EPTTL Knowhow is Live! - Page 6
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
I'm finally back up and back to work. In terms of comments and feedback trying to break down the concept, it's approach etc, lets say this, that much of what has been written has been already debated within TL staff for weeks boarding on and off for months with much the same feedback, but what has come up is that we're giving it a shot. One issue is that people are simply reading this introduction post and commenting on their thoughts on the concept rather than actually reading the posts that have been written and seeing it as a whole. In many ways, the commitment that each writer makes by writing such a post is also to follow up on the discussion whether it be specific quotes or chapters within the book and that is a lot of time commitment. Time that for someone like myself would only commit if I got something out of it, such as if it were training for my staff, I was getting paid my $xxx hourly rate for consulting or if they were related or a younger friend or colleague. In this case, I'm going above what I'd normally share in a blog, we've taken time to structure, organize, edit and really invest more than just time, but take it not just as a casual endevour, and there have been a number of PM by people, if not more qualified than me in their respective fields, willing to commit the same time and effort as a volunteer. Why? Because the monetary incentive isn't the incentive here and in fact knowing that TL may get both a community contribution and financial contribution makes it more appealing to someone like me, but maybe that is just me, because nothing has stopped me from contributing to the community thus far, this is just another avenue. In terms of the focus of the posts, again, what does knowhow mean, are we providing lip service to it, if you read my second post, I share my own knowhow in explaining what really is the business mentality. Now you may not think, it is anything special, and how related is it to the actual book? It is and it isn't but I've made the effort, and it is effort to really make a post that shares my knowhow, base it someone who is published and in having also presented my approach in looking at the book, am prepared now to work with readers through it, as both a text, but also if they take their own action and start their own kickstarter project or any business, hypothetical or otherwise. Again, most of the comments for or against the concept were already brought up within TL staff, but what it came down to was giving it a shot to see it in practice, because fundamentally the concept isn't something bad, and you can assume that it is just cover for something terrible, but again, in practice if it does what we are looking for then it should be a win win on every level and again the proof will be in the practice. Everything new is never good, and it can go badly, but take it from the context of just looking at the concept and see it in practice, we have the ability to make it the best it can be. But again, I understand there are concerns and from just the introductory news post that it may not be clear as to the whys and that we've missed things but if you give us the benefit of the doubt that in practice we should make things clearer over time, then it's all I'm asking. | ||
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:23 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This is kind of like "Build Orders For Life". It is in my expert opinion that you consider this for the motto. lol, that motto does cut to the heart of it =) I will seriously consider it. I could see it on TL t-shirt too. ^^ | ||
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ulan-bat
China403 Posts
I don't like mingling knowledge sharing with any kind of money-related incentive, be it for the own good of TL or not. Particularly when I read people want to "produce content" and the like. TL Knowhow is just about creating a distinct section with one only particular characteristic being that there is a link to amazon at the end of the OP. And an heavier moderation on the OP. Nothing else is any different from any regular TL thread right? This post supports this game and TL. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Just want to say that I am quite shocked about the advertising requirement.... You want us to write articles to spread knowledge. But only if we advertise a product at the same time? I can't see how the two have to come together, or even how they are remotely related... I can't imagine a reason to require advertisements here, that could not be used to require advertisement in every, say, general forum thread. I can't help but feel that this completely uncalled for advertisement is related to the fact that the driving person is writing about start up business. I am perfectly fine with the ads at the top and side of the site, I am fine with the store being on the start page. This, however, makes no sense to me whatsoever, and I find it disgusting to be honest. And you say that this has been discussed for long in the mod forum, with this result? I have been registered at TL for some time, and never seen anything from the mod staff that I didn't agree with, or could accept. Individual mistakes here and there, fine, but not more. Even the storm of new people with sc2 was handled very well. But if this is what the collected staff of TL comes up with....  The first time I really dislike TL.I would consider contributing to this section otherwise, but no way I will advertise like that. To mighty atom, and the staff that agreed on this: BIG overstep in my book. For the first time I see TL as a bunch of greedy sellouts. | ||
