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ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 15:48 GMT
#181
Gut reaction. What are your thoughts on BMB's alignment?
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 15:49 GMT
#182
That post would make more sense if it had ended up below Marv's post on the previous page. Serves me right for not specifying who that comment was aimed at.

(it's you, Marv.)
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36160 Posts
August 31 2012 15:53 GMT
#183
On September 01 2012 00:49 ghost_403 wrote:
That post would make more sense if it had ended up below Marv's post on the previous page. Serves me right for not specifying who that comment was aimed at.

(it's you, Marv.)


it's always me, sweetie

On the scummy side of null. Actually I agree with you that we need to hear more from him about it.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 15:55 GMT
#184
The only person that hasn't posted so far is Node from what I gather - good first half of the day so far!

Regarding BMB's Case - if he's indeed a veteran player on a smurf, shouldn't his bad case be setting off some alarm bells? He basically comes in, argues on semantics about policy lurker lynching, then makes a really bad case. Ghost mentioned the "WIFOM" argument that "he wouldn't make a case that bad as mafia", but from what I gather, he wouldn't make a case this bad as town either, no? As it stands, his behavior is far more anti-town than pro-town, and my vote will stay as is.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 15:56 GMT
#185
On September 01 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:
Where are node and mementoss?

Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.


Speaking of skulking through an active discussion...
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
August 31 2012 16:04 GMT
#186
On September 01 2012 00:56 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:
Where are node and mementoss?

Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.


Speaking of skulking through an active discussion...

I have an excuse, being at work and all.
Что?
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:13 GMT
#187
Still have suspicions on me Shady? What do you think about Black Mamba's case and my analysis of it?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
August 31 2012 16:17 GMT
#188
Well, I still find Hapahauli's posts about Hopeless suspicious. I agree that blackmamba's case on him was bad, but don't forget that the original reason for suspicion on him was that interaction. Anyone care to comment on that side of things? Like, am I just up a tree here or was he being kinda sketch?

I do think that "he made a bad case" is not sufficient reason to go after blackmamba. I mean, many recent games show that veterans can and do make bad cases on occasion, even when they're town. It's a data point, but not the strongest one.

But here's another question we should spend some time discussing before it gets too late. Assuming not enough players agree on lynching either hapahauli or blackmamba, what's better - no lynch or policy lynch on a lurker? The odds of hitting scum with a policy lynch are small unless it's Palmar's magic random lynch - so I see the main benefit of a policy lynch as forcing the survivors to shape up (and maybe some impact on future games, but imo we should be thinking about winning this one). Is that worth probably killing a townie?
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
August 31 2012 16:21 GMT
#189
I'm not too fond of the way ghost has been defending mamba at every chance he gets. It's fine to defend a player if you don't think they're town but leave it at that. Cause when he comes back to the thread he can just mirror the things that ghost said to defend him, or otherwise there is at least a lot less pressure on him to give an adquete response about his case and such. That being said, most of ghosts talk so far has been on this, so I would like to ask him if he had to make a vote now, who would it be and why?

My opinion on this BMB fiasco is that he seems a bit scummy to me. His posts just rub me the wrong way and his case was bad. I'm not going to go much farther into this as it's already been fleshed out by many but I'll be interested in seeing a response from him. The way he talks about his personal scum preferences is odd, and the question to the hosts could just be a scam to make himself look town, when he actually knew the answer because he received this fake role. I think the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective because if you look through his early filter he realized he was talking a lot, but it was purely filler, and was scared of getting called out on it soon, so he decided to make a case up so no one would call him out for "contributing without actually saying much".

I agree that Risen's play is not his normal town play, of guns blazing and doing crazy shit to get reactions out.

If we are going to set the tone here that lurking is unacceptable as town we might as well start day one, and try to set ourselves up for a winning situation later in the game. Also based on his less than stellar game history... So for now..

##Vote: Mr.Zentor

Also I think that people should be giving their gut thoughts and put in a vote at the start of each day, so we can discuss our way through the best person for the lynch throughout the day. People don't seem to realize how short a 24 hour cycle is, so getting a vote in ASAP is important for discussion and consolidation on voting out a scum. Obviously this is impossible to do on day 1, but I think it should be done for further days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
August 31 2012 16:24 GMT
#190
On September 01 2012 01:17 strongandbig wrote:
Well, I still find Hapahauli's posts about Hopeless suspicious. I agree that blackmamba's case on him was bad, but don't forget that the original reason for suspicion on him was that interaction. Anyone care to comment on that side of things? Like, am I just up a tree here or was he being kinda sketch?

I do think that "he made a bad case" is not sufficient reason to go after blackmamba. I mean, many recent games show that veterans can and do make bad cases on occasion, even when they're town. It's a data point, but not the strongest one.

