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Death Note Mini Mafia - Page 9

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
August 31 2012 13:54 GMT
#161
hey s&b, what's up with this guy? He seems to like traps too. Nervous as hell also.

On August 31 2012 12:43 Hopeless1der wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 12:39 HiroPro wrote:
No. I would policy lynch anyone who abstained.

Damnit Hiro, that was the secret ninja policy!
And @ Hapa - Good on you for being outrageous. Completely necessary this early in the game. As for your vote...haha?



strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
August 31 2012 14:06 GMT
#162
two to one he's town.

I've played like two games with him, and he was town in both of them, so he could be some kind of secret scum mastermind and I wouldn't know. But in one of the games I played with him I was really impressed because somehow he managed to just seem "townie" despite barely posting. (In the other game he didn't.)

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that he hasn't posted much, but I don't think that's a tell; and that his posts are pretty reasoned-out, but I think that's a sign of him trying to play to his strengths since he just got mislynched in PTP.

However, Hopeless - I don't really see much in the way of "actual opinions" or "positions" from you in the thread. I think you're probably town, but let me ask you - what do you think of the hapa situation, or Marv's zentor policy lynch?
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 14:22 GMT
#163
On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.

@BMB: You are DrH, right?


Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case?


I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
August 31 2012 14:24 GMT
#164
hey ghost, can you explain your comment on Risen a little more?
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
August 31 2012 14:26 GMT
#165
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.

@BMB: You are DrH, right?


Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case?


I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.


I'm curious, because by your own reasoning

1) DrH made a bad case
2) DrH is a very good player

does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 14:27 GMT
#166
Risen is very aggressive in Mafia when he plays town. He's abrasive and abusive and plays hard. In this game, I haven't seen that quite yet. I'm still trying to decide why that is. It could just be that we're 12 hours into the game, and he hasn't had an opportunity to call anyone stupid yet.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
August 31 2012 14:29 GMT
#167
On August 31 2012 23:27 ghost_403 wrote:
Risen is very aggressive in Mafia when he plays town. He's abrasive and abusive and plays hard. In this game, I haven't seen that quite yet. I'm still trying to decide why that is. It could just be that we're 12 hours into the game, and he hasn't had an opportunity to call anyone stupid yet.


I'm taking the credit because he hydra'd with me in AoK and I told him to shut up constantly :>
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 14:29 GMT
#168
On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.

@BMB: You are DrH, right?


Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case?


I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.


I'm curious, because by your own reasoning

1) DrH made a bad case
2) DrH is a very good player

does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet?


WIFOM mode engage!

Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?

I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.

Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
August 31 2012 14:34 GMT
#169
On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.

@BMB: You are DrH, right?


Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case?


I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.


I'm curious, because by your own reasoning

1) DrH made a bad case
2) DrH is a very good player

does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet?


WIFOM mode engage!

Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?

I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.

Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?


yeah, ok, let's not go down the WIFOM road. Suffice to say, when someone does something bad, "he should know not to do something bad" has always struck me as an inadequate way of explaining it away.

Black's case is certainly scummier than what he was making the case on (hapa's play). Conversely, do you see that case as a town-tell?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 14:38 GMT
#170
On August 31 2012 23:34 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 23:29 ghost_403 wrote:
On August 31 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 23:22 ghost_403 wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:53 marvellosity wrote:
On August 31 2012 22:51 ghost_403 wrote:
Calm down, Hapa. Just because BMB wrote up a subpar case on Day 1 does not mean that he's scum. BMB (aka DoctorHelvetica) is very good at this game. I doubt that anyone can know his alignment quite yet, nevermind based on a single case he's presented on Day 1.

@BMB: You are DrH, right?


Why are you attacking Hapa for pressuring a pile of shit case?


I'm not attacking, I'm telling him to take a step back and evaluate whether he thinks that BMB's case was due to (a) him being scum or (b) him writing up a case 5 hours into the game. The two of those are very different, and I don't see evidence in his analysis of him thinking that question through.


I'm curious, because by your own reasoning

1) DrH made a bad case
2) DrH is a very good player

does it not make more sense that a bad case from someone you think is good is scummier than a bad case from a nublet?


WIFOM mode engage!

Don't you think that someone as good as BMB would, as scum, be more careful to not make a bad case?