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 10:26 Cascade wrote: Sorry for not reading all the replies. Just want to say that I am quite shocked about the advertising requirement.... You want us to write articles to spread knowledge. But only if we advertise a product at the same time? I can't see how the two have to come together, or even how they are remotely related... I can't imagine a reason to require advertisements here, that could not be used to require advertisement in every, say, general forum thread. I can't help but feel that this completely uncalled for advertisement is related to the fact that the driving person is writing about start up business. I am perfectly fine with the ads at the top and side of the site, I am fine with the store being on the start page. This, however, makes no sense to me whatsoever, and I find it disgusting to be honest. And you say that this has been discussed for long in the mod forum, with this result? I have been registered at TL for some time, and never seen anything from the mod staff that I didn't agree with, or could accept. Individual mistakes here and there, fine, but not more. Even the storm of new people with sc2 was handled very well. But if this is what the collected staff of TL comes up with.... The first time I really dislike TL.I would consider contributing to this section otherwise, but no way I will advertise like that. To mighty atom, and the staff that agreed on this: BIG overstep in my book. For the first time I see TL as a bunch of greedy sellouts. Can you please also read some of the posts I've made and then get back to me on it. Cause the amount of effort I put into them was considerable. And read my post about 4 above. I get your reaction, totally valid, but what the concept is as an initial reaction is quite polarizing to some people, but in practice I hope that it isn't as bleak as a picture as you've painted it to be. And I take full responsibility for the concept and the final structure of this section. This doesn't preclude anyone from contributing the way they have before as well. But if you also read all the comments as well, you'll see that your reaction was shared by some TL staff as well. But they've given me the benefit of the doubt to see the outcome. But if you want to brand anyone a 'greedy sell out' for providing their time and commitment in this format, then yes, I am your man. And the fact that you use advertise, where I would use share, I mean, you could still accuse me for being a marketing bastard and it's my nature to do so, but again, please read the posts that I have written and see if we haven't tried to make a balance towards community contribution first. But I won't shy and not be upfront about the other financial side to it. But I have been a 'greedy sell out' for some time now as my main profession as management consultant. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On July 17 2012 10:37 MightyAtom wrote: Can you please also read some of the posts I've made and then get back to me on it. Cause the amount of effort I put into them was considerable. And read my post about 4 above. I get your reaction, totally valid, but what the concept is as an initial reaction is quite polarizing to some people, but in practice I hope that it isn't as bleak as a picture as you've painted it to be. And I take full responsibility for the concept and the final structure of this section. This doesn't preclude anyone from contributing the way they have before as well. But if you also read all the comments as well, you'll see that your reaction was shared by some TL staff as well. But they've given me the benefit of the doubt to see the outcome. But if you want to brand anyone a 'greedy sell out' for providing their time and commitment in this format, then yes, I am your man. And the fact that you use advertise, where I would use share, I mean, you could still accuse me for being a marketing bastard and it's my nature to do so, but again, please read the posts that I have written and see if we haven't tried to make a balance towards community contribution first. But I won't shy and not be upfront about the other financial side to it. But I have been a 'greedy sell out' for some time now as my main profession as management consultant. I've read your posts in this thread. I just see you repeat how you see the point in the complaints, and how it is a tryout, and how you take responsibility. Not a single argument for why this is actually a good idea. Which, tbh, I see as quite typical for a seller with a bad product. And yes, I definitely read you as a greedy, and the supporting TL mods as sell outs. Which for your part is normal in your profession I guess, but I wouldn't expect it to go through the TL staff. Either you are a damn good seller, and managed to convince the rest of the TL staff, or the entire staff is getting greedy. You want to be upfront about the money part, but you prefer to use the word share? Really? You know the difference between sharing and advertising? Sharing: hey, I did this, and it was really cool! You should consider trying it as well! Advertising: Hey, I did this, and it was really cool. You should try it as well, because I get money if you do! And what you suggest is sharing? Really? Yes, marketing bastard is a good word. Actually, let me upgrade that to deceiving marketing bastard. But apart from the personal insults (I mean every word, but it's off topic, sorry for that) the important point is that there is no connection whatsoever between sharing knowledge, and advertising. I don't find any in the OP, or in any of your replies. It may be that the information I want to share leads up to something that can be bought, but