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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On December 20 2012 01:11 Laurens wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2012 23:46 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:49 akatama wrote:I don't want this to degenerate into flaming but if you don't believe me fire up WC3 and load a DotA version before her aura and ulti change and compare the damage. Her old aura granted 32% of base dmg so that is 6-7dmg(because it counted the 20 something base dmg too) + an extra 6% scaling compared to the current aura. Old ultimate granted 15/30/60 agility (please correct me) all the time, so in a teamfight having someone tanky stand in her face lowers the dmg even more. So by lvl 16 her current ultimate grants 80-60 = 20 extra agility in ideal conditions. 6 + 6% of her agility = 20 leads to her needing around 230 agility for her old self do do more damage. Considering by lvl 16 she has 115 agility from Marksmanship + agi growth + 1 point in stats she needs another 115. We can conclude that she has slightly more dmg now (14-15 dmg so she can counter the Doom armor buff  ) at lvl 16 than before assuming no one stands near her in a teamfight. If that is the case, she deals less damage as to before. The issue with old Drow is that she brought slightly more single target dmg than other carries at the cost of burst while still lacking hard disables and having a worse late game (the main reason you pick a carry in the first place). Now she actually has a niche in that she can provide insane right click damage early-mid game (so that is sustained damage) while synergizing with ranged gankers and heroes with ranged summons (Enigma, BM, Chen, Ench, etc.). With the global creep aura gone she is not a godly pusher anymore. It was a neat idea but can't be properly balanced with ease. Another factor involved is that she was slowly buffed over time. Just look up old changelogs, ever since 6.72 she got buffs in every major version, but until the remake of Marksmanship and Precision Aura she was still regarded as an "useless agility right click hero". To end this post, throughout DotA history pubbies have struggled to actually work together as a team and play the game the way it is meant to be played. A lot of pubstar heroes focus on quickly dispatching lone targets and feeding on them until they can overpower the enemy team even in small groups (2v5, 3v5). I hope she makes it into CM next version and will just shut up everyone that sais she is fine. A carryhero that gets ridiculous at lvl 6 is not "fine". She plays like Lina... Whiteout Manacosts/Cooldown at this stage of the game... If a target gets in range of you and you don't get immediatly forced back/stunned/wtfpwnd yourself it just dies. She has 0 escape or stuns, in competitive play she would get ganked repeatedly, I also hope she makes it in CM the next patch to prove people like you wrong 
Sure progamers would find other ways to abuse her potential beyond imagination. Like picking pure push lineup with lots of range summons and end the game around lvl12-14. If a hero achieves high win rates in pubs(pre-patch lycan), it will result perma ban most of the time in tourneys.
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She was 100% Topban/Pick in the recent WC3 Dota tourney.
That was before the auroa nerf but i doubt it will change THAT much because she is still a toppick for push heavy lineups... She just actually needs to be present with the push now (OH NOES!).
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On December 20 2012 01:17 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 01:11 Laurens wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2012 23:46 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:49 akatama wrote:I don't want this to degenerate into flaming but if you don't believe me fire up WC3 and load a DotA version before her aura and ulti change and compare the damage. Her old aura granted 32% of base dmg so that is 6-7dmg(because it counted the 20 something base dmg too) + an extra 6% scaling compared to the current aura. Old ultimate granted 15/30/60 agility (please correct me) all the time, so in a teamfight having someone tanky stand in her face lowers the dmg even more. So by lvl 16 her current ultimate grants 80-60 = 20 extra agility in ideal conditions. 6 + 6% of her agility = 20 leads to her needing around 230 agility for her old self do do more damage. Considering by lvl 16 she has 115 agility from Marksmanship + agi growth + 1 point in stats she needs another 115. We can conclude that she has slightly more dmg now (14-15 dmg so she can counter the Doom armor buff ) at lvl 16 than before assuming no one stands near her in a teamfight. If that is the case, she deals less damage as to before. The issue with old Drow is that she brought slightly more single target dmg than other carries at the cost of burst while still lacking hard disables and having a worse late game (the main reason you pick a carry in the first place). Now she actually has a niche in that she can provide insane right click damage early-mid game (so that is sustained damage) while synergizing with ranged gankers and heroes with ranged summons (Enigma, BM, Chen, Ench, etc.). With the global creep aura gone she is not a godly pusher anymore. It was a neat idea but can't be properly balanced with ease. Another factor involved is that she was slowly buffed over time. Just look up old changelogs, ever since 6.72 she got buffs in every major version, but until the remake of Marksmanship and Precision Aura she was still regarded as an "useless agility right click hero". To end this post, throughout DotA history pubbies have struggled to actually work together as a team and play the game the way it is meant to be played. A lot of pubstar heroes focus on quickly dispatching lone targets and feeding on them until they can overpower the enemy team even in small groups (2v5, 3v5). I hope she makes it into CM next version and will just shut up everyone that sais she is fine. A carryhero that gets ridiculous at lvl 6 is not "fine". She plays like Lina... Whiteout Manacosts/Cooldown at this stage of the game... If a target gets in range of you and you don't get immediatly forced back/stunned/wtfpwnd yourself it just dies. She has 0 escape or stuns, in competitive play she would get ganked repeatedly, I also hope she makes it in CM the next patch to prove people like you wrong Sure progamers would find other ways to abuse her potential beyond imagination. Like picking pure push lineup with lots of range summons and end the game around lvl12-14. If a hero achieves high win rates in pubs(pre-patch lycan), it will result perma ban most of the time in tourneys.