I see this as BMB just being aggressive and trying to get the ball moving. I can't imagine him being quite so bold and careless as scum.

Do you think that his case is really a scum-tell?


yeah, ok, let's not go down the WIFOM road. Suffice to say, when someone does something bad, "he should know not to do something bad" has always struck me as an inadequate way of explaining it away.

Black's case is certainly scummier than what he was making the case on (hapa's play). Conversely, do you see that case as a town-tell?


My spreadsheet has BMB marked down as scum due to that case, but I'm not convinced on it enough to vote him yet. BMB is a good player, and lynching him based on a bad case he made this early on Day 1 is terrible play. I'm certainly going to be watching him closely.

What I would really like from him is for him to come back and tell us his thoughts on everyone's reactions to his case. That would tell me a lot more about his alignment than what he's already said in thread.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
August 31 2012 14:46 GMT
#171
And I'm awake. Classes from 9:10-11:10 and then I'll be at my comp the rest of the day
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
August 31 2012 15:07 GMT
#172
Hey Risen, I think kenpachi rule applies to Kobe. Do you agree with me?
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
August 31 2012 15:12 GMT
#173
who's kobe? I guess "black mamba" is a nickname for kobe bryant or something? I thought it was about the kill bill character.
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
August 31 2012 15:14 GMT
#174
ya I mean blackmamba
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
August 31 2012 15:15 GMT
#175
yeah, that went over my head completely.

re: deadline - 3:30am for me also. Sometimes I can stay up, mostly I can't. For example, tonight/tomorrow night I will likely be comatose by then.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
August 31 2012 15:23 GMT
#176
On August 31 2012 23:06 strongandbig wrote:
two to one he's town.

I've played like two games with him, and he was town in both of them, so he could be some kind of secret scum mastermind and I wouldn't know. But in one of the games I played with him I was really impressed because somehow he managed to just seem "townie" despite barely posting. (In the other game he didn't.)

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that he hasn't posted much, but I don't think that's a tell; and that his posts are pretty reasoned-out, but I think that's a sign of him trying to play to his strengths since he just got mislynched in PTP.

However, Hopeless - I don't really see much in the way of "actual opinions" or "positions" from you in the thread. I think you're probably town, but let me ask you - what do you think of the hapa situation, or Marv's zentor policy lynch?


Actual opinion time:

BMB's case against Hapa is shitty, and dare I say it, scummy.

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2012 16:19 BlackMamba24 wrote:
I sat down and read the whole thread now. I don't know Hapahauli's meta but I agree with Shady Sands' FOS. Hapahauli immediately breadcrumbs the VT rolename "detective" then qualifies/explains the post following it immediately.

Town wouldn't breadcrumb if they know mafia has a safeclaim and they wouldn't breadcrumb without knowing that. He didn't ask. Mafia, however, immediately like to abuse any defense they have. There is inherent guilt. If supplied with a safeclaim it's a very reasonable thing to do. I missed the Zephirrds post about the safeclaims because I'm very unattentive. When I first entered the thread, I only scanned and read the longer posts and made my comments about policy lynches. I forgot the game was starting tonight and saw my role PM right before I was about to watch a movie.

Why would a townie, after making a specific reference to his role name then immediately post that he will no longer be using real role names? Why would he even need to tell us that? Is he afraid someone is going to point it out as an inconsistency? the first two posts in the thread are him and they're both passively defensive. Scum like to announce things that are meaningless for some reason.

In his post history, he only goes on and on about lurkers and other bullshit like that. It's so tired and worthless. "Lurking is anti-town." What a revelation. Mafia are no more likely to lurk than town are and if town goes on a "let's kill the lurkers" bend how easy is it for the scum team to tell everyone on the team to just post a lot? It's stupid.

##vote Hapahauli

Also, just an aside regarding "reads". I consider them totally worthless. I will post and try to get someone lynched if I think they are mafia. I will not post a list of "suspects" or "reads" or make bullet points or anything like that. It has no value. Waste of a post. I almost made VE quit a game because I talked down on him so much for posting reads lists and other things like that so don't expect that out of me regardless of my alignment.