that goes for any subforum on TL. None of those subforums have a requirement that you need to advertise for TL with every OP. Should glider have to advertise pens every time he posts his work? Should a guide about sc2 graphics settings have to include advertisements for graphics cards? Does cecile Sunkure have to post advertisements for coaching services with each of his strategy guides? How is this sub forum any different? It changes the entire idea of TL, from a forum for exchanging ideas and information, to a factory for free advertisement for you. Again, I'm fine with seeing ads that you put up on the page, but to force people to take part of selling is entirely different, and to me something disgusting. If you would provide the option (ie, not forced to) to have these sponsored links, I would be ready to discuss it. If someone wants to help TL by using these sponsored links, fine. But again, no reason to have this in this sub forum more than any other. This would be equally fine all over TL, so that also glider or whoever could use them. But only in case they actually feel that it is really motivated, both from the context, and if they feel they want to support TL that little extra. But to block contributions because they do not want to post advertisement for you? Is that really what is best for the TL community, or even long term TL.net interests? How could any mod agree on this? | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
On July 17 2012 10:37 MightyAtom wrote: Can you please also read some of the posts I've made and then get back to me on it. Cause the amount of effort I put into them was considerable. And read my post about 4 above. I get your reaction, totally valid, but what the concept is as an initial reaction is quite polarizing to some people, but in practice I hope that it isn't as bleak as a picture as you've painted it to be. And I take full responsibility for the concept and the final structure of this section. This doesn't preclude anyone from contributing the way they have before as well. But if you also read all the comments as well, you'll see that your reaction was shared by some TL staff as well. But they've given me the benefit of the doubt to see the outcome. But if you want to brand anyone a 'greedy sell out' for providing their time and commitment in this format, then yes, I am your man. And the fact that you use advertise, where I would use share, I mean, you could still accuse me for being a marketing bastard and it's my nature to do so, but again, please read the posts that I have written and see if we haven't tried to make a balance towards community contribution first. But I won't shy and not be upfront about the other financial side to it. But I have been a 'greedy sell out' for some time now as my main profession as management consultant. Blahhh, I told myself I wouldn't respond anymore, but I'm really bad at keeping to that I did read all of the posts in this topic, including yours, and I've talked with a few people I know outside of here as well. I guess in concept, I don't have a problem with you having a section that's exactly as you've laid it out if it were called something else (say "TL Product Database", or TLPD for short  ). I would not personally choose to contribute to it, but its existence wouldn't bother me and I probably wouldn't have bothered commenting on it at all.What I do have a problem with is what I feel is essentially a kind of false advertising that's going on here, where I feel what the original post delivers is simply not what it promises to deliver. When I read the first section, I was pretty hyped and said to myself "wow, this actually sounds pretty badass!" Then I read the rest of the post, and I felt as if I could simply find a knowledgeable amazon.com featured reviewer and look at what (s)he recommended... You can say what you want about "And the fact that you use advertise, where I would use share", but the fact is that using something like share is just using 'weasel words' to disguise what is essentially an advertisement: an article that must make at least 1 recommendation for something that the reader will hopefully buy; what is that but an advertisement? "We are hoping to take it step further by creating a specialized section where community members can share the special insights and understanding they have gained as they have pursued their careers and passions in life." Are you really claiming that everything people in their fields have learnt is going to boil down to having some product recommendation? I do wonder who wrote the + Show Spoiler [What is Knowhow?] + "Know-how (or knowhow as it is sometimes written) is practical knowledge of how to get something done, as opposed to “know-what” (facts), “know-why” (science), or “know-who” (networking). Know-how is often tacit knowledge, which means that it is difficult to transfer to another person by means of writing it down or verbalising it. The opposite of tacit knowledge is explicit knowledge. (Wikipedia)." Knowhow is after the theories and strategies, it is the knowledge of how to survive to get to your goal, or to outperform others to make it or simply how to get to a level of practical understanding faster. The term 'knowhow' refers to knowledge which is critical and insightful but which is developed internally and not publicly known or taught in a systematic process. Knowhow is usually applied to industrial processes, making the same machine or process produce 'more' than the same machine/process in the hands of another operator, whether it be the right room tempurature or the exact type of oil that adds 0.5% better performance. But in the broader context, social or career based knowhow is one of the