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Please remember that while this thread is for QQ and venting about the game, racism is not tolerated here on LD. |
On November 28 2012 07:29 Haee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 18:47 Quotidian wrote:
meh.. just had the first encounter with a genuine smurf account. A guy with 0 wins and 0 battle points and no other games in his steam profile completely stomping. I fucking hate people.. SC2 ladder was ruined by it, and it seems like Dota2 will be the same. I don't think you can always presume the same of Dota 2 with sc2. Sure it's genuinely easy for people to make smurf accounts but the skill sets you gain whether you played the original DotA or HoN are identical, so chances are that some have a decent grasp of the game beforehand without playing it.
this was beyond "decent" grasp of the game.. way, way beyond. Even a "new" player from Dota or HoN would have some hitches and tells in their gameplay that they're new to Dota2. This person had none of this. And he was on invoker, quickly changing spells. The person was a smurfing, no-life piece of shit, no doubt about it.
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oh god I just played so badly
so fucking badly
one day of playing great, on top of everything
then the next bzzzt feeding like a pro
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On November 29 2012 00:46 Sn0_Man wrote:My QQ now: what the fuck kind of terrible hero is warlock and why does he still exist?  . All his skills are terribad unless you are miles ahead in game anyways. His ulti has way too long cooldown, and feeds the enemy team too much gold. And the golem needs to be much faster. And he needs a better cast animation. And his heal needs longer range. Etc
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Fatal Bonds good for harrass (mana expensive). Shadow Word is ok. Maxed Upheaval is awesome for preventing your opponents from getting away (though its pretty bad early on). Chaotic Offering I've found to be really helpful for initiation (damage AND stun AND summons one or two golems to distract your opponents whilst the rest of your team jumps in).
Ok, only two games (I play SD/RD) but personally my reaction was "wow, this guy is a bit overpowered for pub use".
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Fatal Bonds is fine harass, sure, but it also pushes the lane (sharing creep damage around) and is super mana heavy for really not much harass until you have it at least level 2~3. It is your main damage source mid-late game, but it is completely reliant on a) the opponents grouping like morons , b) not having BKBs, c) not having millions of creeps nearby, and d) your allies dishing out a metric ton of damage to their team. At least it has a decent cast range.
Shadow word is his bread and butter IMO early, but it gets outclasses SO FAST because of how long it takes for the effect to happen, and because it is completely single-target and has a longish cooldown. It does almost nothing past 30 mins, really not much past 20. Plus it has terrible cast range and suffers from his awful cast animation too.
His slow is a decent ability late sure, but it is channeling (booo), doesn't go through BKB, does no damage, has bad cast range (although huge AOE), etc. You will never channel this very long on any relevant target, and it just asks for you to get wrecked.
His ulti, then, is his "main draw". The only problem is it does negligable damage at all levels (blocked by BKB even), is a very short stun, and the golem is super slow and feeds the enemy gold very easily. Sure, it has some uses, but the cooldown is forever (over 2 mins at all levels) and the manacost goes up in return for only a slightly better still useless golem.
All of these abilities are fine when you are ahead, but do absolutely nothing when you are behind. Sure, the heal is great in lane, and you should likely win many lanes with him, but he has no stun, no slow (in lane), and is pretty squishy so he isn't even like a "free win" in lane. Late game, you have to hope that a 1-second stun with 100 damage attached is enough to justify fighting basically 4v5 all the time...
Also, his farming is pretty bad, since the best you can do is Bonds a creep wave and hope to pick up an extra lasthit or 2 from it... :/
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I took a lot of shit over the years, specially as terran in sc2. but lately, my god, the amount of random bm ive seen on pubs, makes my lose more faith in humanity as usual on the internet, sigh..
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I think i have like 14-3 with WL or something. Play him as lane support and force teamfights, then push towers. Everytime i see someone use golem just to get tower down it hurts my brain. Fun hero if your team is winning, nightmare to play if you for some reason lose teamfights.
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On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight.
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I just played with a Bloodseeker, who, at level 20 and 50 minutes in to the game has the following items: Force Staff, Phase Boots and A LEVEL 4 DAGON
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On November 29 2012 04:27 Dexington wrote:
I just played with a Bloodseeker, who, at level 20 and 50 minutes in to the game has the following items: Force Staff, Phase Boots and A LEVEL 4 DAGON
For healing in teamfights 
Realistically, if you are 50 minutes into the game and you have a bloodseeker there is a pretty good chance you aren't winning anyway.
