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On June 20 2011 20:16 S.O.U.L wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 20:07 Az0r_au wrote:On June 20 2011 20:01 Madoga wrote:On June 20 2011 19:42 LuckyLuke43 wrote:It really amazes me, that in 2011, people still think there's no difference between 30fps and 60fps, and even up to 100fps. Also people seem to think that if your monitor runs on 60Hz, it can't feed you with more than 60fps effectively. Get educated people... www.justfuckinggoogleit.com peace. Uhmn.... 60 hz means that the screen refreshes 60 times a sec, so it cant show more than 60 fps. V-sync links the fps to the hz of your monitor. If you turn it off your videocard will just churn out a useless high fps and it causes texture tearing, so I dont see a reason for disabling it. Some games mouse movement is affected by vsync. actually i think not, cause i ahve been playing lots of games with v-sync on and off, but there was no change in how smooth the game runs and mouse movement! so theres really no point of going higher than 60 and theres no point of turning off the v-sync it wont help! cause bigger numbers dont always mean better!
Actually, V-sync can and does cause mouse lag in some games, in some circumstances. This is just a straight up fact. In the Steam game Killing Floor, I get something like a quarter of a second of mouse input lag if I'm in fullscreen and V-synced. I have to play in Windowed mode to get rid of it. (I vsync because frankly, 300 FPS is stupid, and my display is 60hz, and unlike the OP, I'm aware that that's a hardware limitation.)
The real problem with Vsync is that if your PC can't handle a guaranteed constant 60 FPS, any time it dips, it's guaranteed to dip a LOT to maintain being a fraction of your refresh rate, which causes hugely noticeable sudden changes.
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Many uninformed responses in this thread, please dont post stupid shit in the tech support forums, there is little point in replying if you are going to come up with something stupid like 'it doesnt matter cus your monitor is only 60hz so you wont see a difference'. That is both stupid, and wrong.
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Only reason to run over 60 fps(unless your screen is 100Hz) is to jerk off at high numbers.
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On June 20 2011 22:22 fiskrens wrote:
Only reason to run over 60 fps(unless your screen is 100Hz) is to jerk off at high numbers.
totally agreed!
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This isn't intended as trolling, so please bare with me.
Too much "I played this game at that setting and it was perfectly fine", "humans can't differentiate between 24 or 100 fps", "Hollywood says this and that" in this thread. In other words, trying to explain something technical by way of subjective impressions gathered over time (even falsely information repeated enough for you to think it's true, aka myths).
The OP is asking a specific question. Why not answer that or move on, if all you want to discuss or argue is myths?
Any arguments, to something as technical as how the human eye and sensor system works, with subjective thoughts, are almost to be considered spam.
Reasoning, backed up with proper facts makes for a much better discussion, but in this thread it becomes off topic.
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On June 20 2011 22:08 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 20:16 S.O.U.L wrote:On June 20 2011 20:07 Az0r_au wrote:On June 20 2011 20:01 Madoga wrote:On June 20 2011 19:42 LuckyLuke43 wrote:It really amazes me, that in 2011, people still think there's no difference between 30fps and 60fps, and even up to 100fps. Also people seem to think that if your monitor runs on 60Hz, it can't feed you with more than 60fps effectively. Get educated people... www.justfuckinggoogleit.com peace. Uhmn.... 60 hz means that the screen refreshes 60 times a sec, so it cant show more than 60 fps. V-sync links the fps to the hz of your monitor. If you turn it off your videocard will just churn out a useless high fps and it causes texture tearing, so I dont see a reason for disabling it. Some games mouse movement is affected by vsync. actually i think not, cause i ahve been playing lots of games with v-sync on and off, but there was no change in how smooth the game runs and mouse movement! so theres really no point of going higher than 60 and theres no point of turning off the v-sync it wont help! cause bigger numbers dont always mean better! Actually, V-sync can and does cause mouse lag in some games, in some circumstances. This is just a straight up fact. In the Steam game Killing Floor, I get something like a quarter of a second of mouse input lag if I'm in fullscreen and V-synced. I have to play in Windowed mode to get rid of it. (I vsync because frankly, 300 FPS is stupid, and my display is 60hz, and unlike the OP, I'm aware that that's a hardware limitation.) The real problem with Vsync is that if your PC can't handle a guaranteed constant 60 FPS, any time it dips, it's guaranteed to dip a LOT to maintain being a fraction of your refresh rate, which causes hugely noticeable sudden changes.
sorry if this counts as a DP!
i didnt know that, but there is really no point turning it off for SC2, this guy is just trolling i think! cause cmon whats the point of having 100 fps instead of 60fps, in real life you wont even see the difference, and if you have a 60khz montior theres no point of that!