Yea, just like ursa.. Oh wait.
Yea, just like treant protector.. Oh wait.
And so on, win rate in pubs mean doesn't mean anything about how good a hero is for competitive usage.
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On December 17 2012 18:42 Narw wrote:I just played with erm, how to describe him. He had like 30 or 40 (well, 2 last pages in game history) games as SF played in row (disrupted by some Tiny or Axe once or twice, guess some asshole took his SF  ). You could think that he would have at least slight idea how to play that hero, right? Hehehe. Starting items, TP scroll, 6 tangos, set of wards. Feeded NS before nightime, feeded trying to gank. 46 mins in game he had BKB and 450 gold boots. 0-13-6 or something score.
Hey I played that guy ! He soon discovered his 6 tangos wouldn't help him vs I-get-all-the-runes-'cause-you-tower-hug Storm Spirit
I can only assume there's only one guy that opens SF that way :D
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Ursas Winrate in Pubs is 51.38%. Which isn't really that high + he grants 0 utility (well, easy early rosh if you want to coutn that).
Treant is an extremly bad pubhero and not picked in comp, i don't know why you would bring him up.
Drow has the highest Winrate of all Heroes, gets ridiculous early/mid damage for free, has a very strong aura (still), a silence (which is not the best skill in the game but still more than many other carries grant) and a slow.
While I actually agree with your statement that these stats not necessarily say much about the usage of a Hero in comp, both examples you provided where really terrible.
Lich, Zeus, PL would have been good examples for strong Pubheroes and AM or Templar Assassin good ones for horrible pubbers...
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On December 20 2012 01:57 Velr wrote:
Ursas Winrate in Pubs is 51.38%. Which isn't really that high + he grants 0 utility (well, easy early rosh if you want to coutn that).
Treant is an extremly bad pubhero and not picked in comp, i don't know why you would bring him up.
Drow has the highest Winrate of all Heroes, gets ridiculous early/mid damage for free, has a very strong aura (still), a silence (which is not the best skill in the game but still more than many other carries grant) and a slow.
While I actually agree with your statement that these stats not necessarily say much about the usage of a Hero in comp, both examples you provided where really terrible.
Lich, Zeus, PL would have been good examples for strong Pubheroes and AM or Templar Assassin good ones for horrible pubbers...
Ursa had a huge winrate (2nd) some time ago and wasn't picked. Tree had the highest winrate of all heroes some time ago and wasn't picked. They are weaker right now, but they are perfectly valid examples of pubstompers that were just not good at competitive games.
The main point is, the first argument about win rates in pubs used lycan and, from what I remember, both Ursa and Trent had higher win rates than him at the time.