@The bolded in the first paragraph: BMB freely admits to not knowing Hapa's meta, but decides to make a case out of the first two posts of the game. Not just Hapa's first two, the first two of the game. Taking the brief moment it takes to review Hapa's game history:

1st post in NMMXXIII:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 06 2012 08:06 Hapahauli wrote:
‘Sup town!

Much to my delight, I’ve rolled Vanilla Townie this game – I hope strength in numbers shall prevail this game!

I ended up rolling mafia-goon in the last newbie game I played (Newbie Mafia XXI), and two members of my scumteam got away with blatant-lurking for days because of poor D1 discussion and a disorganized town. Our scumteam ended up winning that game in large part to this lack of productive discussion.

So to get things moving in a good direction, howabout some policy talk? I propose the following:
  • We will not lynch highly-active members D1! Often, the most active members in games are townies. I suggest we be very mindful of bandwagonning on active/controversial players D1 – they often get lynched in newbie games and almost always flip town.
  • We will focus our lynching efforts on less-active lurkers! Lack of discussion is bad for the town, and most mafia lurk/semi-lurk through the first few days of the game while they figure out how to play. I propose we keep the pressure up on non-posters day 1. Hell I don’t even mind a lynch-all-lurkers policy: in Newbie Mafia XXI, town would have had a 50% chance of lynching scum D1 if they went after lurking posters.



1st post NMMXXI:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 16 2012 09:35 Hapahauli wrote:
Hey folks! I rolled Vanilla Townie (again) - let's lynch us some scum!

Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 09:06 calgar wrote:
On July 16 2012 08:59 Evulrabbitz wrote:Since it's newbie games I feel people haven't really gotten a feel for their preferable playstyle and thus I deem meta analysis worthless.
I have to disagree with you here. We saw firsthand how hapa crushed hopeless last game with a thorough meta-analysis. This means it is at least worth something. Having said that, I think it will be less useful this game since those who saw what happened will be more careful to avoid similar mistakes. And some players (like me) have no history to analyze.


One of the lessons I learned from the last game (Newbie Mini Mafia XX) was how fickle meta-analysis can be. My case against Hopeless was mostly based around him mis-representing evidence and fingerpointing. The Meta was the icing on the cake. Also note that my cases/meta arguments against two players (Release and JingleHell) were ulitmately wrong. While meta has a place as supplemental evidence against players who are not self-aware of their own history, Otherwise, it lead you on a goose chase after a player who's in a bad mood in a particular game.

To re-iterate, meta is icing on the cake. We should always look for suspicious behavior and mafia-motive before even considering something like meta.

Suspicious behavior like the bolded part below:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2012 09:06 calgar wrote:
---SNIP---
And some players (like me) have no history to analyze.



That's a really subtle way to point out your newbieness. That's some mafia behavior right there.

FOS calgar




1st post NMMXX:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 05 2012 11:37 Hapahauli wrote:
Hai folks! Just opened my inbox to much relief: I'm a Vanilla Townie!

I would like to cast an FOS on JingleHell, who's actions in day 1 have been nothing but contradictions so far.

Show nested quote +
Well, Hopeless, since you're at least talking, I don't think you're scum yet. However, if day1 lurkers start causing trouble, I'm all for just throwing the dice and lynching one just to make a clear point.

Also, just as wonky meta, compared to your D1 play in XIX, I'm pretty sure you're town here. You're not afraid of prolific D1 posting, among other things.

Actually, I'm VERY suspicious about YourHarry's lightning fast vote. Could be a throwaway effort to get a bandwagon started, since D1 voting is nonsense in newbie games. In the case of a mislynch, it would be easy to argue away.


Show nested quote +
##Vote YourHarry


JingleHell opens the game by decrying D1 voting as "nonsense in newbie games," then immediately fires one out himself. When Harry replies with the innocent, "why is lightning fast vote scummy," JingleHell posts:

Show nested quote +
EBWOP: And Harry, don't try to turn my logic around on me, my vote was based on your suspicious vote.


Not only does this not address Harry's question, but it has an incredibly defensive tone when he was not yet attacked. Sounds to me like someone who is very paranoid in the early game...

Show nested quote +
I couldn't care less how many games you've played on mafiascum. As it turns out, in newbie games on TL, D1 bandwagons have a tendency to be lethal, particularly if there's no substance to the case to defend against. As such, it's better to target someone who's being either actively or passively useless, not somebody who's at least jumping into the deep end.