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On June 20 2011 22:25 S.O.U.L wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 22:08 JingleHell wrote:On June 20 2011 20:16 S.O.U.L wrote:On June 20 2011 20:07 Az0r_au wrote:On June 20 2011 20:01 Madoga wrote:On June 20 2011 19:42 LuckyLuke43 wrote:It really amazes me, that in 2011, people still think there's no difference between 30fps and 60fps, and even up to 100fps. Also people seem to think that if your monitor runs on 60Hz, it can't feed you with more than 60fps effectively. Get educated people... www.justfuckinggoogleit.com peace. Uhmn.... 60 hz means that the screen refreshes 60 times a sec, so it cant show more than 60 fps. V-sync links the fps to the hz of your monitor. If you turn it off your videocard will just churn out a useless high fps and it causes texture tearing, so I dont see a reason for disabling it. Some games mouse movement is affected by vsync. actually i think not, cause i ahve been playing lots of games with v-sync on and off, but there was no change in how smooth the game runs and mouse movement! so theres really no point of going higher than 60 and theres no point of turning off the v-sync it wont help! cause bigger numbers dont always mean better! Actually, V-sync can and does cause mouse lag in some games, in some circumstances. This is just a straight up fact. In the Steam game Killing Floor, I get something like a quarter of a second of mouse input lag if I'm in fullscreen and V-synced. I have to play in Windowed mode to get rid of it. (I vsync because frankly, 300 FPS is stupid, and my display is 60hz, and unlike the OP, I'm aware that that's a hardware limitation.) The real problem with Vsync is that if your PC can't handle a guaranteed constant 60 FPS, any time it dips, it's guaranteed to dip a LOT to maintain being a fraction of your refresh rate, which causes hugely noticeable sudden changes. sorry if this counts as a DP! i didnt know that, but there is really no point turning it off for SC2, this guy is just trolling i think! cause cmon whats the point of having 100 fps instead of 60fps, in real life you wont even see the difference, and if you have a 60khz montior theres no point of that!
Please stop saying khz related to monitors. That's Kilohertz, or thousand cycles per second. Hertz is cycles per second. 60hz means the monitor refreshes 60 times in a second. Like I said, I don't care if the OP knows the difference, and I pointed out at least one reason Vsync can cause a subjective impression of bad framerates.
OP isn't trolling though, it's just a placebo affect. If that makes him feel better about his play, that can make him play better, so I guess it's kind of two placebo affects backing each other up. Either way, arguing with him about how he plays in tech support is stupid, and since there's several perfectly legit reasons to not want Vsync on, or a cap, who cares?
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On June 20 2011 22:25 S.O.U.L wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 22:08 JingleHell wrote:On June 20 2011 20:16 S.O.U.L wrote:On June 20 2011 20:07 Az0r_au wrote:On June 20 2011 20:01 Madoga wrote:On June 20 2011 19:42 LuckyLuke43 wrote:It really amazes me, that in 2011, people still think there's no difference between 30fps and 60fps, and even up to 100fps. Also people seem to think that if your monitor runs on 60Hz, it can't feed you with more than 60fps effectively. Get educated people... www.justfuckinggoogleit.com peace. Uhmn.... 60 hz means that the screen refreshes 60 times a sec, so it cant show more than 60 fps. V-sync links the fps to the hz of your monitor. If you turn it off your videocard will just churn out a useless high fps and it causes texture tearing, so I dont see a reason for disabling it. Some games mouse movement is affected by vsync. actually i think not, cause i ahve been playing lots of games with v-sync on and off, but there was no change in how smooth the game runs and mouse movement! so theres really no point of going higher than 60 and theres no point of turning off the v-sync it wont help! cause bigger numbers dont always mean better! Actually, V-sync can and does cause mouse lag in some games, in some circumstances. This is just a straight up fact. In the Steam game Killing Floor, I get something like a quarter of a second of mouse input lag if I'm in fullscreen and V-synced. I have to play in Windowed mode to get rid of it. (I vsync because frankly, 300 FPS is stupid, and my display is 60hz, and unlike the OP, I'm aware that that's a hardware limitation.) The real problem with Vsync is that if your PC can't handle a guaranteed constant 60 FPS, any time it dips, it's guaranteed to dip a LOT to maintain being a fraction of your refresh rate, which causes hugely noticeable sudden changes. sorry if this counts as a DP! i didnt know that, but there is really no point turning it off for SC2, this guy is just trolling i think! cause cmon whats the point of having 100 fps instead of 60fps, in real life you wont even see the difference, and if you have a 60khz montior theres no point of that!