Question: What do you do when your solo mid batrider is the lowest level on your team 10 minutes in to the game? How is it even possible, its not like he ganked or got ganked...
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On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight.
Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy.
Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes.
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On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes.
o.O
Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here:
Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5.
Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds).
Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero.
Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least).
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On November 29 2012 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes. o.O Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here: Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5. Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds). Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero. Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least).
You're right, he wont be able to wipe an entire team by himself. In fact, he will lose most 1 on 1 fights in the game. There are better summons than the golem, better damage than fatal bonds, and better nukes than shadow word. The key though, is that warlock isn't there to lay out the damage, he's there to support the carries actually doing damage. He has the ability to play safe and still be effective, making him viable in 5th position.
The golem is effectively a mini-pudge worth of dps, and similar on the target priority list. fatal bonds and shadow word have decent range so that you can lay them safely and gtfo before getting caught, and upheavel gives you an effective way to control a zone during end game teamfights, making pushing possible even after golems lose their effectiveness.
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On November 29 2012 05:09 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes. o.O Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here: Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5. Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds). Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero. Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least). You're right, he wont be able to wipe an entire team by himself. In fact, he will lose most 1 on 1 fights in the game. There are better summons than the golem, better damage than fatal bonds, and better nukes than shadow word. The key though, is that warlock isn't there to lay out the damage, he's there to support the carries actually doing damage. He has the ability to play safe and still be effective, making him viable in 5th position. The golem is effectively a mini-pudge worth of dps, and similar on the target priority list. fatal bonds and shadow word have decent range so that you can lay them safely and gtfo before getting caught, and upheavel gives you an effective way to control a zone during end game teamfights, making pushing possible even after golems lose their effectiveness.
Shadow word has terrible range, and the golem turns enemy diffusal blades into a hand of midas. Upheaval is like CM ulti, only it does no damage... which is the main draw of CM ulti (an ability that isn't always even levelled).
I mean, yes, he does stuff, just not enough stuff. To be honest, if you go within 800 range of enemy heroes to get off a fatal bonds, you should be dead (post 30 mins). Especially since his cast point is terrible (.5 Seconds) so you just kinda stand there while casting. Unless you ult first. But then the fatal bonds isn't doing much because you already did all the damage you have. The hero is like, super situational and then not even as good as, say, enigma in the situations he is "good" in.
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On November 29 2012 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes. o.O Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here: Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5. Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds). Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero. Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least).
I find it odd that your "absolute best case scenario" makes no mention of the other four heroes on your team.
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On November 29 2012 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes. o.O Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here: Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5. Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds). Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero. Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least).
So what you're saying is a 5th position support can't 1v5 the enemy team? No wai!
Come on man, listen to yourself. A Warlock trying to solo the entire enemy team is a dumb Warlock. Fatal Bonds is great early game as lane harassment, and tacks on a bit of extra damage in the late game. The dot/heal doesn't scale particularly well, but has its uses. Upheaval has amazing zoning potential, especially against melee carries, not sure what your issue is with this skill. If you've already dropped your Golem and cast Fatal Bonds, you have nothing else to do anyways, so channel away.
He's not as strong as a lot of other supports, which is why we never see him in competitive play, but he isn't a bad hero. A ward bitch is a ward bitch, and he can contribute to teamfights in his own way.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
It's funny because he actually used to be a top pick in competitive Dota around the 6.43c era. All purely for his ult.
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Oh god, Warlock has been non-stop buffed since 6.70 (Dota2wiki doesn't have changelogs from before that).
He used to have: 1 less tick of shadow word, 5 less heal/dmg per tick, 4 seconds longer cooldown on shadow word, 1 less link on fatal bonds, 15% link damage (now 20), 200 less cast range on fatal bonds, 10 less DPS golem immolation, 25 less golem attack damage, AND worse flaming fists passive. Plus, he used to have longer CD on upheaval and worse aghanims golems.
I really want to know what his ult was in 6.4X. 1 Second stun and 100 damage can't possible make a top pick.
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Warlock isn't picked now for several reasons:
1. His Heal and Fatal bonds skills are very high in mana cost.
2. He is really mana-inefficient, and as result, is a bit farm-dependent early-game to get up a soul-ring or mana boots. The metagame right now is sort of moving towards supports that are not very item/farm dependent, and have efficient mana costs.
3. His 3rd skill is useless.
4. He doesn't offer an efficient stun or decent slow to contribute to a tri-lane. (3rd skill does not count, as it has to be channeled).
