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On August 19 2024 09:37 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 08:01 luxon wrote:
- also wtf is "mvp" in a 1v1 game, just make first place 450k then, or split the winnings more equitably. From what I can tell, there's EWC-wide, Sony-sponsored MVP awards for every game, with team games being the focus. So for 1v1 games it basically just became a bonus for the champ, where the main intent is to reward the best player on the winning team in the bigger game categories.
I miss ESL's Epic Nerd Baller award. It was so much cooler than this generic MVP for a 1v1 game.
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Overall I thought this was a fantastic tournament. We got to see 18 of the best current SC2 players, got to see some amazing casting from talent who have put work in to get there and the stage production looked really on point and reminded me of some of the older Blizzcon events.
My only concern about this is the sustainability. It's a huge prize pool, expensive production and even with the viewing numbers as high as they were, they aren't exactly selling out stadiums and the crowd looks very sparse. Even if this continues with a reduced prize pool, I'd still like to see this again but unless they have something like this again to pull in players, then we won't get anyone new to replace the retiring players.
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On August 19 2024 08:29 Nakajin wrote:
A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match.
100% agree. Though very happy for Clem, what a champ! In the long run, I don't think SCII esports can survive via a Saudi benefactor model if it doesn't make business sense independently. I totally understand why the players, casters, and fans are desperate enough to accept this in the short term after Blizzard, KeSPA, and GSL pulled the plug, but the reality is that if your game isn't popular enough to have a player base and consistent viewership that can attract corporate sponsors, your game needs to evolve. This is why chess is very quickly evolving towards faster time controls and more interesting game and tournament formats, and why the FIDE world championship circuit will either need to evolve or stubbornly put itself into a stasis ward of irrelevance. Taking Saudi money to prop your game up for a few more years in some ways just delays the inevitable, which in and of itself isn't bad. But when coupled with lending SCII's prestige to promote a bizarre event in Riyadh, and disorienting the players, devs, casters, and viewers as to the reality of the market dynamics...it doesn't feel right. And it doesn't look at and sound right. I tuned in one day briefly and I think the production team was pausing the in-game music when the players' names were being announced at the start of the game, but instead of cheers it was just silence because the playing hall was empty (a camera cut to the "audience" and I saw like 3 people). Seeing what I assume were members of the Saudi royal family up there yucking it up with players and casters just felt so gross. It's one thing for Bilbo to hold on to the ring of power for too long, it's a whole other thing for him to lend it to Sauron for a little while for a bit of extra cash. Too much poison dosed over not enough antidote, if I may butcher Bilbo's butter and bread analogy worse than a Saudi security agent butchers an American journalist.
The thing is while the Saudis are focused on geopolitical goals with these kinds of investments and corporate investors are focused on marketing ROI, in the long run both sets of goals require very significant viewership numbers with key target audiences. If it doesn't make sense to a corporate marketing department, it's eventually not going to make sense to the PR firms that are advising the Saudi government on this. I do think SCII is the "prestige" play here--and you're always going to want a few of those in your portfolio--but with no forthcoming DLC or other content associated with this IP it's only a matter of time before the Saudis also move on. The community will have gotten a couple more years of an esport and the players and casters will have gotten some much deserved financial support for a scene that probably couldn't survive without it. But at what cost?
I just hope esports doesn't become the laughing stock of the entertainment industry by ceding what should be an important event featuring the best players and the best games to an entity that cares neither about the games nor the players, and only cares about itself and how it's viewed in the world.