But here's another question we should spend some time discussing before it gets too late. Assuming not enough players agree on lynching either hapahauli or blackmamba, what's better - no lynch or policy lynch on a lurker? The odds of hitting scum with a policy lynch are small unless it's Palmar's magic random lynch - so I see the main benefit of a policy lynch as forcing the survivors to shape up (and maybe some impact on future games, but imo we should be thinking about winning this one). Is that worth probably killing a townie?


I think no lynch will just leave us in the same spot tomorrow discussing the same things, worst comes to worse you get rid of someone that is always going to be in the back of your mind later in the game.

Imagine being in this situation:

kenpachi, bill murray, mr.zentor, grush, and yourself.

Based on their normal play style its going to be pretty damn hard to analyse their play and actually getting the scum would be pretty lucky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:25 GMT
#191
Well since no one else is here, may as well respond to Strongnbig's suspicions:

Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 11:46 Hapahauli wrote:
On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game.


I disagree. No one here is a newbie, and every competent town player should know that lurking is bad in a 24 hour setup. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is not putting in the effort on their own after committing to such an intense setup, they are anti-town and deserve significant suspicion.

I don't want to have to let anyone know. If someone lurks, my "reminder" will be a D1 lynch hammer, and they'll have to claw their way out to survive.


I really don't like this post - I don't think it's a pro-town attitude. Policy lynches aren't "traps" to be sprung, you won't catch scum with a trap you announce beforehand. Policy lynches exist to promote good town behavior, and if you can get that behavior literally any other way, then that's better than the policy lynch.


You're mis-interpreting my intent. I'm just saying that we shouldn't have to remind people about their lurkiness. If a player is not taking it upon themselves to establish themeslves as town and make some reads in a game that necessitates activity, they deserve to be lynched. What part of this suggests a "trap?"

Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 11:58 Hapahauli wrote:
On August 31 2012 11:40 Hopeless1der wrote:
Zeph is likely to take care of any actual lurking, but Hapa is right. If I'm too silent for too long, I expect to hear about it, preferably before I'm policy lynched for it. I'll apply the same principle to everyone else in the game.


Actually waaaaait a minute here. Are you suggesting that you'll be lurky or something? Surely you shouldn't be worried about "reminders" or whatnot if you're indeed pro-town and intend to post?

##Vote Hopeless1der


I find this to be completely insufficient reasoning to justify a vote. It's aggressive for no reason. My impression here is that Hapahauli is voting Hopeless because he doesn't think Hopeless is on board enough with his anti-lurker policy, rather than because he's scum. Sure, lurking can be scummy, but I see no indication why this post would make Hapahauli think Hopeless is scum.


Aggressive for no reason? A guy made a comment (that I interpret as possibly scummy) that I want an answer to. Therefore I voted. What's the problem here?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
August 31 2012 16:25 GMT
#192
On September 01 2012 01:17 strongandbig wrote:
Well, I still find Hapahauli's posts about Hopeless suspicious. I agree that blackmamba's case on him was bad, but don't forget that the original reason for suspicion on him was that interaction. Anyone care to comment on that side of things? Like, am I just up a tree here or was he being kinda sketch?


I dont think it's all that suspicious. His later clarification explains it fine for me and its not something he's lingered overly on.


On August 31 2012 12:48 Hapahauli wrote:
Tbh Hopeless, I really don't understand that line from you (that i referenced in my vote post). It's like you're suggesting that you'll need to be reminded and that you won't be attentive to your own lurking. Care to clarify?

Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
August 31 2012 16:26 GMT
#193
Also hopefully palmar and node decide to start investing some time into the game soon. Lynch deadline in just 10 hours?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:31 GMT
#194
@ Momentoss
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&currentpage=10#189

If I'm following you correctly...
1) You don't like Ghost's defense of BMB
2) You think BMB is slighly scummy
3) You think Risen is not behaving like his normal town persona

Then... you vote Mkfuba for lurking? What?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:31 GMT
#195
Err sorry MrZentor, no idea why I confused that.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
mkfuba07
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1151 Posts
August 31 2012 16:38 GMT
#196
I'm awake and caught up, and should be able to stick around the computer for the rest of the day :D

I don't feel like BMB's case on Hapa is particularly compelling, but given the point in the game that it was written, that's to be expected. I do find it strange that he mentioned Hapa's discussion of lurker policy, again given the point in the game, since that's all there is to talk about. What should Hapa have been discussing instead?

@s&b
I thought Hapa's vote on Hopeless was part of the beginning-of-game banter, so I dismissed it. I actually felt the same way as Hopeless, so Hapa's vote seemed more comical than scummy. I found the entire post to be a null tell.

