• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:59
CEST 14:59
KST 21:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare12Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar15[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Unyielding3Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025)17[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Rejuvenation8
Community News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025)4$1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th]4Clem wins PiG Sty Festival #66Weekly Cups (April 28-May 4): ByuN & Astrea break through1Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game29
StarCraft 2
General
How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025) Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar
Tourneys
SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group A INu's Battles#12 < ByuN vs herO > [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group B
Strategy
[G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed Mutation # 470 Certain Demise Mutation # 469 Frostbite
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games Preserving Battlereports.com OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24
Tourneys
[BSL20] RO32 Group E - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO32 Group F - Saturday 20:00 CET [ASL19] Ro8 Day 4 [CSLPRO] $1000 Spring is Here!
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Nintendo Switch Thread Grand Theft Auto VI Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc.
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey Surprisingly good films/Hidden Gems
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
BLinD-RawR 50K Post Watch Party The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Why 5v5 Games Keep Us Hooked…
TrAiDoS
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
BW PvZ Balance hypothetic…
Vasoline73
Test Entry for subject
xumakis
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 13013 users

How much difference do mouse pads make?

Forum Index > Tech Support
Post a Reply
Normal
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
March 23 2011 00:34 GMT
#1
I have a decent mouse by my reckoning (Razer Death Adder) and I have no trouble with quick movements and dont really encounter any problems in game (that I can tell). However, I notice just moving my mouse cursor slowly on the desktop that it tends to jump rather than glide smoothly. Particularly in diagonal directions.

I dont use a mousepad and my actual question is how much difference do they make? Is this skipping of my cursor due to not having a decent surface to track on?
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
sixdrumquads
Profile Joined January 2011
United States51 Posts
March 23 2011 00:52 GMT
#2
if your mouse has a track ball a mouse pads even and level surface should holy a lot because they give consant friction to the track ball.
Crushgroove
Profile Joined July 2010
United States793 Posts
March 23 2011 01:03 GMT
#3
A huuuuuuuuuuge difference. Playing with a 5600 dpi mouse on a soft pad is silly... the weight of your hand on the mouse-mat actually effects the mouse precision. If you're using a good enough pad, you're mouse can detect people's footsteps in the room on max sensitivity.

If your pad is slippery, or small, or too soft, or not textured enough, all of them can have an effect on mouse performance.

If you invest in a top of the line gaming mouse, its a waste without getting a decent pad too.
[In Korea on Vaca] "Why would I go to the park and climb a mountain? There are video games on f*cking TV!" - Kazuke
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:19:17
March 23 2011 01:18 GMT
#4
@sixdrumquads not a track ball mouse but thanks anyway (This is mine: Razer DeathAdder)

Cool that was what I was hoping because it's an easy fix that is I can just buy one.

What do you recommend as a good mousepad? Maybe with a best cost:quality focus?
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:41:32
March 23 2011 01:19 GMT
#5
Well unless you have superduper maxsensitivity you won´t detect peoples footsteps, I´d wager.
That also depends on your floor.

If you have a cheap mouse a mousepad won´t do anything. If you have a decent mouse (40 €), you should get a mousepad. Normally tables are crap, you should at least use rough paper.

The question should actually be "Does your mouse to pc transmission feel erratic?" For example
a movement of your doesn´t always move the cursor the same ratio of screen, or
it is sometimes harder to move the mouse than at other times
than a mousepad will improve your mosuecontrol greatly.
If it doesn´t, you either got a very shitty pad or your mouse is broken/bad.

[edit]seeing your response now:
You´re mouse is obviously decent.
You should imho try surfaces in your household first, like newspaper(rougher), magazine(normally slick cover), maybe other flat things I don´t know english names for.
That´s what I did. And then I got a mousepad that´s like the furface I liked most(newspaper, so soft and rough).

In general slick pads are the most precise but also need to be cleaned the most.(Or so they say)
If you take soft ones, they are supposedly not that precise, but also need lot less cleaning.(I never cleaned mine for nearly a year and I didn´t notice a difference)

Imho since half the time my wrist rests on the mousepad the comfort was important to me.
Make of that what you want, but don´t buy into the hype of "better mousepad=>much better mousecontrol" The differences from mousepad to mousepad are minor in comparison to mousepad to table.