I'm wondering if they just changed his 3rd skill from a channel to just a one-time cast onto the ground type effect to slow everyone (like enigmas 3rd skill midnight pulse) if that would make him more popular (or if that would be too imbalanced).
Midnight pulse isn't channeled, you just throw it down.. So I dunno why warlocks 3rd skill has to be a channeling spell.
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On November 29 2012 06:22 Enzymatic wrote:
Warlock isn't picked now for several reasons:
1. His Heal and Fatal bonds skills are very high in mana cost.
2. He is really mana-inefficient, and as result, is a bit farm-dependent early-game to get up a soul-ring or mana boots. The metagame right now is sort of moving towards supports that are not very item/farm dependent, and have efficient mana costs.
3. His 3rd skill is useless.
4. He doesn't offer an efficient stun or decent slow to contribute to a tri-lane. (3rd skill does not count, as it has to be channeled).
I'm wondering if they just changed his 3rd skill from a channel to just a one-time cast onto the ground type effect to slow everyone (like enigmas 3rd skill midnight pulse) if that would make him more popular (or if that would be too imbalanced).
Midnight pulse isn't channeled, you just throw it down.. So I dunno why warlocks 3rd skill has to be a channeling spell.
If I can recall the discussion correctly, back when it was leveled 21-25, they chose to buff it such that if you stepped out of it, you were still slow for 3 more seconds instead of making it not channeled. This was to improve its late game utility without making warlock a crazy 90% aoe slow powerhouse.
As far as his viability, he's an all-around 5th position support, which makes him a tasty pick for pubs. One trick ponies are fantastic in team play, but just dont work out in pubs if your team isn't on the same page.
EDIT: Back to QQ, I have had family in town all week, so I haven't even been able to get to rage at stupid noobs yet this week. meta-QQ.
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On November 29 2012 05:09 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2012 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 29 2012 04:33 itsthewoo wrote:On November 29 2012 03:49 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:On November 29 2012 01:36 Lightspeaker wrote:
I've played Warlock support a couple of times recently and tend to absolutely destroy people. >_>
Warlock support can be legit. He only has one move that requires positioning, so you can play him way back and spend your $ on things like mek and euls instead of a blink dagger or force staff. Even in 5 man teams, he can have his place, because of his relatively strong ranged auto attack and big heal he makes a good lane mate for squishy carries. Plus, his ult, though large CD and small stun, also pushes the lane after the team fight. Not to mention that he has a good amount of self-synergy. Fatal bonds -> Rain of Chaos -> Upheaval = pretty good DPS on any grouping of enemy heroes. o.O Okay so, lets imagine some absolute best case scenarios here: Step 1: They are circlejerking together nowhere near creeps, fatal bonds hits all 5. Step 2: Your ulti goes off fine (this is actually very easy to achieve, I'm not disputing that). You just did 200 Magic damage to each opponent, so they all lost 150 HP (factoring in fatal bonds). Step 3: None of them have a silence, a stun/ministun, a BKB, or any kind of mobility skill. They have no autoattacks to kill your golem and are secretly just passive bots. Congrats, you are now doing 60-100 magic DPS immolation (assuming the immolate hits all with fatal bonds), plus have a really slow golem whacking at them (admittedly it hits pretty hard). Your average squishy hero (with 1K HP only) dies ~10 seconds later. #Synergy. Conveniently, if they refuse to move due to being dropped as babies, they start to become slowed. This slow is reliant on you being within autoattack range of any ranged hero. Conclusion: if your opponents lack the basic mental functions of chimpanzees, warlock might be able to kill them, eventually. Otherwise, you are completely reliant on your team, since your hero adds up to: a 1 second stun (near global, at least). You're right, he wont be able to wipe an entire team by himself. In fact, he will lose most 1 on 1 fights in the game. There are better summons than the golem, better damage than fatal bonds, and better nukes than shadow word. The key though, is that warlock isn't there to lay out the damage, he's there to support the carries actually doing damage. He has the ability to play safe and still be effective, making him viable in 5th position. The golem is effectively a mini-pudge worth of dps, and similar on the target priority list. fatal bonds and shadow word have decent range so that you can lay them safely and gtfo before getting caught, and upheavel gives you an effective way to control a zone during end game teamfights, making pushing possible even after golems lose their effectiveness.
there is also the comedy "aganhim's refresher" option for the luls
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EPT