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On December 20 2012 01:17 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 01:11 Laurens wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2012 23:46 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 22:49 akatama wrote:I don't want this to degenerate into flaming but if you don't believe me fire up WC3 and load a DotA version before her aura and ulti change and compare the damage. Her old aura granted 32% of base dmg so that is 6-7dmg(because it counted the 20 something base dmg too) + an extra 6% scaling compared to the current aura. Old ultimate granted 15/30/60 agility (please correct me) all the time, so in a teamfight having someone tanky stand in her face lowers the dmg even more. So by lvl 16 her current ultimate grants 80-60 = 20 extra agility in ideal conditions. 6 + 6% of her agility = 20 leads to her needing around 230 agility for her old self do do more damage. Considering by lvl 16 she has 115 agility from Marksmanship + agi growth + 1 point in stats she needs another 115. We can conclude that she has slightly more dmg now (14-15 dmg so she can counter the Doom armor buff ) at lvl 16 than before assuming no one stands near her in a teamfight. If that is the case, she deals less damage as to before. The issue with old Drow is that she brought slightly more single target dmg than other carries at the cost of burst while still lacking hard disables and having a worse late game (the main reason you pick a carry in the first place). Now she actually has a niche in that she can provide insane right click damage early-mid game (so that is sustained damage) while synergizing with ranged gankers and heroes with ranged summons (Enigma, BM, Chen, Ench, etc.). With the global creep aura gone she is not a godly pusher anymore. It was a neat idea but can't be properly balanced with ease. Another factor involved is that she was slowly buffed over time. Just look up old changelogs, ever since 6.72 she got buffs in every major version, but until the remake of Marksmanship and Precision Aura she was still regarded as an "useless agility right click hero". To end this post, throughout DotA history pubbies have struggled to actually work together as a team and play the game the way it is meant to be played. A lot of pubstar heroes focus on quickly dispatching lone targets and feeding on them until they can overpower the enemy team even in small groups (2v5, 3v5). I hope she makes it into CM next version and will just shut up everyone that sais she is fine. A carryhero that gets ridiculous at lvl 6 is not "fine". She plays like Lina... Whiteout Manacosts/Cooldown at this stage of the game... If a target gets in range of you and you don't get immediatly forced back/stunned/wtfpwnd yourself it just dies. She has 0 escape or stuns, in competitive play she would get ganked repeatedly, I also hope she makes it in CM the next patch to prove people like you wrong Sure progamers would find other ways to abuse her potential beyond imagination. Like picking pure push lineup with lots of range summons and end the game around lvl12-14. If a hero achieves high win rates in pubs(pre-patch lycan), it will result perma ban most of the time in tourneys.
This is why she's imbalanced atm. Her aura. Not her damage/ulti. She has always been a massive damage dealer, and she has always been a pubstomper (got 42-20 on her from before patch). Massive single target damage is her thing, but she needs (a) levels and (b) protection, and she can't have both, so she doesn't get picked in pro games. The threat she poses in pro games is in strats based around her aura, which makes her insanely strong with other ranged heroes in the early mid game. Hopefully after the nerf she'll still be strong enough to warrant picking her up. Realistically, apart from her aura, she's very easy to counter.
@Velr, you're underestimating what the other carries do get. Look at void. A great minibash, great evasion and a good escape, not to mention one of the best ultis in the game. Sven... cleave, hard aoe stun, insane armour buff. Most of the carries that get picked have similarly good abilities.
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On December 20 2012 01:57 Velr wrote:
Ursas Winrate in Pubs is 51.38%. Which isn't really that high + he grants 0 utility (well, easy early rosh if you want to coutn that).
Treant is an extremly bad pubhero and not picked in comp, i don't know why you would bring him up.
Drow has the highest Winrate of all Heroes, gets ridiculous early/mid damage for free, has a very strong aura (still), a silence (which is not the best skill in the game but still more than many other carries grant) and a slow.
While I actually agree with your statement that these stats not necessarily say much about the usage of a Hero in comp, both examples you provided where really terrible.
Lich, Zeus, PL would have been good examples for strong Pubheroes and AM or Templar Assassin good ones for horrible pubbers...
As already mentioned, ursa and treant used to have the two highest winrates in public games till treant was reworked and ursa was buffed, but ursa's buff only makes him more competitively viable whilst making him worse in pubs.
That's why i used them as examples, they used to both be at 57~% and 59~% win-rate respectively. Yet practically never used.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Played 2 games, first game enemy enigma afk's abandoned so it didnt get recorded for my 2nd Account's 200th game
Next game, we're super behind. I start rocketing as clockwerk to push lanes and then I get afk abandon
fml
atleast Dotabuff recorded it
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Just had a random draft where my team got drow undying and magnus in a row and then an enemy disconnected and abandoned immediately. QQ i didnt get to play that game.
