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On October 11 2008 18:02 Zelniq wrote:
In the original Starcraft, the way singleplayer campaign was designed rewarded and taught players to turtle and get a lot of static defense, and didn't encourage much expanding (along with several other important multiplayer concepts).
Haha, this is so not true :p
I played through the campaigns again when I were a lot older since when I originally played them I did not care about the story. Anyhow what I realized that it is by far the easiest to go for very fast expanding and taking your opponents resources before they start to build things, that way you can win most of the later maps in ~10-15 minutes.
So the turtling is not a fault of the campaign, but it is the nature of the noob to turtle in every game they get their hands on. Also Blizzard games favor aggressive play in their campaigns much more than their competition, just look at wc2 there it is impossible to play defensive in the expansions campaigns.
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On October 11 2008 18:18 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2008 18:02 Zelniq wrote:
In the original Starcraft, the way singleplayer campaign was designed rewarded and taught players to turtle and get a lot of static defense, and didn't encourage much expanding (along with several other important multiplayer concepts). Haha, this is so not true :p I played through the campaigns again when I were a lot older since when I originally played them I did not care about the story. Anyhow what I realized that it is by far the easiest to go for very fast expanding and taking your opponents resources before they start to build things, that way you can win most of the later maps in ~10-15 minutes. So the turtling is not a fault of the campaign, but it is the nature of the noob to turtle in every game they get their hands on. Also Blizzard games favor aggressive play in their campaigns much more than their competition, just look at wc2 there it is impossible to play defensive in the expansions campaigns.
Actually what you are saying is so not true. The campaign rewards turtling greatly.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Eh, I think Klockan is right, aggressive expanding/massing leads to far faster wins than turtling -_-
Some maps kinda do reward turtling I suppose, like the protoss map where you have to rescue tassadar from the stasis. Pretty sure winning that map with anything but mass carriers would take forever.
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1- When you train a DT its like ghosts, where sometimes you get a woman, other times you get a man? I ask because the screenshot with 2 different DTs of teh same faction.
2- How you feel the Carrier by now?
3- Colossus seem so weak in the new videos, i say, they dont kils scvs in one hit, and the predetermined line path of the shoot seems awful. Is it usable/worth by now?
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Yeah it did seem pretty worthless. They need to fix the path AI for the laser so that it picks a start unit and end unit and shoots from start to finish like that (and if there is only one unit then it is focused on it). I can only think of one reason not to do this and its that the beam is so powerful if it ever focused on one unit at a time it would just pick it off like nothing, but that's just an issue vs buildings and individual units.
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On October 11 2008 19:43 milly9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2008 18:18 Klockan3 wrote:On October 11 2008 18:02 Zelniq wrote:
In the original Starcraft, the way singleplayer campaign was designed rewarded and taught players to turtle and get a lot of static defense, and didn't encourage much expanding (along with several other important multiplayer concepts). Haha, this is so not true :p I played through the campaigns again when I were a lot older since when I originally played them I did not care about the story. Anyhow what I realized that it is by far the easiest to go for very fast expanding and taking your opponents resources before they start to build things, that way you can win most of the later maps in ~10-15 minutes. So the turtling is not a fault of the campaign, but it is the nature of the noob to turtle in every game they get their hands on. Also Blizzard games favor aggressive play in their campaigns much more than their competition, just look at wc2 there it is impossible to play defensive in the expansions campaigns. Actually what you are saying is so not true. The campaign rewards turtling greatly.
No, you are wrong. Play the campaigns again. Most levels reward very aggressive play. You should be able to beat 80% of the levels in under 15 minutes if you play aggressively. There are a few levels which take much longer, but aggressive expanding and attacking is the way to beat the campaigns fast.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 11 2008 23:10 danieldrsa wrote:
1- When you train a DT its like ghosts, where sometimes you get a woman, other times you get a man? I ask because the screenshot with 2 different DTs of teh same faction. Uh, i dont think there are females... if there are well then they are not sexually dimorphic
2- How you feel the Carrier by now? I've never used it, it's junk really. Warp-Ray's are in and they kick ass.
3- Colossus seem so weak in the new videos, i say, they dont kils scvs in one hit, and the predetermined line path of the shoot seems awful. Is it usable/worth by now? I found colossi to be quite formidable when i used them. Very powerful units...
