EPTHow interested are you in playing or watching the SC: Evo…
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TL.net Bot
TL.net129 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2572 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
It already looks to me like certain match ups like ZvZ don't seem playable at all in a competitive way, so there's only so much we can realistically expect from the mod in terms of being an actual competitive game. It's fun to watch for now though. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2215 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1429 Posts
On May 18 2024 09:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I feel like we're in a honeymoon period with SC: Evo where because the game is so not figured out, that it leads to a lot of chaotic and entertaining games because pro players don't have complete information about what decisions to make. It's hard to know if the game will remain as entertaining as it currently is whenever a metagame forms and some stability starts to happen. It already looks to me like certain match ups like ZvZ don't seem playable at all in a competitive way, so there's only so much we can realistically expect from the mod in terms of being an actual competitive game. It's fun to watch for now though. I don't think it really has much of a future outside the pro level without a ladder or some sort of ranking system. People will see it as a fad. I'll still tune into any showmatches/tournaments afreeca hosts though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 18 2024 09:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I feel like we're in a honeymoon period with SC: Evo where because the game is so not figured out, that it leads to a lot of chaotic and entertaining games because pro players don't have complete information about what decisions to make. It's hard to know if the game will remain as entertaining as it currently is whenever a metagame forms and some stability starts to happen. It already looks to me like certain match ups like ZvZ don't seem playable at all in a competitive way, so there's only so much we can realistically expect from the mod in terms of being an actual competitive game. It's fun to watch for now though. Yeah I’m in this boat, it’s a blast as a bit of a novelty for sure but the more it’s fleshed out the higher the likelihood some things will be pretty broken. Reavers with shuttles and the SC2 engine are rather terrifying, likewise irradiate with SC2’s tighter clumping. Have the folks who made this left armour/attack types as they were in the respective games or did they make any wee tweaks there? There’s a lot I don’t know and some fights were kinda hard to gauge, but as I said I did enioy those show matches | ||
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tigera6
3219 Posts
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Vision_
851 Posts
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KingzTig
155 Posts
and yet again proving the "time to kill" isn't an issue if it provides entertaining games. Some stuff obviously will need to be rebalanced, but at the same time with total 6 "races", not needing for pinpoint dry balance is a welcome change | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada112 Posts
Ex. SC1 Battlecruiser being worse in every way than the SC2 Battlecruiser | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On May 18 2024 11:30 WombaT wrote: Yeah I’m in this boat, it’s a blast as a bit of a novelty for sure but the more it’s fleshed out the higher the likelihood some things will be pretty broken. Reavers with shuttles and the SC2 engine are rather terrifying, likewise irradiate with SC2’s tighter clumping. Have the folks who made this left armour/attack types as they were in the respective games or did they make any wee tweaks there? There’s a lot I don’t know and some fights were kinda hard to gauge, but as I said I did enioy those show matches While that's true I feel like every race has stuff that's insanely hard to deal with and it somewhat balances out, for example while Reavers destroy sc2 bio in a straight up fight, drop play is WAY more effective against bw Protoss with no warpin/recall | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
Even with BW lings being slightly stronger I just don’t know how you survive the ling/bling phase. Plus melee units are way more slippery in SC2 so you can’t do body blocking nearly as effectively, whereas the Queen + sim city option is a very potent tool in doing this. But on the flipside I don’t see how you fix that without rebalancing for that specific matchup, which kind of defeats the purpose and spirit of the mod. May as well not sweat it too much and have a bit of craic | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
In fact it can be redesigned with slowing unit fights and adding 4th race With 4 races, you will get 10 matchs up, which can be amazing | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 18 2024 19:54 Charoisaur wrote: While that's true I feel like every race has stuff that's insanely hard to deal with and it somewhat balances out, for example while Reavers destroy sc2 bio in a straight up fight, drop play is WAY more effective against bw Protoss with no warpin/recall I also imagine Manlots/Dragoons aren’t particularly good against bio just with how SC2’s engine works. I can see this Reaver being insane in BW PvT, both PvPs and versus SC2 Zoig. But I dunno how the timings work out, with the latter it feels it could be a Disruptor drop on absolute steroids Also I think they’ve generally done a good job on models, some I don’t recognise from SC2 campaigns so I’m assuming some are made specially. But dagnabbit between the campaign Reaver, mods like Starbow and this is it just me or have they never nailed that crunchy punch that the sluggy boiz dish out in BW? Archons feel like absolute pussies too compared to their forebears I am absolutely splitting hairs here mind :p | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10314 Posts