last types of knowledge that is passed on through directly sharing experiences. By its nature, knowhow is about results and getting to the results with less effort, more output or faster, it is about increasing your performance and it isn't something you can just pick up from a manual, but is something passed on through training or articulated by using someone's experience as a base. This is very different than a theory or opinion because it's value is based off a process that is validated because of its results. An example of this is if you were raised in an engineering family, meaning both your parents are engineers or a doctor's family or restaurantuer's family. Whether you realize it or not, things that you take as 'givens' such as a more analytic approach to life, or understanding basic human biology and what certain types of medication do, or what are the different standards of customer service are, this is all knowhow that unless someone was raised in the same family or did the same job, they would have no access to though common resources of knowledge. Knowhow is both simply passed on, but is also guarded fiercely as it may be the only competitive factor that a company or individual has when all things are equal. Thus, the effectiveness of knowhow is mainly to it's very specific nature to a process or task. It may be as simple as a single function command, but used properly can save hours of work and may be completely obvious after the fact, but the amount of experience to have come to such an obvious outcome may have been hours upon hours of trial and error. But the fact that it is obvious and effective makes it true knowhow. Due to the nature of when and how knowhow is 'passed on', the only reason to share knowhow is because they are family or work in the same company and are aligned with the same goals/objectives "Knowhow is after the theories and strategies, it is the knowledge of how to survive to get to your goal, or to outperform others to make it or simply how to get to a level of practical understanding faster. The term 'knowhow' refers to knowledge which is critical and insightful but which is developed internally and not publicly known or taught in a systematic process. " This in particular seems incredibly different from what's being delivered. Nowhere in the description of knowhow do I get any particular feeling that it's tied to product endorsements; can you honestly say you feel the description of what Know-how is leads you to that conclusion? I'm mighty curious now which staff members were against it I suppose one thing I will say in its favor is that you are at least upfront about the product placement requirement, rather than covertly trying to enforce it, or just rejecting articles that didn't have recommendations. | ||
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:12 Cascade wrote: I've read your posts in this thread. I just see you repeat how you see the point in the complaints, and how it is a tryout, and how you take responsibility. Not a single argument for why this is actually a good idea. Which, tbh, I see as quite typical for a seller with a bad product. And yes, I definitely read you as a greedy, and the supporting TL mods as sell outs. Which for your part is normal in your profession I guess, but I wouldn't expect it to go through the TL staff. Either you are a damn good seller, and managed to convince the rest of the TL staff, or the entire staff is getting greedy. You want to be upfront about the money part, but you prefer to use the word share? Really? You know the difference between sharing and advertising? Sharing: hey, I did this, and it was really cool! You should consider trying it as well! Advertising: Hey, I did this, and it was really cool. You should try it as well, because I get money if you do! And what you suggest is sharing? Really? Yes, marketing bastard is a good word. Actually, let me upgrade that to deceiving marketing bastard. But apart from the personal insults (I mean every word, but it's off topic, sorry for that) the important point is that there is no connection whatsoever between sharing knowledge, and advertising. I don't find any in the OP, or in any of your replies. It may be that the information I want to share leads up to something that can be bought, but that goes for any subforum on TL. None of those subforums have a requirement that you need to advertise for TL with every OP. Should glider have to advertise pens every time he posts his work? Should a guide about sc2 graphics settings have to include advertisements for graphics cards? Does cecile Sunkure have to post advertisements for coaching services with each of his strategy guides? How is this sub forum any different? It changes the entire idea of TL, from a forum for exchanging ideas and information, to a factory for free advertisement for you. Again, I'm fine with seeing ads that you put up on the page, but to force people to take part of selling is entirely different, and to me something disgusting. If you would provide the option (ie, not forced to) to have these sponsored links, I would be ready to discuss it. If someone wants to help TL by using these sponsored links, fine. But again, no reason to have this in this sub forum more than any other. This would be equally fine all over TL, so that also glider or whoever could use them. But only in case they actually feel that it is really motivated, both from the context, and if they feel they want to support TL that little extra. But to block contributions because they do not want to post advertisement for you? Is that really what is best for the TL community, or even long term TL.net interests? How could any mod agree on this? I won't get into a person thing here, you're obviously pissed and so emotions are what they are and you clearly on the other spectrum of where I'm at. 1. You're not forced to contribute to this section, but you're just also singling one aspect out and making the connection on your own. You're absolutely right, there is no connection to sharing knowledge and advertising, but it is the format of this particular section. You're not looking at all or considering what the role of the book or product has as reference point to the post. And thanks for reading the replies in this post, but again, have you read the posts as well to see if there isn't a balance there. (not to say in your current frame of mind it would be at all well received). 