious. We should be picking lynches on a day by day basis as more discussion takes place, not queue up our votes for several days straight. Right now these two seem to me to be the most scummy. Of course, if someone else decides to act scummy as all get out, i'd be happy to vote for them as well, but at the moment these two seem the most suspicious. @goodkarma: On July 28 2012 08:08 goodkarma wrote: I still would like to assert my opinion that removing lurkers from the game on day one is the most valuable play for town. Obviously, lurkers are hard to read. Mafia can easily hide as lurkers without any worry of slipping up. Meanwhile, day one, the most vocal people are sure to say some things that don't resonate quite right with the town. It is easy to start a lynch bandwagon on these people, while the lurkers sit back and provide no further information about themselves or their agendas. Lynch the vocal individuals day one, and you'll know just as little about the lurkers come day two. What? Yes, having lurkers is incredibly painful for town. Especially at MYLO or LYLO having lurkers just cripples town's ability to vote properly. But why would you even consider lynching a lurker when there are suspicious players? It's not always what they say that makes them scum but the intent behind it. And to be honest your post only deflects from the cases already made. On July 28 2012 08:08 goodkarma wrote: Redirection and "blending in with trending town arguements" are scum plays. Exactly. So why are you talking about lynching a lurker and totally ignoring existing cases? Scum? On July 28 2012 10:17 goodkarma wrote: First, @Keirathi, to address a few of your points: Yes, not all lurkers are mafia. And not all mafia are lurkers. Obviously it's great if a target flips red. However, even if a target flips green, you can still be in a better position if that townie was not providing constructive criticism and clarity in his posts. Above all else, the town needs to have clarity and focus to win. Removing lurkers early helps with this goal. By instituting a lynch the lurker policy day one, lurking townies will hopefully realize lurking is bad town play and shape up. Sadly lurking isn't necessarily bad mafia play, and this helps to bring any lurking mafia into the spotlight. Can mafia be active posters playing on the townies' fears? Of coarse they can, but if they are active posters they can and will slip up. They can be found. You let them lurk and you will have trouble winning. But here's the biggest reason I see to play lynch the lurker on day 1 (and I know some may disagree here): you cannot possibly have a good read on anyone before there's been a flip. A scum can sit in the background and lol at town. Scum can speak up in the first hour of day one as to why he thinks there's a premium lynch target. You just simply can't predict how they will play. They can have one scummy post and be town. It's the trend over time, including their voting histories, and the people they've attacked and defended, that will spell out their true intentions. However, by establishing a policy against lurking, you immediately set up a constructive town atmosphere even if you lynch town day one. I would be happy to see an informative post on this topic if you have read a different viewpoint. However, from the guides I've read on this subject clarity is key, and lurkers are definitely a good lynch target. I would be happy to provide links for you if you need, though the TL mafia central library should have all the guides I've looked at. So you are saying that there is no way to have an accurate read on players before any flip. I would say it is hard but not impossible. Pressuring people for the content of their posts and not the quality of their posts allows for a good read. If instead we just ask people to be more active and talk about safe topics such as policy lynches than nothing is accomplished through this! Which by the way is exactly what you achieved with your post ... On July 28 2012 11:56 goodkarma wrote: @DarthPunk Yes. I've talked a lot about lurkers. And tbh I consider that a very important contribution. It is day one and no one can truely have a good read on who is scum without any flips. We can go with our pitchforks at those we consider "scummy," and we should. But the absolute very first thing that needs to happen is that we establish solid town policy that ensures there's clarity in what is posted and everyone is participating. This is what I'm getting at with lynch the lurker. I apologize that I'm not bandwaggoning on some guy who has a couple scummy-looking posts right now, as many of our forum friends seem content to do, but I strongly feel that if we establish an atmosphere where we encourage participation that it will be that much easier to weed out scum. I will be more than happy to talk about scummy reads when there's more information to go off of, but that information just isn't there on day one. The scummiest looking people right now are the lurkers. And it's not like this is some crazy half-baked idea. I encourage you, like I encouraged Keirathi, to read some