Stop posting, vsync causes input lag in a lot of systems, just because you havnt noticed any, doesnt mean you are right.
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I don't think anyone really cares(there might be a select few...) but since he gave no explanation in the OP of why he actually needs more than 60 fps and didn't give any signs that he actually had issues playing at 60 fps besides from complaining about it being too low, I believe it's fine to tell him that it's going to be pointless having your graphics card work its ass off for nothing.
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I'm gonna start banning people from posting in tech support if they keep on spouting misinformation. Please don't post unless you understand the topic you're talking about. At the very minimum you should have read and understood this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794/2
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On June 20 2011 18:58 S.O.U.L wrote:
well as always, theres just one thing to say, whats the point of going higher? human eye can see only 30fps, so 60 is even double that, so you dont see any lag, and that you have more wont make you a better player or make youre game run smoother!
but if you really want to get higher, just fownload refreshlock and force youre monitor to 100khz to get 100fps!
Biggest BS i've heard, no, you are blind if you can't tell the difference between 30 and 60fps.
Also, monitor with 60hz wont make your fraps fps show as 60.
By your theory, forcing your monitor to 100khz should get you 100000fps?
You tried updating your display driver?
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There are indeed so much trolling in this thread. A lot of people don't understand how computers work..
Don't you guys understand that even if I don't feel differences between 60 FPS and 400 FPS, it's like using a Benchmark for my new computer to see how "good" the game runs. If you are closer to 60, it means your computer barely runs the game perfectly BUT if you are waaaaaaaay beyond, it's good to know you can run higher games, future SC2 Expansions if Blizzard decides to upgrade/improve game engine, etc etc...
Anyways, the problem is fixed thanks to DarKcS, and people still like to troll. If a mod see this post, you can close my thread if you want to. 
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On June 20 2011 22:42 ShadeOfDraG wrote:There are indeed so much trolling in this thread. A lot of people don't understand how computers work.. Don't you guys understand that even if I don't feel differences between 60 FPS and 400 FPS, it's like using a Benchmark for my new computer to see how "good" the game runs. If you are closer to 60, it means your computer barely runs the game perfectly BUT if you are waaaaaaaay beyond, it's good to know you can run higher games, future SC2 Expansions if Blizzard decides to upgrade/improve game engine, etc etc... Anyways, the problem is fixed thanks to DarKcS, and people still like to troll. If a mod see this post, you can close my thread.
If you want to benchmark, maybe you should check out the trial edition of Futuremarks 3DMark11?
It's kind of a standard in benchmarking, and will let you compare directly to other PCs.
On June 20 2011 22:38 R1CH wrote:I'm gonna start banning people from posting in tech support if they keep on spouting misinformation. Please don't post unless you understand the topic you're talking about. At the very minimum you should have read and understood this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794/2
If you do that, do I get my report button back, since that's what I lost it for reporting?
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On June 20 2011 18:58 S.O.U.L wrote:
well as always, theres just one thing to say, whats the point of going higher? human eye can see only 30fps, so 60 is even double that, so you dont see any lag, and that you have more wont make you a better player or make youre game run smoother!
but if you really want to get higher, just fownload refreshlock and force youre monitor to 100khz to get 100fps!