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When you see a thread called "things valve could improve" and its mostly QQ.
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Single draft. I check teams. I'm by far the most experienced one on my team.
Draft comes up. Omniknight, Disruptor, Gyro.
Opposing highest gets TA...crap...
I'm totally shutting down their QoP mid. No courier until like 5 minutes in from me yelling for it. Huskar feeds about 6 early game kills. Treant apparently doing bugger all and Huskar yelling at him that he doesn't know how to use his third skill.
Pretty obvious how this is going, right?
In short: I'm now at a NINE game loss streak. I think the game is taking revenge on me for daring to go up to about 53% win rate.
Really hate this game. So, so much.
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On December 20 2012 04:49 Lightspeaker wrote:
Single draft. I check teams. I'm by far the most experienced one on my team.
Draft comes up. Omniknight, Disruptor, Gyro.
Opposing highest gets TA...crap...
I'm totally shutting down their QoP mid. No courier until like 5 minutes in from me yelling for it. Huskar feeds about 6 early game kills. Treant apparently doing bugger all and Huskar yelling at him that he doesn't know how to use his third skill.
Pretty obvious how this is going, right?
In short: I'm now at a NINE game loss streak. I think the game is taking revenge on me for daring to go up to about 53% win rate.
Really hate this game. So, so much.
time to take some time off yo
just come back another day and you'll have a better time
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What is with entire 4 person teams that just don't want to communicate at all?
Get a game on US East with no one speaking english, and I'm like..... can't coordinate ganking or anything, they don't respond to anything I ask etc.
So after about 10 minutes I'm like, start speaking in English or I'm feeding. No response for minutes. Fuck this not going to waste time trying in a game where they either can't or don't want to talk.
So after I have been feeding for a while, one person out of the group suddenly starts talking in long English sentences, basically expressing his rage and desire to report me.
Lol, fuck some games seriously. Played with too many 4 stack no english on US East to even consider trying in one.
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On December 20 2012 08:57 EtherealDeath wrote:
What is with entire 4 person teams that just don't want to communicate at all?
Get a game on US East with no one speaking english, and I'm like..... can't coordinate ganking or anything, they don't respond to anything I ask etc.
So after about 10 minutes I'm like, start speaking in English or I'm feeding. No response for minutes. Fuck this not going to waste time trying in a game where they either can't or don't want to talk.
So after I have been feeding for a while, one person out of the group suddenly starts talking in long English sentences, basically expressing his rage and desire to report me.
Lol, fuck some games seriously. Played with too many 4 stack no english on US East to even consider trying in one.
Ive run into a couple of these before. Basically I feel like they just stay in skype and communicate between themselves. And if a teamfight goes wrong, they all point the blame at you. Its a shitty feeling when ur with a 4-man stack and theyre still horrible.
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On December 20 2012 08:57 EtherealDeath wrote:
What is with entire 4 person teams that just don't want to communicate at all?
Get a game on US East with no one speaking english, and I'm like..... can't coordinate ganking or anything, they don't respond to anything I ask etc.
So after about 10 minutes I'm like, start speaking in English or I'm feeding. No response for minutes. Fuck this not going to waste time trying in a game where they either can't or don't want to talk.
So after I have been feeding for a while, one person out of the group suddenly starts talking in long English sentences, basically expressing his rage and desire to report me.
Lol, fuck some games seriously. Played with too many 4 stack no english on US East to even consider trying in one.
No matter what, if you fed you're an asshole. You don't want to play this game? Fine, just take your responsabilities and leave the game, you wont get in low priority for an abanbon.
Try to use chat wheel/ minimap ping, and anyway if you're soloquing you cannot expect top communication with your team so just try to do your best.
Feeding is not ok, ever.
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On December 20 2012 10:37 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 08:57 EtherealDeath wrote:
What is with entire 4 person teams that just don't want to communicate at all?
Get a game on US East with no one speaking english, and I'm like..... can't coordinate ganking or anything, they don't respond to anything I ask etc.
So after about 10 minutes I'm like, start speaking in English or I'm feeding. No response for minutes. Fuck this not going to waste time trying in a game where they either can't or don't want to talk.
