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On December 03 2011 12:59 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play. Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs... Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash. Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run. On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ). You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is. Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units. It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units. Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
no one good does a 6 pool on a regular basis neither
we barely barely ever saw mech in TvZ in the GSL for the longest time until rainbow/yoda/MVP started doing it neither
ur argument is invalid
also im offended that you think pros are so bad that theyd on't know that vikings beat phoenixes
also flame posts do not conform to the strategy forum guidelines neither :<
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Yoshi, I found a couple more replays while trolling around gamereplays.org (they're not mine). Plat level, but variation on your build. His general build looks to be roughly barracks, gas, bunker, factory, 2nd gas, armory, defensive thor @ front door, starport, EBay, 2nd starport, PF at natural. Late game, he made cloaked ghosts to protect the PF expansions from HT's in the first replay.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=243740
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=243716
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On December 03 2011 13:56 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 12:59 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 07:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play. Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs... Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash. Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run. On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ). You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is. Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units. It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units. Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS. Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with. That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play. PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times.
Toss figured out a style that kills bioballs now, and terrans are shaking there heads and what not....
why don't terrans do a 1/1/1 into 2/2/2 and so on............... SOO MANY UNIT COMBINATIONS AND STRATEGIES POSSIBLE ITS AMAZING if terrans can just learn to use bio/mech/sky all at once............ the race with all the variation and abilites and possible options........... and most unit combinations working.................. has issues creating new strategies? (lolwut) This isn't negative I am just really shocked,
thats like saying a GDI player doesn't use orcas >_> or a NOD player doesn't use attack bikes
and BTW yoshi I salute soo much for this guide
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On December 03 2011 05:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 04:48 Ironsights wrote:http://drop.sc/67411That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap. Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again! Less bloggy and more relevant: It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me. Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly. I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox? The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it. Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query. It works at Korean GM (the composition and general concepts, not necessarily this build order), so yes it does work. Whether or not it's "efficient" to practice TvP with this style is up to debate (is it harder or easier than MMM VG?) But in the end, it's all subjective, and there's always a bonus to playing styles and using strategies that are less common. It'll ultimately depend upon you. So if what you are asking is, "is there a counter or something that just makes this not work if the opponent knows how to deal with it?" Nope! 
Thanks for the reply.
Basically what I was asking was if this was a "flavor of the month" type gimmick or if it would actually prove a valuable build to know/understand.
If its working in Korea, its probably viable
The more I play this build the more I am enjoying it. I truly think you have hit onto something beautiful here, but then again I really enjoy Sky Terran, so...I might be biased.
On a side note...planetary fortress expanding is pretty great. Aggressive expanding with those to make it viable is helping not just against protoss but against zerg too...Oh the ideas you have gotten started in my sad, sad little mind!
Thanks again for this guide. You have breathed new hope into my continued terran existense.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
http://drop.sc/68143
FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/301722171
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On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote:Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units. Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own. http://drop.sc/68143FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/301722171
Thanks for sharing, yay even a VOD :D (ugh so lazy to have to download replay move it to folder and then load it up and all that xD)
Will check it out
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On December 04 2011 12:38 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 13:56 RoboBob wrote:On December 03 2011 12:59 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 07:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play. Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs... Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash. Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run. On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ). You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is. Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units. It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units. Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS. Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with. That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play. PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times. Toss figured out a style that kills bioballs now, and terrans are shaking there heads and what not.... why don't terrans do a 1/1/1 into 2/2/2 and so on............... SOO MANY UNIT COMBINATIONS AND STRATEGIES POSSIBLE ITS AMAZING if terrans can just learn to use bio/mech/sky all at once............ the race with all the variation and abilites and possible options........... and most unit combinations working.................. has issues creating new strategies? (lolwut) This isn't negative I am just really shocked, thats like saying a GDI player doesn't use orcas >_> or a NOD player doesn't use attack bikes and BTW yoshi I salute soo much for this guide
EG.Puma (the master of the modern 1/1/1, Polt was arguably its creator) has slowly been moving away from 1/1/1 towards 2/2/2 lately so it certainly is possible. The problem is that you really need to end the game before 3 bases because upgrades will just flat out kill you. Lategame standard TvP is already really scary, and having your army spread out over 3 upgrades paths is even more scary.
Honestly I'm not a fan of mixing in bio when going sky. The best thing about sky is that it makes both Forcefields and Zealots irrelevent. Mixing in bio just opens up those old wounds. If I need to mix in one non-sky unit into my build, then its Hellions. They really help prevent to Zealot/Immo hit squads from sniping expos and retreating into newly warped Stalkers.