Just my 2 cents
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:26:23
March 23 2011 01:25 GMT
#6
On March 23 2011 10:19 Mataza wrote:
Well unless you have superduper maxsensitivity you won´t detect peoples footsteps, I´d wager.
That also depends on your floor.

If you have a cheap mouse a mousepad won´t do anything. If you have a decent mouse (40 €), you should get a mousepad. Normally tables are crap, you should at least use rough paper.

The question should actually be "Does your mouse to pc transmission feel erratic?" For example
a movement of your doesn´t always move the cursor the same ratio of screen, or
it is sometimes harder to move the mouse than at other times
than a mousepad will improve your mosuecontrol greatly.
If it doesn´t, you either got a very shitty pad or your mouse is broken/bad.



Lol i dont thnk picking up footsteps will result in a direct improvement in my starcraft game. So im not too worried about that level of performance.

As per my understanding I do have a decent mouse, it sounds like I do need a decent mousepad. Currently I am using nothing and my desk is shitty particleboard.

So any recommendations of mousepads? Or what to look for in a mousepad?
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
Greek820
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada210 Posts
March 23 2011 01:25 GMT
#7
hey, i have a death adder too, i use to have a plain black mouse pad, then i got a razer goliathus control, feels a lot different and a lot better, i recommend it ;D
(>^.^)>~~~ Phenom ii x4 955, Gigabyte 6850, g.skill 4gb ripjaws, GA-880GA mobo, corsair cx500w, storm scout, WD 500gb blue
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 23 2011 01:28 GMT
#8
Razer Vespula is a tad pricey, at $35, but the wrist wrest is the best wrist wrest I've used while mousing. (These aren't to everyone's taste.)

The smoother of the two surfaces is incredible, especially with low friction mouse feet, for a super smooth glide, so that the vast majority of what slows your hand down is the weight of the mouse.

It's also designed for high-precision mice, so it won't make your movements twitch.
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:33:47
March 23 2011 01:32 GMT
#9
On March 23 2011 10:25 bflip wrote:
hey, i have a death adder too, i use to have a plain black mouse pad, then i got a razer goliathus control, feels a lot different and a lot better, i recommend it ;D


That one looks pretty good, and you have the same mouse so I can trust you ;p Which size do you have?
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:34:30
March 23 2011 01:33 GMT
#10
On March 23 2011 10:28 JingleHell wrote:
Razer Vespula is a tad pricey, at $35, but the wrist wrest is the best wrist wrest I've used while mousing. (These aren't to everyone's taste.)

The smoother of the two surfaces is incredible, especially with low friction mouse feet, for a super smooth glide, so that the vast majority of what slows your hand down is the weight of the mouse.

It's also designed for high-precision mice, so it won't make your movements twitch.


It looks sweet but I would have to try a wrist rest for a while before I bought that in case I found it annoying/obtrusive.
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
Greek820
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada210 Posts
March 23 2011 01:36 GMT
#11
On March 23 2011 10:32 ZiggyD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 10:25 bflip wrote:
hey, i have a death adder too, i use to have a plain black mouse pad, then i got a razer goliathus control, feels a lot different and a lot better, i recommend it ;D


That one looks pretty good, and you have the same mouse so I can trust you ;p Which size do you have?


i have the medium size, perfect for my desk, although at 1800 dpi and quite fast mouse speed, i dont really need it LOL but it's actually quite nice being so big,

^I cant stand wrist wrests lol
(>^.^)>~~~ Phenom ii x4 955, Gigabyte 6850, g.skill 4gb ripjaws, GA-880GA mobo, corsair cx500w, storm scout, WD 500gb blue
Phayze
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2029 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:39:59
March 23 2011 01:38 GMT
#12
You can get Steel Series QcK for $10, or my recommendation the QcK heavy if you want a long lasting mouse pad. Most of these mousepads are used for competitive fps where players use obnoxiously low sensitivities, and need the entire mousepad to do a 180 degree turn. FPS games contrary to belief are not about reaction at all, rather preparation. You should never have to turn more than 180degrees if you are playing the game right, even 90 or 45 degrees for that matter.

wrist rests decrease bloodflow into your hand, and can drastically increase the chance that you will develop an RSI which are mainly believed to be caused by lack of bloodflow. using a surface that is too small has you using more force to grip the mouse as you have limited space and got to use that space accurately.
Proud member of the LGA-1366 Core-i7 4Ghz Club
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
March 23 2011 01:43 GMT
#13
I´m not writing fast enough, so you probably wont read my edit:

Seeing your response:
You´re mouse is obviously decent.(Razer make good mice, maybe expensive, but good.)
You should imho try surfaces in your household first, like newspaper(rougher), magazine(normally slick cover), maybe other flat things I don´t know english names for.
That´s what I did. And then I got a mousepad that´s like the furface I liked most(newspaper, so soft and rough).