Also the spine crawlers and spore thingie do move about (they can basically uproot and move). Nothing special about it really.
Also the nydus worm is called up by the overseer (no creep required, just a nydus network)
Jackals -> Hellion. You could kinda control it like a vulture, but there is no hardcore vult micro with it. You wouldn't want to either, its a splash unit and you just want to get melee units to stack up against you rather than moving shot.
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does a burrowed unit next to a xel'naga tower still get vision?
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What units are needed to activate those towers? Do towers "run out" of vision or are more units needed to activate them over time, etc etc? Anything special?
BTW there are destroyable rocks, tall grass and Xel'Naga towers as additional contents to the maps now. Is there anything new at Blizzcon?
Did you notice anything unusual about the stats and costs of any units?
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Are there any obvious imbalances that you can see right now? (besides DT's and Stalkers)
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How were the units' AI? Was it like in the previous build where they would easily surround other units, or have they changed it?
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I've heard the Queen is no longer unique? How does it feel to toy around with it?
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How does blink for the stalkers actually work? Do you select the ability and then click a location to blink to or does it do it automatically? How does it exactly function?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 12 2008 08:12 wrags wrote:
does a burrowed unit next to a xel'naga tower still get vision? I believe it does,not 100% sure though
On October 12 2008 09:44 beetlelisk wrote:
What units are needed to activate those towers? Do towers "run out" of vision or are more units needed to activate them over time, etc etc? Anything special? any unit can activate them (i think workers can) and they do not run out.
BTW there are destroyable rocks, tall grass and Xel'Naga towers as additional contents to the maps now. Is there anything new at Blizzcon? Yes, there are (at the very least) destroyable rocks. In one of the maps they had 2000hp
did you notice anything unusual about the stats and costs of any units? Not really, everything is still going to be changing obviously so costs at this point are things that i haven't really taken too much interest in.
On October 12 2008 10:15 Gokey wrote:
Are there any obvious imbalances that you can see right now? (besides DT's and Stalkers) Yes. Marauders are disgustingly imbalanced (they destroy protoss badly). Zatic worked out a siiick rush using them that only was stopped by Haji with 3gate stalker (but he still lots in the end). Banelings are also way too strong at the moment. Sure Zerg don't have lurkers anymore, but banelings fully compensate for that (and then some).
On October 12 2008 13:56 Ahzarelly wrote:
How were the units' AI? Was it like in the previous build where they would easily surround other units, or have they changed it? I think the AI is roughly the same. The units take orders slightly better than before, which i guess is a good thing but auto surround is still in.
On October 12 2008 14:25 VIB wrote:
I've heard the Queen is no longer unique? How does it feel to toy around with it? Queens are kinda pointless, except for their razor plague thing. A few queens casting that is pretty sick. Iono, them not being unique is a good thing imo but I'm not sure if they've found their right niche yet.
On October 12 2008 16:16 Roxen000 wrote:
How does blink for the stalkers actually work? Do you select the ability and then click a location to blink to or does it do it automatically? How does it exactly function? You select blink than select where to blink to and they blink there.
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Are Zerg Sunkens movable ?
yes
Are Protoss Canons movable ?
no
Also, how is the 30% more movement speed on creep.
its more like they move 30% slower off the creep, it feels very natural that zerg units move faster on the creep, and having overloards shit creep all over an enemy base so your units can run around easier is possibly the greatest thing about starcraft 2
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On October 12 2008 17:11 Plexa wrote:
Yes. Marauders are disgustingly imbalanced (they destroy protoss badly). Zatic worked out a siiick rush using them that only was stopped by Haji with 3gate stalker (but he still lots in the end). Banelings are also way too strong at the moment. Sure Zerg don't have lurkers anymore, but banelings fully compensate for that (and then some).
i dont know about you, but the matches i watched at blizzcon had lurkers in em, i didnt get a chance to play around with zerg enough to check all the tech tree, but sonkie used lurkers against yellow.
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On October 12 2008 17:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 14:25 VIB wrote:
I've heard the Queen is no longer unique? How does it feel to toy around with it? Queens are kinda pointless, except for their razor plague thing. A few queens casting that is pretty sick. Iono, them not being unique is a good thing imo but I'm not sure if they've found their right niche yet. Wait wait, slow down ^^ What abilities does the Queen has and what do they do? What tier/role/avg cost does it have? I mean, I suppose it's a lightweight early game caster like the nullifier but focused on base/defense?