2. There is an objective here, and before going all Joan of Arc here, why not ask first, what was the rational behind this section? I wanted to develop out the blog section and the featured blogger addition was part of that, and so was this section, why? Yes, I wanted to consider something that would financially contribute to TL without being invasive or against the spirit of TL and also contribute to that community. Is that possible even? Maybe, maybe not, but should it stop us from trying to work something out? The goal here is ambitious and maybe at this point we are failing at it because even my own posts are about business as it is my professional background. But, if you're of the opinion that TL shouldn't consider anything to do with revenue, then I guess nothing I have to say will make a dent, but of course I know your position is not that simplistic. The idea of that there is this commercial requirement to contribute is what is getting your goat. But for someone on my side, because there is this additional benefit to TL and via my contribution of information I wouldn't normally share or commit to flushing out, it makes it also worth while. Because in my worldview, there is the community, but also the strength of the organization behind it that makes it what is its and I don't think its bad to contribute to both and I don't think one cancels out the other. And there is always a fine line in any transitional period or any organization as it grows where it can lose its focus of how it has grown to the point it has, and I'm acutely aware and sensitive to that, but to simply ignore or not try to address the issue or just think that it is a non issue whatsoever, is also counter productive as well. There are things I'd like to see TL do, like host an event as big as blizcon one day (just my person thoughts), and where do we need to be at to make that happen? I mean there is a broader picture out here of long term objectives that I and others have spent a lot of time thinking about, but for the here and now, you're reaction perfectly valid. So TL staff has given me a chance here to make this work, I'm thankful for that opportunity to contribute in this way. They know my background, my contribution to e-sports and my contributions to TL as well as my professional business background, so they've given me the benefit of the doubt. You of course are under so such obligation and you don't need to give it a chance either, so at the end, it does become your opinion, and the position of this section which I hope I've put into context as much as I can. In terms of the personal attacks, go ahead, let it rip, because I get you're upset, and really you don't know me, I don't know you and I honestly couldn't care less, but for you to paint things so black and white doesn't help get to any insight here, so I hope that at least been able to sincerely do that, even as you will rip me to put this into context that I am a deceitful marketing bastard. We expected people to be upset, but to be clear, if TL is to be blamed for giving this a shot so be it, but again, I'm thankful for them to give me the benefit of the doubt and the onus is on me to make it work. | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
However, suppose I don't have a reference that I consider meaningful, why should I still be forced to include an affiliate link? For example, I would want to write an article about Air Traffic Control and Air Navigation in general, but I don't have anything I would want to link with it. Everything I have learned is widely available to the public or is company-produced. The only products I can conceive packaging with it are things like games (which obviously doesn't serve to enhance the article in question). I mean manuals/textbooks exist for ATC but I can't personally recommend any as we don't actually use any for teaching purposes. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:45 sluggaslamoo wrote: Honestly half the time when you are writing an article to educate someone on something you are recommending books anyway, so making money out of it is genius. Half the time is key there. The other half you have nothing to recommend. So why force it? I just don't see good justification for making it anything but optional. | ||