And I will try to avoid a no-lynch at all cost. I don't like starting D2 without learning anything at the end of D1. I'll find anyone pushing a no-lynch suspicious. Even with a mislynch on a lurker (no, I'm not hoping for a mislynch), someone has to push for it, and that reveals peoples' motivations.

@Hapa
You probably slipped that up because I've been so lurky. I'm awake now though :D
Never trust a skinny innkeeper
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
August 31 2012 16:38 GMT
#197
On September 01 2012 01:31 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Momentoss
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&currentpage=10#189

If I'm following you correctly...
1) You don't like Ghost's defense of BMB
2) You think BMB is slighly scummy
3) You think Risen is not behaving like his normal town persona

Then... you vote Mr.Zentor for lurking? What?


Yeah that's correct. I didn't say I found ghost to be scummy because of it, I just feel you can get a more "real" reaction out of someone under more pressure defending themselves without help from another player, especially in a situation so far away from lynch.

BMB I'm awaiting a response from.

Risen hasn't posted enough to make a definite opinion on him.

Didn't you say you wanted to enforce policy lynches on people that were lurking the town? Or did you just say that because you thought that would be a typical town opener to the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
August 31 2012 16:40 GMT
#198
On September 01 2012 01:21 Mementoss wrote:
I'm not too fond of the way ghost has been defending mamba at every chance he gets. It's fine to defend a player if you don't think they're town but leave it at that. Cause when he comes back to the thread he can just mirror the things that ghost said to defend him, or otherwise there is at least a lot less pressure on him to give an adquete response about his case and such. That being said, most of ghosts talk so far has been on this, so I would like to ask him if he had to make a vote now, who would it be and why?

My opinion on this BMB fiasco is that he seems a bit scummy to me. His posts just rub me the wrong way and his case was bad. I'm not going to go much farther into this as it's already been fleshed out by many but I'll be interested in seeing a response from him. The way he talks about his personal scum preferences is odd, and the question to the hosts could just be a scam to make himself look town, when he actually knew the answer because he received this fake role. I think the case was bad and forced from a scum perspective because if you look through his early filter he realized he was talking a lot, but it was purely filler, and was scared of getting called out on it soon, so he decided to make a case up so no one would call him out for "contributing without actually saying much".

I agree that Risen's play is not his normal town play, of guns blazing and doing crazy shit to get reactions out.

If we are going to set the tone here that lurking is unacceptable as town we might as well start day one, and try to set ourselves up for a winning situation later in the game. Also based on his less than stellar game history... So for now..

##Vote: Mr.Zentor

Also I think that people should be giving their gut thoughts and put in a vote at the start of each day, so we can discuss our way through the best person for the lynch throughout the day. People don't seem to realize how short a 24 hour cycle is, so getting a vote in ASAP is important for discussion and consolidation on voting out a scum. Obviously this is impossible to do on day 1, but I think it should be done for further days.



This post makes absolutely no sense. Momen can you further explain?
Что?
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:44 GMT
#199
On September 01 2012 01:38 Mementoss wrote:
...
Didn't you say you wanted to enforce policy lynches on people that were lurking the town? Or did you just say that because you thought that would be a typical town opener to the game?


Actually, I do use it as a typical town opener - it creates discussion and keeps people on alert for lurking players. And "policy-lynch" is a bit of a misnomer - I'm suggesting pressure on lurkers more than anything else, hence this post:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&currentpage=5#88

I think my actions right now are within the bounds of my "policy" - BlackMamba (DrHelvetica I think?) skirted in, made a bad case, and hasn't posted in hours. I want to get some answers.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 31 2012 16:47 GMT
#200
On September 01 2012 01:38 Mementoss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2012 01:31 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Momentoss
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&currentpage=10#189

If I'm following you correctly...
1) You don't like Ghost's defense of BMB
2) You think BMB is slighly scummy
3) You think Risen is not behaving like his normal town persona

Then... you vote Mr.Zentor for lurking? What?


Yeah that's correct. I didn't say I found ghost to be scummy because of it, I just feel you can get a more "real" reaction out of someone under more pressure defending themselves without help from another player, especially in a situation so far away from lynch.

BMB I'm awaiting a response from.

Risen hasn't posted enough to make a definite opinion on him.

Didn't you say you wanted to enforce policy lynches on people that were lurking the town? Or did you just say that because you thought that would be a typical town opener to the game?


The problem I'm having is that you're waiting for opinions and waiting for posts when you have legitimate reasons to pressure posters. What does voting MrZentor even do, when you find other people suspicious? You came in, passively fingerpointed a bunch of players, and aren't pressuring them for information.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
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