In general slick pads are the most precise but also need to be cleaned the most.(Or so they say)
If you take soft ones, they are supposedly not that precise, but also need lot less cleaning.(I never cleaned mine for nearly a year and I didn´t notice a difference)

Imho since half the time my wrist rests on the mousepad the comfort was important to me.
Make of that what you want, but don´t buy into the hype of "better mousepad=>much better mousecontrol" The differences from mousepad to mousepad are minor in comparison to mousepad to table.

Just my 2 cents
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 01:50:19
March 23 2011 01:44 GMT
#14
On March 23 2011 10:33 ZiggyD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 10:28 JingleHell wrote:
Razer Vespula is a tad pricey, at $35, but the wrist wrest is the best wrist wrest I've used while mousing. (These aren't to everyone's taste.)

The smoother of the two surfaces is incredible, especially with low friction mouse feet, for a super smooth glide, so that the vast majority of what slows your hand down is the weight of the mouse.

It's also designed for high-precision mice, so it won't make your movements twitch.


It looks sweet but I would have to try a wrist rest for a while before I bought that in case I found it annoying/obtrusive.


That's definitely why I mentioned it. They're incredibly hit or miss, and the wrest is attached to the rubberized base (which is what makes it such an awesome wrest, it doesn't do that sliding shit so many do).

I actually hate most loose wrests, but only because they move around on my desk before letting my wrist move on them. The motion doesn't feel natural that way for some reason. With it attached, and being the memory stuff, it's the only one I've not fed to pets or used for a haky sak.

Also, hard vs soft pad is a huge difference in feel.

Does anyone else think it could seem strange that we casually discuss $35+ mouse pads in-depth like this?

Edit:
wrist rests decrease bloodflow into your hand, and can drastically increase the chance that you will develop an RSI which are mainly believed to be caused by lack of bloodflow. using a surface that is too small has you using more force to grip the mouse as you have limited space and got to use that space accurately.


They don't for me, but I think my mouse grip is probably the most unconventional thing ever. I end up pivoting on just the small bone on the outside corner of my wrist, and I've actually developed blisters, even on soft pads, let alone desks.

I also don't fully support my weight on it, but rather a portion of the weight. My gaming posture, due to some physical issues, is probably even more unconventional than my mouse grip, and lets me relax across the rest, with my elbow on the chair arm as a third point of contact.

It puts a little more strain on my forearm that way, but at reduced wear on the bottom of my wrist, which also prevents injuries from hurting precision.
Deimos
Profile Joined June 2009
Mexico134 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 02:06:40
March 23 2011 02:06 GMT
#15
I recomend this :

[image loading]




it is like the vespula two surfaces speed and control...but costet only $19.99 on Best Buy xD
Adeeler
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom764 Posts
March 23 2011 02:27 GMT
#16
Makes ZERO difference unless you have a terrible mouse/desk.

I had Xtrax Hammer, Logitech MX1000 now G700 and I got a Steelseries QCK+ and tbh its no different from anything else but I would only recommend the QCK+ because its cheap got mine for £10.

Its nice to have one then not for comfort but thats about it imo.
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
March 23 2011 02:53 GMT
#17
Massive difference for me. I couldn't use a mouse on a wood surface anymore. I strong recommend a cloth mat for the Deathadder, it's perfect for it. Steelseries QcK is a good cheap option. Puretrak Talent if you want to go all out.
valdor4
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States56 Posts
March 23 2011 03:16 GMT
#18
On March 23 2011 11:06 Deimos wrote:
I recomend this :

[image loading]




it is like the vespula two surfaces speed and control...but costet only $19.99 on Best Buy xD


just gonna post this

link to site: http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/products/computers/RF-MSEPAD.html
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
March 23 2011 04:23 GMT
#19
Got a steelseries qck, te only difference I notice is that it's quieter than running my mouse across the desk... In my experience unless you have a shitty desk or use a really sensitive setting it doesn't really matter that much.
ComTrav
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1093 Posts
March 23 2011 04:28 GMT
#20
If you're going to get a really expensive gamer mouse, it's totally worth it to go the extra bit for a good surface.

