EPTBattle Report 3 - Page 30
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feathers
United States236 Posts
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InterWill
Sweden117 Posts
You can teach someone to do things mechanically without them understanding the game at all. It's not that hard. You just have to be fast enough. Learning why and when you are supposed to do things require a deeper understanding of the game. Learning the subtle nuances of timing is hard. Was Gretzky the greatest because he was faster or shot harder than anyone else? Is Boxer a legend because of his mechanics? Do you think that's air your breathing? | ||
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Yenzilla
Canada84 Posts
On June 22 2009 06:20 Idle wrote:Think how different bw would be if you could only use storm or irradiate once every 3 minutes. I don't think you could find a single person who would argue that psi storm cooldown makes any sense at all. Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best). I would actually liken it your second example, scans. Obviously, they're 'slightly' different in that scans actually used energy and had no 'real' cooldown, but beneath it all, they acted the same: you'd have a limited number of uses, and you'd have to wait for the energy to return (in other words, cool down). If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter? *EMP excepted, I know, but this may as well be intentional on Blizzard's part, not wanting to rob the Stalker of its gimmick so easily. Also: EASTER EGG MIGHT NOT BE ANATOMICALLY PERFECT, SHOCK AND AWE. Of course, there are many different kinds of goldfish, and I'm pretty sure one of them actually has wavy tail fins. EDIT: Srsly, your claim that all goldfish look the same is racist. ![[image loading]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/eLv3n/wavytail.jpg) | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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Yenzilla
Canada84 Posts
The thing is, all the suggestions I've heard for removing cooldown (or, at least, a large majority of them) basically revolve around the Stalker having enough energy to blink once, and only once. This, of course, makes changing the current system in place entirely pointless. If, of course, the Stalker might be able to blink more than once then yeah, that would change it completely (now with possible 'Stalker imba' fun!). | ||
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:05 Yenzilla wrote: Blink, however, is not Psi Storm. It makes sense, from a balance perspective, to give Stalkers a cooldown for their ability (especially considering how effectively its being used already, by what the common sentiment seems to be above average players at best). If Blizzard simply implemented the oft-thrown-around suggestion of simply making Blink cost 5 energy while giving the Stalker 5 energy to spend, it would still be identical in play*. The only real difference between giving the Stalker a small amount of energy, and giving Blink a cooldown is presentation, and really, what the hell does it matter? I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
![[image loading]](http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/Goldfish.jpg) | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:31 Idle wrote: I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity. Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight? Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER. | ||
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight? Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER. No, I don't see how that would be ridiculously strong because as soon as you've used it 2-3 times you now have to wait for your energy bar to regen back to whatever is needed to blink. It leads to exactly the creative uses I like to see. They may escape, but now the energy is spent, and next time you encounter them they may not have the energy to even blink once. If you spent all of your energy chasing down an army, and suddenly that army gets reinforced your stalkers are now dead because you have used all your energy to pursue and have none left to flee. It makes you have to think about if this is the best situation to use your energy. | ||
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InterWill
Sweden117 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:31 Idle wrote: I disagree with the blink being 5 energy and stalker having 5 energy. That's a lousy suggestion in my opinion, its just a cooldown. So I would agree with you on that point. However that's not what I would like to see. A 10 second cooldown lends itself to being spammed on cd, which brings up the question why even make the person push the button? Just make blink autocast since its going to be used as soon as its up anyway. It also detracts from being used creatively. As somebody posted, energy allows the player to store it up and use it several times if the need arises. Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession to either escape or intercept an enemy force (or perhaps uses we haven't even found yet) lends itself to much more creative use of the ability than a simple 10 second cd. It also creates an ability that you want to not waste, you want to save it for the right moment, but at the same time you are not afraid of wasting it when you see the opportunity. What?! A ten second cooldown lends itself to more strategic choices. If I use it now and blink to a bad position I will be screwed. It forces the player to play smarter and be more creative. Besides, it would be impossible to make it autocast. Where would it blink? When? Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5472 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:41 FrozenArbiter wrote: Because you want to control where it goes? Because you don't want to waste it during a fight? Giving it a 3 cooldown limit might lead to more creative uses, but it will also make the stalker about 10 times as strong lol MAYBE as a late game upgrade - MAYBE. Seriously, you can get blink incredibly fast, don't you see how ridiculously strong they would be if they could blink 3 times in a row? They'd literally never be caught by anything, ever! Nothing could outrun them, EVER. That's a good point. A cooldown is designed to limit something's effectiveness. If you could use blink multiple times really quickly, then expect the Stalker to be much weaker overall. Like a pure harassment unit that can't actually fight units at equal strength on its own. I'm pretty sure that's not the role they are designing the unit for. If you change it to 10 energy, 10 energy to use, then sure, EMP works on it. Maybe Blizzard doesn't want Ghosts to counter them that hard - not only taking their shields but disabling their blink for 10 seconds. It could weaken them too much. Otherwise, the change does little. I believe the High Templar's Temporal Rift already prevents all units from using their ability inside the field (or I may be thinking of another spell), so EMP would be the only change. And it really is such a petty argument, because it feels like "War3". If that's the only reason, you need to seriously think about what you're saying. Focus your energy on thinking about real changes that need to be implemented. Anyway, what other abilities are on cooldowns? A zealot cannot charge more than once every 10 seconds. (But he's still faster anyway, after the upgrade is researched) I believe a reaper's mines; Possibly the thor's special ability, whatever that may be at this time; Possibly the Overseers drop creep, spawn changeling spells? So yeah, cooldowns are on units that aren't necessarily "casters". Also, changing all these units into units with energy would mean that the Ghost snipe ability would do extra damage to them - since it does bonus vs. "psionic" units. It's just such a pointless discussion. One of the most pointless ones we've had on TL.net about SC2, and I've been posting since the beginning of this forum.  | ||
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OwlFeet
75 Posts
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:56 InterWill wrote: What?! A ten second cooldown lends itself to more strategic choices. If I use it now and blink to a bad position I will be screwed. It forces the player to play smarter and be more creative. Besides, it would be impossible to make it autocast. Where would it blink? When? Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively. You're thinking too short term. What happens now that you've used up all your blinks and can't blink again until your energy has recharged? Hahahaaa With what army? Oh I dunno, probably the army that they were so scared of they just used 3 blinks in rapid succession to escape from. | ||
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ManWithCheese
Canada246 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:48 Idle wrote: No, I don't see how that would be ridiculously strong because as soon as you've used it 2-3 times you now have to wait for your energy bar to regen back to whatever is needed to blink. It leads to exactly the creative uses I like to see. They may escape, but now the energy is spent, and next time you encounter them they may not have the energy to even blink once. If you spent all of your energy chasing down an army, and suddenly that army gets reinforced your stalkers are now dead because you have used all your energy to pursue and have none left to flee. It makes you have to think about if this is the best situation to use your energy. Honestly this idea is just terrible and awful. You want to make the stalker a vastly overpowered unit and a vastly underpowered unit, good luck balancing that. This also wouldn't make people think about when to use this would only severely limit when you can use it, ie: defensive purposes only 99% of the time which is certainly not whats best for the game. | ||
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:56 InterWill wrote: What?! Being able to blink 2-3 times in rapid succession makes the decision of when and where to blink much less important. Blinked at a bad time or to a bad position? No problem, just blink again. It detracts for being used creatively. Except for now you've blinked twice, used up all your energy, and can't blink again for [energy recharge period]. When and where to blink is just as critical if not more so with an energy system. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:58 Idle wrote: You're thinking too short term. What happens now that you've used up all your blinks and can't blink again until your energy has recharged? The battle will probably be already over by then. A Stalker that can blink several times in rapid succession would be near impossible to kill in a battle. So what if the Stalker runs out of energy? The Stalker will be miles away from my range due to his blinking range, so it renders the whole thing moot. The reason why units like Zealots and Stalkers get cooldowns on their abilities is because they are capable of defending themselves. A High Templar is able to spam spells because it's the only way a High Templar can attack. A HT without mana might as well be wearing a "Kill Me" sign, unlike a Stalker which can still attack both ground and air targets. Spellcasters NEED to be able to spam spells because they are expensive and defenseless. If Psionic Storm had a cooldown, it would make HTs much less effective. Stalkers can get away with cooldowns because they are cheap and able to attack. You can't just compare combat units and caster units because they play entirely different roles on the battlefield. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
On June 22 2009 08:53 freelander wrote: anyway.. psi storm has a cooldown in bw, like 1.5 or 2 secs Yeah it has a cooldown only a little shorter then that tho =p, more like 1sec. | ||
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Husky
United States3362 Posts
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kevin349
United States68 Posts
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