If you enjoyed the event, please don't get triggered by this post. Not trying to take away anything from the players or games or viewers who had a good time. I watched some myself and enjoyed too. Just hoping there can at least be some conversation about the very bizarre and unfortunate situation SCII and the esports industry more generally has found itself in here.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On August 21 2024 04:00 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 08:29 Nakajin wrote:
A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match. 100% agree. Though very happy for Clem, what a champ! In the long run, I don't think SCII esports can survive via a Saudi benefactor model if it doesn't make business sense independently. I totally understand why the players, casters, and fans are desperate enough to accept this in the short term after Blizzard, KeSPA, and GSL pulled the plug, but the reality is that if your game isn't popular enough to have a player base and consistent viewership that can attract corporate sponsors, your game needs to evolve. This is why chess is very quickly evolving towards faster time controls and more interesting game and tournament formats, and why the FIDE world championship circuit will either need to evolve or stubbornly put itself into a stasis ward of irrelevance. Taking Saudi money to prop your game up for a few more years in some ways just delays the inevitable, which in and of itself isn't bad. But when coupled with lending SCII's prestige to promote a bizarre event in Riyadh, and disorienting the players, devs, casters, and viewers as to the reality of the market dynamics...it doesn't feel right. And it doesn't look at and sound right. I tuned in one day briefly and I think the production team was pausing the in-game music when the players' names were being announced at the start of the game, but instead of cheers it was just silence because the playing hall was empty (a camera cut to the "audience" and I saw like 3 people). Seeing what I assume were members of the Saudi royal family up there yucking it up with players and casters just felt so gross. It's one thing for Bilbo to hold on to the ring of power for too long, it's a whole other thing for him to lend it to Sauron for a little while for a bit of extra cash. Too much poison dosed over not enough antidote, if I may butcher Bilbo's butter and bread analogy worse than a Saudi security agent butchers an American journalist. The thing is while the Saudis are focused on geopolitical goals with these kinds of investments and corporate investors are focused on marketing ROI, in the long run both sets of goals require very significant viewership numbers with key target audiences. If it doesn't make sense to a corporate marketing department, it's eventually not going to make sense to the PR firms that are advising the Saudi government on this. I do think SCII is the "prestige" play here--and you're always going to want a few of those in your portfolio--but with no forthcoming DLC or other content associated with this IP it's only a matter of time before the Saudis also move on. The community will have gotten a couple more years of an esport and the players and casters will have gotten some much deserved financial support for a scene that probably couldn't survive without it. But at what cost? I just hope esports doesn't become the laughing stock of the entertainment industry by ceding what should be an important event featuring the best players and the best games to an entity that cares neither about the games nor the players, and only cares about itself and how it's viewed in the world. If you enjoyed the event, please don't get triggered by this post. Not trying to take away anything from the players or games or viewers who had a good time. I watched some myself and enjoyed too. Just hoping there can at least be some conversation about the very bizarre and unfortunate situation SCII and the esports industry more generally has found itself in here.
Can’t really disagree with any of that.
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On August 20 2024 03:45 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2024 23:50 ejozl wrote:
Clem played amazingly, but I am more amazed by herO. He plays the highest lvl pvt, beating his old self. And he reached even old stats pvz lvl. Still this doesn't mean that you can win as protoss. Play the highest peak of skill ever and you still only get a ro4, protoss seriously needs help. I like herO a lot but to think he played at "the highest peak of skill ever" at this tournament is pure copium, IMO. He probably didn't play at his personal peak, let alone any player ever. herO had won vs Clem 3-0 just recently, so obviously it's possible with this patch / map pool. Clem was just much better this particular Sunday, just like he played much better than Serral in the finals. Repeat the same Ro4 this or next Sunday and I'm not sure Clem necessarily wins vs herO or Serral. Sometimes one player hits the peak form of his life for one day is simply untouchable, that's it.
Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players.
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What an performance from Clem, Congratulations! Well deserved Victory!
I think Clem must have been studying and analyzing Serral´s play a little extra though, 8-0 against the Goat himself is just... Insane. Just like Reynor "knows" Clem´s play (their match was much closer.)
Lastly I think TL.net could at least show a picture of clem holding the Trophy on the front page. Especially when it´s the biggest Tournament of the year.
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On August 21 2024 14:55 ejozl wrote:
Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players. Is Clem really to blame he never lost a series unlike herO who lost 3 series, two of them in 3-0 and 4-0 sweeps?
Because this is why Clem had to play only 5 series vs 4 opponents.
Because he never lost, easily dominating 4 series out of 5 with 3-0, 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, struggling a bit only vs Reynor.
herO had been playing a way rougher road only because he lost twice, is it a praise-worth achievement really?
Clem's map score was 18-2, 90% winrate - herO's was 20-12, 62% winrate.
Clem's map score vs "Final Boss" Serral was 8-0 - herO's was 2-6.
Throughout the tournament herO's form was very good but not even his best, while Clem's form was god-like. This is why Clem won.
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Clem gonna go crazy until his wrists give out. Happens to every top Terran. The best players play Terran until their body gives out. It is what it is.