So after I have been feeding for a while, one person out of the group suddenly starts talking in long English sentences, basically expressing his rage and desire to report me.
Lol, fuck some games seriously. Played with too many 4 stack no english on US East to even consider trying in one. No matter what, if you fed you're an asshole. You don't want to play this game? Fine, just take your responsabilities and leave the game, you wont get in low priority for an abanbon. Try to use chat wheel/ minimap ping, and anyway if you're soloquing you cannot expect top communication with your team so just try to do your best. Feeding is not ok, ever.
But abandon does get you low priority... I'm on a relatively new account cause I just started up dota 2 in the last few weeks, so there's not that many games on it.
And I did try pinging and shit, no response. And if they aren't even going to talk when I state I'm going to start feeding unless someone says something, then well, I guess I don't mind being an asshole to them. Not going to bother with a game where people don't respond to ganks or requests for ganks regardless of text or ping.
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On December 19 2012 22:11 pyro19 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 21:15 akatama wrote:On December 19 2012 20:28 Velr wrote:On December 19 2012 18:07 akatama wrote:On December 19 2012 17:35 DR.Ham wrote:On December 19 2012 02:04 StoRm_res wrote:
FUCK DROW!!!!!
Its stupid enough how op she is, not only that but you will face her in every single game. Seriously drives me crazy. This!!!! A million times this! Last game, they opposition had a drow picker, who thankfully was not very good, and after 20ish minutes, we were up 20 kills, 25k XP and 12k Gold. Could we finish them off? No. We push mid and lose our bottom rax to the creep wave. We push bot and lose top lane to the creep wave. Eventually we won, but it took 35 minutes longer (55 in total) with a huge advantage to cross the line. It felt like a marathon. I have already joined the dark side. Drow can be very fun, especially if you try fun builds. Dagon never fails to deliver. Yesterday: I random Viper against random Drow + Pudge mid. After ~5 minutes Pudge goes off roaming so it's 1on1 with me having a big headstart (Pudge goes on a 11-0 rampage because sideliners were pure trash and 0 wards were placed, he won the game, not drow).. But back on drow: I have more CS. I have better Items. I kill her when she's lvl 5 because she's dumb.. Or just knows that she is Drow and therefore can do whatever the fuck she wants and will end up stronger than any other hero anyway.. I am 3 (or almost 3) levels ahead. She gets lvl 6... She is now stronger than me and can kill me in 6-7 Hits, which is way faster before my Ult/Autoattacks can kill her. The game Ends and Drow is 0/3/3 (I killed her 2-3 times) and still the second strongest hero on the enemy team... In early/midgame.. As a fucking hardcarry. Totally and utterly retarded hero design. I have to repeat myself for the billionth time: Drow has HUGE SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE and not much else prior to this patch. The aura will be reverted to only buff creeps in a 900 AoE next update. So in the end you have a hero with huge single target dmg, an aoe silence to give her some teamfight utility and a good slow. Guess what? No stuns so you can just TP away. Or get Ghost Scepter. Think of her as a ranged Ursa. A ranged ursa with a silence , 60% slow and hits like a fucking truck just from auto attacks.And tping away doesnt help when she can 3-4 shot you before you can tp away
well at level 6 there's no way she have 60% slow (need at least level 7 to have all 4 level of Frost Arrow) but if she do that then she wont hit like a truck or silence you for 6 seconds.
Like any mid game carry, she start to get really strong at 16 where she max out all the spell, even this is rare since you would want to put a couple of points to stats also
her global aura is the only thing that's broken right now and with it being fix we will see her W/L drop
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I'm gonna QQ once again about Drow.
Despite the "nerf", this hero is really something else. No matter how far behind her farm is, as long as she's leveling up, she'll catch up due to her innate skills. No part of the game is she really weak, and the only way stop her for good is to have a 5-stack counter her directly.
Drow is a carry that doesn't need items to keep farming. It just frustrates me.
Even if you devote most of the early game ganking her with 2-3 heroes, it eventually snowballs because other lanes get pushed out or other heroes get levels, while we are all busy "delaying" the Drow.
It doesn't really matter because once she gets levels too, she'll farm back up no problem.
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I've only played terrible Drows since the patch. It's amazing.
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EPT