That's wrong, The typical human eye can see over 60 FPS, but usually not past 80 (this varies from person to person). Take an old CRT monitor and compare 60 Hz to 85 Hz. For perfect glossy-smooth video game animation, you won't see it at 60 Hz unless maybe you have really bad eyes. "Refresh" for the eye gets slower with age.
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Have you possibly flashed your video card bios recently? the only thing I'm thinking is the bios isnt taking the driver's v-sync setting properly and syncing anyway.
Just to confirm... This is with all games? Or just starcraft?
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The question is why you would ever like to go beyond refresh-rate...
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On June 21 2011 00:06 cocosoft wrote:
The question is why you would ever like to go beyond refresh-rate...
1) That is irrelevant... The PC seems to be not functioning the way the user wants. It doesn't matter why he wants it that way. He does.
2) Sometimes these types of issue can mean there is an underlying issue that can effect the system in other ways negatively that he/she has not come across yet. It is always good practice to fix issue like this to ensure the best possible experience with your system.
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50Hz is the bare minimum for a typical refresh rate on CRT monitors / TV's (the eu/PAL standard)..
On LCD it doesn't work the same way because pixels can be constantly 'on' and don't always need to be refreshed, but this is beside the point.
Now because any refreshrate below 50Hz will look like a stroboscope to the human eye implies you can see above 30fps. Hence for a game to feel '100%' smooth it has to at least be able to run at 50fps, preferably higher. Higher means it's more likely to handle frameratedrops when things get busy on screen.
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This might be only for FPS games or something, but everywhere I've read says the ideal FPS max you want is (refresh rate)x2+1. So that's 121 for most people. I'm not sure the reasoning behind this though or if it's just game specific.
I've read about this on TF2 forums.
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On June 20 2011 20:30 Madoga wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 20:07 Az0r_au wrote:On June 20 2011 20:01 Madoga wrote:On June 20 2011 19:42 LuckyLuke43 wrote:It really amazes me, that in 2011, people still think there's no difference between 30fps and 60fps, and even up to 100fps. Also people seem to think that if your monitor runs on 60Hz, it can't feed you with more than 60fps effectively. Get educated people... www.justfuckinggoogleit.com peace. Uhmn.... 60 hz means that the screen refreshes 60 times a sec, so it cant show more than 60 fps. V-sync links the fps to the hz of your monitor. If you turn it off your videocard will just churn out a useless high fps and it causes texture tearing, so I dont see a reason for disabling it. Some games mouse movement is affected by vsync. Yea, some people have that problem, I never really had that problem, so I didnt really think of it. Still I'd like to know why OP wants 60+ fps on a 60 hz monitor. Specially since they implemented the max fps in sc2 cus the game was melting gpu's. So I dont think its wise to remove the max fps.
Vsync adds "mouse lag" (actually visual lag which results in input feeling laggy) due to the way it works. You might not feel it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there... it's the reason why no professional FPS player has it on in any FPS game. Vsync might fix tearing but it has it's own disadvantages, like needing to cut the framerate by a divisor if it drops below a set number, based on the monitor's refresh rate, and also the perceived input delay.
Triple buffering is great, but uses even more GPU memory and there is still mouse lag.
I honestly find it difficult to notice screen tearing in SC2 as opposed to FPS games, so I leave it off. Input lag is also something I can't really tolerate.
On June 20 2011 22:22 deanyo wrote:
Many uninformed responses in this thread, please dont post stupid shit in the tech support forums, there is little point in replying if you are going to come up with something stupid like 'it doesnt matter cus your monitor is only 60hz so you wont see a difference'. That is both stupid, and wrong.
No, it's correct. That is why 120hz monitors are becoming much more popular, because you can actually see 120 FPS effective now. In many games having higher FPS than your monitor's refresh rate is still useful and can make the game "feel" better (psychological perhaps), but you're still only seeing 60 frames per second. E.g. in Source Engine games (I'm not sure if it's been changed recently) the amount of data sent / received per second was capped by your FPS and also the cl_cmdrate, cl_updaterate, rate commands. In CS, higher framerate also increased the rate at which your crosshairs tightened after shooting (just the animation obviously). In Quake, I believe certain FPS numbers let you jump farther than other players. In SC2, your marines aren't going to shoot faster because you have different FPS than someone else.
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EPT