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:40 Insane wrote: e: by the way, I started writing this before Cascade posted the post he just did above. Blahhh, I told myself I wouldn't respond anymore, but I'm really bad at keeping to that I did read all of the posts in this topic, including yours, and I've talked with a few people I know outside of here as well. I guess in concept, I don't have a problem with you having a section that's exactly as you've laid it out if it were called something else (say "TL Product Database", or TLPD for short ). I would not personally choose to contribute to it, but its existence wouldn't bother me and I probably wouldn't have bothered commenting on it at all.What I do have a problem with is what I feel is essentially a kind of false advertising that's going on here, where I feel what the original post delivers is simply not what it promises to deliver. When I read the first section, I was pretty hyped and said to myself "wow, this actually sounds pretty badass!" Then I read the rest of the post, and I felt as if I could simply find a knowledgeable amazon.com featured reviewer and look at what (s)he recommended... You can say what you want about "And the fact that you use advertise, where I would use share", but the fact is that using something like share is just using 'weasel words' to disguise what is essentially an advertisement: an article that must make at least 1 recommendation for something that the reader will hopefully buy; what is that but an advertisement? "We are hoping to take it step further by creating a specialized section where community members can share the special insights and understanding they have gained as they have pursued their careers and passions in life." Are you really claiming that everything people in their fields have learnt is going to boil down to having some product recommendation? I do wonder who wrote the + Show Spoiler [What is Knowhow?] + "Know-how (or knowhow as it is sometimes written) is practical knowledge of how to get something done, as opposed to “know-what” (facts), “know-why” (science), or “know-who” (networking). Know-how is often tacit knowledge, which means that it is difficult to transfer to another person by means of writing it down or verbalising it. The opposite of tacit knowledge is explicit knowledge. (Wikipedia)." Knowhow is after the theories and strategies, it is the knowledge of how to survive to get to your goal, or to outperform others to make it or simply how to get to a level of practical understanding faster. The term 'knowhow' refers to knowledge which is critical and insightful but which is developed internally and not publicly known or taught in a systematic process. Knowhow is usually applied to industrial processes, making the same machine or process produce 'more' than the same machine/process in the hands of another operator, whether it be the right room tempurature or the exact type of oil that adds 0.5% better performance. But in the broader context, social or career based knowhow is one of the last types of knowledge that is passed on through directly sharing experiences. By its nature, knowhow is about results and getting to the results with less effort, more output or faster, it is about increasing your performance and it isn't something you can just pick up from a manual, but is something passed on through training or articulated by using someone's experience as a base. This is very different than a theory or opinion because it's value is based off a process that is validated because of its results. An example of this is if you were raised in an engineering family, meaning both your parents are engineers or a doctor's family or restaurantuer's family. Whether you realize it or not, things that you take as 'givens' such as a more analytic approach to life, or understanding basic human biology and what certain types of medication do, or what are the different standards of customer service are, this is all knowhow that unless someone was raised in the same family or did the same job, they would have no access to though common resources of knowledge. Knowhow is both simply passed on, but is also guarded fiercely as it may be the only competitive factor that a company or individual has when all things are equal. Thus, the effectiveness of knowhow is mainly to it's very specific nature to a process or task. It may be as simple as a single function command, but used properly can save hours of work and may be completely obvious after the fact, but the amount of experience to have come to such an obvious outcome may have been hours upon hours of trial and error. But the fact that it is obvious and effective makes it true knowhow. Due to the nature of when and how knowhow is 'passed on', the only reason to share knowhow is because they are family or work in the same company and are aligned with the same goals/objectives "Knowhow is after the theories and strategies, it is the knowledge of how to survive to get to your goal, or to outperform others to make it or simply how to get to a level of practical understanding faster. The term 'knowhow' refers to knowledge which is critical and insightful but which is developed internally and not publicly known or taught in a systematic process. " This in particular seems incredibly different from what's being delivered. Nowhere in the description of knowhow do I get any particular feeling that it's tied to product endorsements; can you honestly say you feel the description of what Know-how is leads you to that conclusion? I'm mighty curious now which staff members were against it I suppose one thing I will say in its favor is that you are at least upfront about the product placement requirement, rather than covertly trying to enforce it, or just rejecting articles that didn't have recommendations. Thanks for the post, 1. Again, people think there is no function to the requirement of the book, but there is one to prevent it from turning into just an FAQ AMA thread, we do want things to have some reference, and yes, the format was made to kill 2 birds with one stone. So yes, it is advertising, but it is also recommending and if you think it is just semantics, it's not because of the role the book plays as a reference to the post. The posts are not just, lets think, but rather, lets do. 2. I wrote that part on the knowhow and I think over time, the posts will reflect that over just sharing knowledge