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The queen had the creep tumor ability that would spread creep, and a researched ability called razor plague. It's kind of like dark swarm, but it does damage to things underneath it, and you can move it around like a unit. Other than that, I didn't check. i assume it had the deep tunnel and you could upgrade it at lair hive etc, nothing else though.
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Couple clarifications / additional info:
On October 12 2008 17:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 08:12 wrags wrote:
does a burrowed unit next to a xel'naga tower still get vision? I believe it does,not 100% sure though
Burrowed units don't activate towers.
Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 09:44 beetlelisk wrote:
What units are needed to activate those towers? Do towers "run out" of vision or are more units needed to activate them over time, etc etc? Anything special? any unit can activate them (i think workers can) and they do not run out.
Towers never "run out" of vision. Towers are controlled by a player if they position at least one non-burrowed ground unit by the tower *and* if there are no enemy non-burrowed ground units nearby.
Show nested quote +BTW there are destroyable rocks, tall grass and Xel'Naga towers as additional contents to the maps now. Is there anything new at Blizzcon? Yes, there are (at the very least) destroyable rocks. In one of the maps they had 2000hp
From what I could tell there were no "new" terrain mechanics unveiled at Blizzcon. Destructible objects [rocks, scrap metal], Xel'Naga towers and line-of-sight blockers [trees, smoke] were the only mechanics present.
Not really, everything is still going to be changing obviously so costs at this point are things that i haven't really taken too much interest in.
Word.
Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 10:15 Gokey wrote:
Are there any obvious imbalances that you can see right now? (besides DT's and Stalkers) Yes. Marauders are disgustingly imbalanced (they destroy protoss badly). Zatic worked out a siiick rush using them that only was stopped by Haji with 3gate stalker (but he still lots in the end). Banelings are also way too strong at the moment. Sure Zerg don't have lurkers anymore, but banelings fully compensate for that (and then some).
Balance isn't really worth talking about at this point. Given that the Starcraft metagame took years to develop [and continues to develop even now] it's impossible to pass any kind of objective judgement on the current state of SC2 balance.
It's also still too early in development to be *too* worried about balance. Emphasis is still on design and unit relationships and less about tweaking and fine-tuning balance numbers. This will come in the last phase of development [with beta playing a big role.]
Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 13:56 Ahzarelly wrote:
How were the units' AI? Was it like in the previous build where they would easily surround other units, or have they changed it? I think the AI is roughly the same. The units take orders slightly better than before, which i guess is a good thing but auto surround is still in.
People seem to have a misconception about this issue: there's no such thing as "auto surround." All you're seeing here is a dramatically improved pathing code. Units are now *very* efficient at moving around / engaging enemy forces.
There *are*, however, gameplay "side effects" of the pathing improvement. Worker harvesting and the increased effectiveness of melee units are two very prominent examples.
If it turns out that some fun, strategic gameplay has been lost due to the pathing improvements...I'm sure Blizzard will take a look at this down the road. Just understand that the goal in improving pathing is ultimately to give *more* control to the player over his units, and to try to ensure that units respond more consistently to any given order [no goons running aimlessly in circles, bashing heads against one another.]
Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 14:25 VIB wrote:
I've heard the Queen is no longer unique? How does it feel to toy around with it? Queens are kinda pointless, except for their razor plague thing. A few queens casting that is pretty sick. Iono, them not being unique is a good thing imo but I'm not sure if they've found their right niche yet.
Nothing to say here as I haven't played with the new Queen.
Show nested quote +On October 12 2008 16:16 Roxen000 wrote:
How does blink for the stalkers actually work? Do you select the ability and then click a location to blink to or does it do it automatically? How does it exactly function? You select blink than select where to blink to and they blink there.
Additionally, if you ask a Stalker to blink to a location which they can't reach [i.e. it's outside of the range of the spell] they'll just blink as far as they can in that direction.
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are the marines worse than they in the previous build were?
In the videos what I have seen I only have seen Marauders being used.. are they buffed?
What do tehy have instead of the slowing effect?
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EPT