The only bio unit I've had success mixing in is Reapers vs pure Cannon/Stargate. 8+ Reaper squads can be really scary vs a gazillion cannons with just one or two Medivacs worth of backup. They can do okay vs 1 round of warpins as long as the P doesn't have any upgrades on his ground either. I'm pretty sure this is the only playstyle I've tried where its actually equally easy to get gas and minerals. So it doesn't matter how much gas Reapers cost, only that they take a long time to build and will be useless vs ground armies.
In theory I've always thought Ghost would be good because both Stargate and Stalkers are so shield heavy. But without a bio ball to hide among, mine get picked off too easy. And Ghost cloak always seems useless vs the tons of Obs they'll be pumping out. Unlike Banshees, Ghosts are poor defensive units because the P can always retreat to regen shields. We don't have concussive to force engages like we do with MMM.
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On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote:Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units. Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own. http://drop.sc/68143FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/301722171
I loved the bm in that game. Your opening was interesting and appeared super safe, and it might be an appropriate alternative for a map like XNC where I tend to have no luck at all. I guess what you give up is the harrassment of the fast cloaked banshee, which can sometimes give auto-wins or do substantial economic damage with the two-pronged harrass. However, I wouldn't call that out as a mistake. Your surprise 4x starport, protected from scouting by a (awesome touch) ring of turrets, had a great shock and awe element. The marines and tanks proved very valuable against the stalker heavy army too.
I really think there is a lot of value in that game for an analytical approach to how different openings can intersect into the midgame goal of mass air. I'm very interested to start experimenting. If an opening lends itself to a 50/50 mixup that requires completely different responses, that would become very frustrating for Protoss.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
The tank/marine opening on XNC (which stops tank production after 5 tanks) is completely safe from any protoss all-in. In return, it makes it very difficult to pressure the protoss due to the drawback of tanks. I model my TvP big air play off of ZvP big air play.
In ZvP big air play, the zerg player masses mutas and spines. Spines are cost-effective defenders but can't assert map control, and mutas are strong map control but can't defend in small numbers. Using the map control from mutas, he takes many expansions and eventually overwhelms with a broodlord switch.
In my TvP big air play, I mass bunkers and and make a moderate number of tanks and lean on the unbelievable defensive abilities of the tank. I mass banshees and assert map control, letting me freely take a third and a fourth base without serious pressure from the protoss, letting me safely make a BC switch.
That game was an example of a protoss who effectively disrupted my plans. He got phoenixes out and managed to prevent me from taking a strong macro lead, eventually shutting down my third and sniping my fourth despite taking heavy economic damage himself. The BC transition was desperate but it worked.
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On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote:Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units. Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own. http://drop.sc/68143FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/301722171
I liked the opening and transitioning to thor/bc against primarily phoenix AA was smart. However I didn't like your midgame at all. You threw away tons of banshees, both to blink stalkers and to phoenix because you had 0 protection for them once the marines got cleaned up by zealots and colossus. I checked one of his phoenix, and it had 8 kills on it. Also you lost both your 3rd and 4th to 3 zealots and an immortal. If you are going to turtle that hard, you need PF. One of the great advantages of sky terran is that you don't need minerals that much and can afford to mass expand and use PFs everywhere. Using marines as your AA negates this advantage, makes you vulnerable against his power units (zealots, colossus, sentry), and limits your mobility since you can't leave the marines or else he gets 8 kill phoenixes.
He was able to disrupt your build so much because you had 0 diversity in your air army. A raven or two for PDD, and 2-3 vikings to protect your banshees and snipe observers would have probably won you the game in your first big push that destroyed his gold. He had at most 2 phoenix at once for the entire game, 6-8 in the midgame as he was destroying your economy (because of no PFs) would have annihilated your air control. You weren't really ahead in economy because your opening is so passive, you lost your whole airforce, and all your map presence in your push, allowing him to get back into the game. The all-in at the end worked because he had almost no stalkers, which was a good read on your part. I think he should have expected something like that though after crippling you so bad.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 06 2011 07:55 DrivenBatty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote:Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units. Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own. http://drop.sc/68143FP VoD: http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/301722171 I liked the opening and transitioning to thor/bc against primarily phoenix AA was smart. However I didn't like your midgame at all. You threw away tons of banshees, both to blink stalkers and to phoenix because you had 0 protection for them once the marines got cleaned up by zealots and colossus. I checked one of his phoenix, and it had 8 kills on it. Also you lost both your 3rd and 4th to 3 zealots and an immortal. If you are going to turtle that hard, you need PF. One of the great advantages of sky terran is that you don't need minerals that much and can afford to mass expand and use PFs everywhere. Using marines as your AA negates this advantage, makes you vulnerable against his power units (zealots, colossus, sentry), and limits your mobility since you can't leave the marines or else he gets 8 kill phoenixes. He was able to disrupt your build so much because you had 0 diversity in your air army. A raven or two for PDD, and 2-3 vikings to protect your banshees and snipe observers would have probably won you the game in your first big push that destroyed his gold. He had at most 2 phoenix at once for the entire game, 6-8 in the midgame as he was destroying your economy (because of no PFs) would have annihilated your air control. You weren't really ahead in economy because your opening is so passive, you lost your whole airforce, and all your map presence in your push, allowing him to get back into the game. The all-in at the end worked because he had almost no stalkers, which was a good read on your part. I think he should have expected something like that though after crippling you so bad.