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On August 21 2024 17:23 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2024 14:55 ejozl wrote:
Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players. Is Clem really to blame he never lost a series unlike herO who lost 3 series, two of them in 3-0 and 4-0 sweeps? Because this is why Clem had to play only 5 series vs 4 opponents. Because he never lost, easily dominating 4 series out of 5 with 3-0, 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, struggling a bit only vs Reynor. herO had been playing a way rougher road only because he lost twice, is it a praise-worth achievement really? Clem's map score was 18-2, 90% winrate - herO's was 20-12, 62% winrate. Clem's map score vs "Final Boss" Serral was 8-0 - herO's was 2-6. Throughout the tournament herO's form was very good but not even his best, while Clem's form was god-like. This is why Clem won.
Clem isn't to blame, but a 3 day tournament should probably have its winner, defeat more than 4 players. HerO just stole the spotlight for me, and that's because of the tournament structure, and his performance.
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On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote:
solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
Sometimes it comes down to some games are more important and he lost the ones that were.
In tennis you can win all of your service games without giving up a point and the other player can win the match if they win the tiebreaker points since those matter more. A soccer team can finish undefeated in their group game and lose in the round of 16, finishing with the same prize money as a team that went 1-0-2 and qualified with a bit of luck to the round of 16. It happens in every sport, win when it matters, don’t lose more than 50% of your games and there won’t be an issue.
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On August 22 2024 01:25 clemserral wrote:
Clem gonna go crazy until his wrists give out. Happens to every top Terran. The best players play Terran until their body gives out. It is what it is.
Did you make this account just to comment on this one post?
What a legend LOL.
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Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
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On August 25 2024 02:04 WickedCestus wrote:
Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
I disagree with almost everything here. The format was really cool and innovative. The lopsided final rounds managed to be as interesting as they could be due to the tournament structure.
The 5 out of 9 was really cool.
Whoever came up with this event structure did a great job.
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Northern Ireland26511 Posts
On August 25 2024 02:04 WickedCestus wrote:
Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
Can’t disagree with basically any of that
There is no perfect format, they all have some kind of pluses and minuses, so we have to bear that in mind.
But assessing this particular format, what does it do better than others?
Round robins or Swiss formats you get a mix of games, they mitigate things like bracket luck, or having a singular bad series. Single elim brings huge stakes and drama, but you maybe have an underwhelming latter stage if a few of the top dogs are eliminated early. Etc etc
People will have preferences for various spectacle, or sporting fairness reasons, but I can see those reasons at least. This format I just don’t see what it does well, and a lot it does badly.
Traditionally, a Katowice starts slowly but there is some jeopardy. The big guns usually but don’t always make it out of groups. Everyone else is fighting to get out. Then the hype just builds from there as we get to playoffs and the anticipated matchups.
Doing a format where you’re playing for a Ro4 slot, or basically nothing, for two whole days. Clem and Dark had two of those 4 sewn up pretty early too. So hey, there’s the intrigue of who makes it for that remaining one. Except it’s in a format where Serral/Maru etc have an extra shot, and let’s be real it’s exceedingly likely to be one of them.
Also way too many immediate rematches as well, which I’m not a massive fan of, but opinions may vary!
Then we get to the nail biting, single elimination gauntlet, ok cool it’s intense stuff. Except make it Bo3 for some reason.
Also have two of your players only have one shot and enter at this stage.
It’s just pretty messy all round, it doesn’t build gradually to a crescendo from a quiet start, it sorta started quite intense, high stakes then fell off a cliff for a day. Then you had a handful of playoff matches left to try and pick it up.
Minor tweaks, I think you make it much better. If you’re gonna do the straight to the Ro4 thing (which tbh I don’t massively like anyway), make THAT the single elimination gauntlet. Have it for one slot, have it for a day, feed it into a double elim bracket and have players who advanced far, get seeded into later rounds as we go. Let all your players play that stage! You get a pretty high stakes mini-tournament, no mistakes for a pretty big mini-prize. Then you’re straight into a regular knockout bracket where there’s stakes on most matches.
Note, those are tweaks I’d make around the base format we saw, I wouldn’t personally adopt that as a base to start with.
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is there a replay pack at all?
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EPT