I like my steelseries qck.
John Madden
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
American Samoa894 Posts
March 23 2011 05:51 GMT
#21
Good mousepads are fairly cheap, Great mousepads get a bit pricey but you can stick with good ones unless you want to be super precise.
Running with any decent one is far better than none at all, good for mouse feet as well so you don't shred them.
FOOTBALL
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
March 23 2011 08:45 GMT
#22
Thanks for all the responses :D

So first off I am definitely going to get a mousepad now

I think I will go with a cloth one maybe a bit softer but not too soft. As long as the pad doesn't move around or slow my movement down it should be fine. I use quite high sensitivity settings so I think only a small one is necessary, not to mention I only have about 20cm of space next to my keyboard.

Thanks! Ill prob post what i end up getting.
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
ZiggyD
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia64 Posts
March 29 2011 00:28 GMT
#23
Thanks again for all the help.

I ended up going for this: Steelseries QcK Mass

[image loading]

It took a while to settle in (two nights with textbooks on top of it) but I think Im quite happy with it, its comfortable, the mouse glides well and It seems like it should be easy to keep clean.

My only gripe is that its a bit too big for my tiny desk but that should rectified with a desk upgrade later this year.

Anyone else have this mousepad?
Editor/Writer - LearningSC2.com
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
March 29 2011 01:16 GMT
#24
I have a similar one: http://shop.steelseries.com/index.php/surfaces/steelseries-qck-heavy.html

I think it uses the same material, mine is just bigger.
alinarose
Profile Joined July 2022
4 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-27 15:15:54
July 27 2022 13:20 GMT
#25
--- Nuked ---
punk2077
Profile Joined October 2024
1 Post
Last Edited: 2024-10-24 00:35:09
October 24 2024 00:33 GMT
#26
--- Nuked ---
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC Evo League
12:00
#11
MindelVK39
LiquipediaDiscussion
AllThingsProtoss
11:00
Team League - Playoff Seeding
Gemini_1940
Liquipedia
WardiTV Invitational
11:00
WardiTV May Group A
WardiTV1072
ComeBackTV 791
IndyStarCraft 240
Rex190
LiquipediaDiscussion
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Sea Duckling Open #134
CranKy Ducklings90
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 240
Rex 190
LamboSC2 130
MindelVK 39
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 10902
Rain 7132
firebathero 5535
Sea 3513
Flash 2082
Horang2 1722
Hyuk 1013
Pusan 997
Mini 309
Last 289
[ Show more ]
Stork 260
actioN 250
ZerO 152
ggaemo 99
Aegong 43
Sea.KH 40
Killer 38
sSak 29
Barracks 28
TY 28
Sharp 28
Shinee 24
Free 19
Backho 18
sorry 17
SilentControl 17
Movie 14
IntoTheRainbow 13
Sacsri 10
yabsab 10
Dota 2
XcaliburYe1282
Fuzer 237
Counter-Strike
fl0m2622
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King139
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor305
Liquid`Hasu153
Other Games
singsing3213
B2W.Neo1411
DeMusliM613
Happy476
crisheroes456
Lowko431
SortOf126
KnowMe78
ArmadaUGS53
ZerO(Twitch)15
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL18530
Other Games
gamesdonequick1165
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv128
Other Games
BasetradeTV36
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2728
• Jankos1123
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
1h 1m
Chat StarLeague
3h 1m
PassionCraft
4h 1m
Circuito Brasileiro de…
5h 1m
Online Event
15h 1m
MaxPax vs herO
SHIN vs Cure
Clem vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs herO
ShoWTimE vs Clem
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 1m
WardiTV Invitational
22h 1m
AllThingsProtoss
22h 1m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 1h
Chat StarLeague
1d 3h
[ Show More ]
Circuito Brasileiro de…
1d 5h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 21h
BeSt vs Light
Wardi Open
1d 22h
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Snow vs Soulkey
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
ByuN vs Rogue
herO vs Cure
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Classic vs Reynor
GuMiho vs Maru
The PondCast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Nation Wars Season 2
PiG Sty Festival 6.0
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSLPRO Spring 2025
2025 GSL S1
Heroes 10 EU
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

NPSL S3
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.