Oh yes, I definitely should have used PFs for my third and fourth. Dunno why I made them OCs -.- I was banking mins also.
Nobody expects the BC transition though. I really enjoyed how he made like 1 VR which pitifully choked on itself in the fight at his nat.
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Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient?
I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
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On December 06 2011 09:06 Kukaracha wrote:
Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient?
I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
Going 200/200 Banshees is perfectly fine as long as you get double armory upgrades, and of course sniping his forges will make you insanely strong.
Getting a lot of Ravens is just another style to play, though of course you will have to be careful against HTs. I'd say don't prioritize one over the other, meaning go Banshees unless your macro falters a bit and you have a lot of gas to burn some reason and not many minerals.
A meatier army like Banshees with sniping forges can allow you to just win a straight up fight. With Ravens however, you need support, obviously, and have to be cautious of HTs by playing more of a harass style threatening base race (unless you bring ghosts in medivacs).
Spellcasters get insanely strong lategame, that's mainly why you should consider getting heavy Ravens at some point. If you can keep most of them alive and let them get energy, you will be very strong if you force a base race).
I hope this helps =O
Though of course there is still much to learn, but this is how I feel so far.
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This is kinda iffy against templar tech in general, but really really bad against stalker templar with some archons. It may be important to note that against some compositions, you should use ghosts as well. Really really important. This style is kind of broken without at least some EMPs. Feedback and storms punish all air so brutally.
EDIT: I am mixing this style in with a lot of success tho. Diamond here.
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On November 09 2011 13:48 Empyrean wrote:
Moved to SC2 Strategy.
Never thought I'd say that one.
LoL
indeed
i'd have to say that i foresee this build way back when Observest costs were doubled then what it is today, and i insist that protoss lacks of detection...or better....the protoss detection mechanics are totaly broken...
to make an observer u have to sacrifice robo build time....that sucks and robo is a key structure.. !
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units.
if you do that, might want to um.... emp that medivac? 
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On December 06 2011 11:40 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 13:48 Empyrean wrote:
Moved to SC2 Strategy.
Never thought I'd say that one. LoL indeed i'd have to say that i foresee this build way back when Observest costs were doubled then what it is today, and i insist that protoss lacks of detection...or better....the protoss detection mechanics are totaly broken... to make an observer u have to sacrifice robo build time....that sucks and robo is a key structure.. !
Yeah lol can you imagine back then observer cost like 2 stalkers in gas? holy shit xD
On December 06 2011 15:57 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units. if you do that, might want to um.... emp that medivac?
heheh yeah yeah xD though usually the meds probably shouldnt have that much energy anyways
On December 06 2011 10:58 dUTtrOACh wrote:
This is kinda iffy against templar tech in general, but really really bad against stalker templar with some archons. It may be important to note that against some compositions, you should use ghosts as well. Really really important. This style is kind of broken without at least some EMPs. Feedback and storms punish all air so brutally.
EDIT: I am mixing this style in with a lot of success tho. Diamond here.
Not really, I would only say that Stalker/HT with possible some phoenixes is the right way to deal with this style, not a counter. They do this in most of the replays but it is no problem. Even against significantly better opponents (the "Recommended" replays) that composition really wasn't a crippling problem.
Like I said you can just hover over his army to stop him from storming. Though of course you should avoid engagements as much as possible. But if you're going to engage then might as well hover over him to stay safe, better than sitting at the edge of his army where you can get stormed just so that you can run away easier (he'll catch you anyways unless you fly over a cliff or such).
If you have good splitting and focus on micro instead of macro (this strat doesn't produce much, banshees and ravens take 60 seconds to build) then you will be fine. You don't need to sacrifice micro for macro like if you were to play MMM VG and have to keep making a shit ton of new MM constantly.
If you have any replays of things you're having trouble with though, feel free to share
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people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
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On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
I don't recommend it, it is quite against the point of the build, though it might help while you still learn the style and want a more reliable way to start going air, since u won't get your expansions as fast then, meaning you won't get the gas you need. Cus obviously you can't have your marines fly with the rest of the army so it takes away the advantage of being able to focus all ur army in 1 point or camp his bases, etc.
im looking at some ways to get more marines then expand then go air, like a 1 rax expand or 1 reactor rax 111 or something etc.
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EPT