Show nested quote +
Oh, and bear in mind, I won't do this if a case gets made. I let people make their own counter-claim. I only stepped in because I see random D1 votes as so dangerous in our newbie games.


JingleHell posts another crusade against bandwagoning and day 1 voting, despite his earlier vote against YourHarry. In addition, he's very adamant (almost panicked) about this "avoiding bandwagoning" business. From a townie perspective, what incentive does he have to discourage bandwagnoning only a few hours into the game? I would understand if this was a day or a half-a day before the lynch, but seeing who does and does not bandwagon provides us townies with time to provide good reads. It makes no sense to take such a staunch anti-bandwagoning platform so quickly into the game.

Finally, Jingle Hell has been content to laugh off a legitimate post against his early-game behavior by lazermonkey.

Lazer's post ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&currentpage=7#132

Show nested quote +
I can't decide what to laugh at first, but at least now people are explaining votes.

If you want to see what showed me that early voting with no rationalization at all is bad, go see D1 XIX. Ridiculous mislynch, because of votes with zero substance.


No defense, and completely ignores a topic worthy of response.

In conclusion, FOS on JingleHell. His actions regarding D1 voting are contradictory, and he's taken a very suspicious stance on anti-bandwagnoning so early into day 1.




I'm seeing a trend here. None of this is indicative of Hapa's alignment, but it's depressing to see that BMB couldn't be bothered to look into Hapa's meta.

Instead, Hapa is clearly posting with inherent guilt, clearly trying to breadcrumb his 'fakeclaim' and assumes Hapa didn't know about mafia getting the fake claims. That wasn't the point of his post...that's just how he opens games. To make it the basis for a case is lazy and foolish.

He also pushes the policy talk into his case against Hapa. Why is that scummy again? It was scarcely 5 hours into the game.

Marv and ghost, you seem to think this goes into WIFOM on whether BMB knows his case is bad and he's baiting. Can you answer whether or not YOU would have bothered to check Hapa's "opening-post meta" before basing a case around it?

Either way, BMB is the scummiest looking player to me.



As for Zentor...from what I saw in MadMen, I'd be inclined to agree with a policy lynch, but then...

[Stating the obvious] I want to lynch scum [/Stating the obvious]

Pressure him, and if he doesn't respond, then sure, lynch the sucker. I'd rather give him a chance to begin with though. There's always the possibility that he is in fact useful.




Deadline is 7:30 pm for me. I should have no issue with being active leading up to it.
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
August 31 2012 15:33 GMT
#177
Where are node and mementoss?

Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.
Что?
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
August 31 2012 15:36 GMT
#178
On September 01 2012 00:33 Shady Sands wrote:
Where are node and mementoss?

Also, Solarsail seems to be trying to skulk through an active discussion. I don't really like that.


Sup? Reading.

I think deadline will be a problem for me most nights. I will be able to stay until an hour away so its not bad.

Since a lot of people have to leave really far from deadline, its best to get cases out early in the day discuss them and vote when you think you have scum, so it doesn't end up being a last minute vote switching bandwagoning shit fest. Hopeless knows about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
ghost_403
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1825 Posts
August 31 2012 15:41 GMT
#179
@hopeless: My problem is that I can't see a scum motivation for BMB presenting a bad case. Bringing forward an immature (as in age) case like that doesn't buy him any towncred. He didn't need it to prove that he's active in this game. It's not like he's trying to convince the town to stop listening to Hapa. I can't see why a scum BMB would present that case.
They say great science is built on the shoulders of giants. Not here. At Aperture, we do all our science from scratch, no hand holding. Step aside, REAL SCIENCE coming through.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
August 31 2012 15:42 GMT
#180
On September 01 2012 00:41 ghost_403 wrote:
@hopeless: My problem is that I can't see a scum motivation for BMB presenting a bad case. Bringing forward an immature (as in age) case like that doesn't buy him any towncred. He didn't need it to prove that he's active in this game. It's not like he's trying to convince the town to stop listening to Hapa. I can't see why a scum BMB would present that case.


then why is he marked down for now as scum in your spreadsheet?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
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