and there is a difference here, knowledge you can google, knowhow not so much so. And again, this is a very long term project, it doesn't live and breath of people buying the book, what if everyone goes to the library and borrows it, do I feel less about it? Of course not, in fact the counter argument was that this model wasn't even efficient in generating revenue because of that. But I am happy to contribute in this capacity with the potential for revenue, again, its not a requirement to read the content, as long as you can get your hands on a copy of the book, you can read it or even just follow along in the thread, but this is definitely a thread for doers who want to really learn and in that sense, from my perspective, that fact is, really.. You just have the option to support or not, if you don't its totally fine, and the content is there for you because the content stands alone as a contribution to the community. None of the volunteers thus far, who are extremely qualified are like, how much will my contribution make for TL, rather, they are asking, how can we make this work in this format and what can I share. So if the issue is really about the writer and not the reader, and the writer feeling like they forced to commercialize their contribution, no one is forcing anyone to contribute here and if the idea of it bothers you, well I can't help someone's personal position/preference/ideals. But for some writers it does make sense as it makes sense to me. It has forced me to write something of a higher level of quality that I normally would't as a persona blog as well as structure it so it isn't just bullshit off the top of my head but is kept honest by an association to a reference book and a call to action to the reader. And I really didn't want to bring this up, but I will at this point. Why I really think it is key to match it some type of reference book (which obviously can be bought etc), is that, I did my first grad studies in theology, Masters of Divinity. And my specialization was homiletic and systematic theology. Homiletics is the study of interpreting the bible for preaching -ok- I know this is getting really weird but. There are preachers that just preach from one line in the bible and they usually take it out of context and their are others that respect where the passage is coming from and it usually keeps them more honest to the point of the text. In the same way, I do want the book to act as that reference point, the fact that we also can make a referral fee from it is what I'd consider good project structuring, but is also what may be the grip of a lot of Tlers. But even if we did this section without a referral link, I'd still require a book as a reference point, why? Because in my opinion it does put some level of accountability and focus on the writer's content. So either way, there would have been a book or some external point of reference, but yes, we would like to also commercialize that point of reference. And not as a side, but structurally designed to do so along side the accountability/focus issue as well as the general contribution to the community the knowhow content. At the end of the day, this section will depend on contributors, while I could share x amount, I'm only one person, with only x amount of time, looking after a family of two kids, 3 companies directly and 1 company as an advisor and I am in transit in different countries at least 10 days out of the month. I say that, not because I'm burdened, (I love working in general), but because no matter how much I contribute, this will thrive or fail based on the contribution of writers and if they do not agree with this structure/format, it will simply not work and it will be a failed attempt. But if it works, it will work because of the writers who feel the contribution is valid in its current format. So I guess in my view, lets let time sort it out, and it was a split view on this project, but again, they've given me the benefit of the doubt to go ahead with it. Cheers. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:44 MightyAtom wrote: You're absolutely right, there is no connection to sharing knowledge and advertising, but it is the format of this particular section. Well, this would be enough for me to shut this down at first glance. All the other things you say doesn't at all change this fact, and it doesn't make it any less black and white. Most of it isn't even related to my concern. Again, why should we not do this in other subforums? You say that this is just a test. Does that mean that if this is successful, then you will start adding it to other subforums as well? As apparently a subforum not being at all connected to advertising seems to be a reason to start forcing people to advertise when posting in it. | ||
Empyrean
16950 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On July 17 2012 12:13 MightyAtom wrote: And I really didn't want to bring this up, but I will at this point. Why I really think it is key to match it some type of reference book (which obviously can be bought etc), is that, I did my first grad studies in theology, Masters of Divinity. And my specialization was homiletic and systematic theology. Homiletics is the study of interpreting the bible for preaching -ok- I know this is getting really weird but. There are preachers that just preach from one line in the bible and they usually take it out of context and their are others that respect where the passage is coming from and it usually keeps them more honest to the point of the text. In the same way, I do want the book to act as that reference point, the fact that we also can make a referral fee from it is what I'd consider good project structuring, but is