basic town guides on TL. Lurkers are a good target, especially when you don't have any good leads to go off of. I've discussed this point to death, and now this discussion is being reduced to rehashing what I've already said. Please thoroughly read my post before telling me my posting is only about lurkers, because what I propose is also about establishing the foundation for a winning town by encouraging participation and clarity. I feel I've talked this point to death, and I sincerely hope the town gets behind it. My biggest fear is that we will cherry-pick the most outspoken guy we can find, a couple of his posts read scummy, and he flips town. We have ~7 hours till deadline and yet the only thing you have talked about over and over again is your policy lynch. You may vote for whomever's death is most beneficial for town in your opinion but before that I want to hear you comment on the existent cases. And just to remind everyone making strong and logical cases is one of the more difficult things for scum. Therefore the easiest thing for scum is to just start a case on a lurker because let's admit it, everyone has to hate lurkers! ##FoS goodkarma And don't get me wrong. I am hundred percent behind getting rid of lurkers. So if we have vigs, please do your job! | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On July 28 2012 10:17 goodkarma wrote: @ and regarding aRyuujin: Here's the issues I currently have that make me think you're a good lynch day one. You have not really added any meaningful discussion presently for town. Your viewpoints have been rehashings of towns'. Your first critical post is what I'm looking for. I hate to reiterate this point but neither you nor Keirathi have really addressed it. Until I see that first critical post, you are by my definition a lurker. The other point is that there's one or two people that have come to your defense. You talk about scum buddies, which is most interesting to me. Because I would think scum buddies would be involved in the defense of their friend, especially on day one when it's nearly impossible to present a truely rock-solid case against anyone. Lynching you would give valuable information about those who choose to stand behind you. This is very valuable information, even if you flip town. If we were to lynch a Mord or golbat or shady right now and they flip town, all we would know is that no one in town really liked them much. If we were to lynch Mordanis, Golbat or Shady we would have a lot of information. As far as I remember all three were accused and defended by several players. All three of them have made cases against other players. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On July 28 2012 14:28 Obvious.660 wrote: Shady Sands' is 100% convinced Mordanis is scum. And is willing to waiting 2 days to lynch him. This is bad play. If we identify scum, we kill them. No crazy circular logic of if x person dies then we have more information y person. Just no. Scum can scheme, they are aware of eachother. Town cannot, except in the case of Masons. Shady Sands is my current #1 scum read. #FOS: Shady Sands While I have my suspicions about Shady I got the the feeling that Mordanis wasn't his strongest scum read especially as he soon after targeted Golbat. Your point is valid but I think it's quite common if you encounter active controversial players on day 1 to let them be and see how things go. Your filter is still pretty empty though, no other contribution than this rather sloppy case on Shady. I am still waiting for you to comment on Golbat! | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On July 28 2012 23:30 Keirathi wrote: No one has any comments on my case against Golbat? Valid points but I fear that we won't get an answer from Golbat before deadline. In general, activity in this game is aweful. Zorkmid and MrMedic have disappeared as well. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 28 2012 14:28 Obvious.660 wrote: Shady Sands' is 100% convinced Mordanis is scum. And is willing to waiting 2 days to lynch him. This is bad play. If we identify scum, we kill them. No crazy circular logic of if x person dies then we have more information y person. Just no. Scum can scheme, they are aware of eachother. Town cannot, except in the case of Masons. Shady Sands is my current #1 scum read. #FOS: Shady Sands Obvious, by the time I switched my vote off Mordanis to doing a 2 day wait on his lynch, I was no longer 100% convinced he was scum. I wrote that since he was playing "loud" (actively posting relatively strong analysis), if he was scum, he would quickly out himself in two or three days anyhow, so there was no need to rush a lynch. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 29 2012 00:14 Ange777 wrote: Valid points but I fear that we won't get an answer from Golbat before deadline. In general, activity in this game is aweful. Zorkmid and MrMedic have disappeared as well. No worries, I think a lynch on Golbat, like you said, will tell us a lot about the remaining players here, even if he is silent. | ||
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