also what may be the grip of a lot of Tlers. But even if we did this section without a referral link, I'd still require a book as a reference point, why? Because in my opinion it does put some level of accountability and focus on the writer's content. So either way, there would have been a book or some external point of reference, but yes, we would like to also commercialize that point of reference. And not as a side, but structurally designed to do so along side the accountability/focus issue as well as the general contribution to the community the knowhow content. Umm, that is called to present your sources. It is, again, very different from advertising... You may have heard of places like wikipedia that actually provide sources without trying to sell any books to you for profit. Also, a source that you have to pay for to read is a horrible source. If the source of information is trying to earn money, they don't have correct information as the first goal any longer, but selling copies. Which leads to overly sensational titles, and radically overplaying it's own merit. In other words, not reliable. For a good source, something like wikipedia, and indirectly the sources the wiki article points to, or even freely available scientific articles are much more credible. But by now it is pretty clear that the objective of this subforum is not to provide the TL readers with good information. | ||
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:44 DoomsVille wrote: Your argument for recommending a book/product hinges on the fact that it makes a meaningful/valuable contribution to the overall article. However, suppose I don't have a reference that I consider meaningful, why should I still be forced to include an affiliate link? For example, I would want to write an article about Air Traffic Control and Air Navigation in general, but I don't have anything I would want to link with it. Everything I have learned is widely available to the public or is company-produced. The only products I can conceive packaging with it are things like games (which obviously doesn't serve to enhance the article in question). I mean manuals/textbooks exist for ATC but I can't personally recommend any as we don't actually use any for teaching purposes. I think the main point is, from my last post that I just wrote is, not turning it into an AMA or FAQ thread for this section, and it may be an effort to make the format work, but this is the format for this section. Otherwise, there isn't anything stopping anyone from making an AMA thread on TL but there is the two objectives here and if it isn't appealing it isn't. So no one is being forced to include an affiliate link and if there a book that may have contributed a bit to your passion of Air Traffic Control or a movie that actually depicts what it is really like and you can say, that is a legit representation of what I'm talking about, then great. I mean lets not just assume that there isn't a way we can't figure out how to make it work in one way or another. But as the start of a project I do want to keep the focus on these two objectives and I don't one being lost in the way side. Also, this section was launched much later after the 'featured blogs' section and was meant to be seen as a whole, so it not we are saying, this is the only place you can post your own knowledge, etc but again, this is the format for this particular section, but again, nothing stopping you from just posting your own contribution on your own terms and getting a mod to highlight it. I know its not what you wanted to hear, but its what it is, and again, nothing precludes you from just making a blog on it if you so chose and I'm sure if you wanted the article to be in the knowhow section for whatever reason, we could figure out how to make it work in a meaningful way that contributes to the article than rather than just being a tack on to meet some commercial qualification (which would be against your entire position anyway and probably even dissuade you from writing the it for the knowhow section). And that is I guess the last key point: we do want the reference or product to add to the article as the format and structure of the article and I don't think its that big of an issue, but definitely on one's moral/commercial position, it may be a huge issue. But really, if there are no books or references what so ever, then we'd take it on a case by case basis, but maybe the article is better just to be highlighted as a really special stand alone article. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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MightyAtom
Korea (South)1897 Posts
On July 17 2012 12:28 Cascade wrote: Umm, that is called to present your sources. It is, again, very different from advertising... You may have heard of places like wikipedia that actually provide sources without trying to sell any books to you for profit. Also, a source that you have to pay for to read is a horrible source. If the source of information is trying to earn money, they don't have correct information as the first goal any longer, but selling copies. Which leads to overly sensational titles, and radically overplaying it's own merit. In other words, not reliable. For a good source, something like wikipedia, and indirectly the sources the wiki article points to, or even freely available scientific articles are much more credible. But by now it is pretty clear that the objective of this subforum is not to provide the TL readers with good information. yes, you're absolutely right, it's not to provide TL readers with good information, its to provide them for knowhow and what that entails. | ||
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