Also, if Afreeca hosts more events, it can help promote both ASL and GSL. (SC2/GSL would be the biggest winner here). I'm glad that something like this has brought new life to SC and SC2 especially. I'd like to play it soon and try to experience the fun of discovering a new game with no established meta etc. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5410 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic613 Posts
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Comedy
453 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada112 Posts
Similar to SSBM, where people usually have a secondary character because with that many, there are bound to be worse matchups for each one | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20278 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4328 Posts
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Nasigil1
96 Posts
I don't think it should make it in to a serious competitive mode. Balancing 6 matchups in SC2 is already a impossible task even after 14 years, balancing 9 sc1 vs sc2 matchup is only going to be even more impossible. Once it starts to get into nitty gritty of timings and build orders down to seconds, there's no way you could properly balance all 9 matchups. For serious competitive tournaments with money on the line it will get ugly fast. Just keep it light hearted and fun. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On May 19 2024 20:08 Nasigil1 wrote: I think this mod should stay in the "fun phase'. But that I mean it functions as a carefree custom mode within friends, for content creators to have interesting games to cast, and for big tournaments to have a few show matches. I don't think it should make it in to a serious competitive mode. Balancing 6 matchups in SC2 is already a impossible task even after 14 years, balancing 9 sc1 vs sc2 matchup is only going to be even more impossible. Once it starts to get into nitty gritty of timings and build orders down to seconds, there's no way you could properly balance all 9 matchups. For serious competitive tournaments with money on the line it will get ugly fast. Just keep it light hearted and fun. I don't think they could make it a serious competitive mode even if they wanted to. There's such glaring balance issues and clashing design philosophies to address here in order for that to happen, that if they tried, the game would look radically different and probably lose all of its charm as a result of trying to actually balance it. That doesn't mean you can't have tournaments for it, the same way you can have tournaments for a game like Mario Kart. But no one should be taking it seriously as an actual competitive event. | ||
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ZeroByte13
747 Posts
On May 19 2024 20:08 Nasigil1 wrote: It's even harder - SC2 has only 3 not-mirror matchups, TvZ, TvP and PvZBalancing 6 matchups in SC2 is already a impossible task even after 14 years, balancing 9 sc1 vs sc2 matchup is only going to be even more impossible. With 6 races it becomes 15, as the rule for the number of non-mirror matchups for X factions is 1 + 2 +....+ (X-1), i.e. in this case it's 1+2+3+4+5 = 15. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On May 20 2024 03:27 ZeroByte13 wrote: It's even harder - SC2 has only 3 not-mirror matchups, TvZ, TvP and PvZ With 6 races it becomes 15, as the rule for the number of non-mirror matchups for X factions is 1 + 2 +....+ (X-1), i.e. in this case it's 1+2+3+4+5 = 15. The mod is SC1 vs SC2 so it only has crossgame match ups, thats why it has 9. | ||
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Kitai
United States868 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile156 Posts
On May 20 2024 09:30 Lexender wrote: The mod is SC1 vs SC2 so it only has crossgame match ups, thats why it has 9. No, it doesn't. You can play bw vs bw, sc2 vs sc2, bw vs sc2, random vs random | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3096 Posts
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
Mate, we balanced the game and did everything with sole focus on the top pros for like 10 years and look at the results. Viewers AND players like HUGE changes, they like the unknown. They like not knowing at all how the game will play out or what will be the best comps/builds. I know if they did MEGA balance changes just for the sake of completely resetting the game/meta, It would actually bring ton of life back in the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 20 2024 22:06 Snakestyle1 wrote: This shows us that the baby patches we had in sc2 for years are not it. We need to stop being so worried about "breaking the balance for the pros". Mate, we balanced the game and did everything with sole focus on the top pros for like 10 years and look at the results. Viewers AND players like HUGE changes, they like the unknown. They like not knowing at all how the game will play out or what will be the best comps/builds. I know if they did MEGA balance changes just for the sake of completely resetting the game/meta, It would actually bring ton of life back in the game. I’d imagine a hefty amount of the player base don’t want to have to completely relearn the game every couple of months, especially given how SC2’s user base skews a bit older than many. It’s always a fun phase when a game is new, or an expansion and people are discovering things and figuring out the game, but I don’t know if you want that to keep going in perpetuity | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20278 Posts
On May 22 2024 01:29 WombaT wrote: I’d imagine a hefty amount of the player base don’t want to have to completely relearn the game every couple of months, especially given how SC2’s user base skews a bit older than many. It’s always a fun phase when a game is new, or an expansion and people are discovering things and figuring out the game, but I don’t know if you want that to keep going in perpetuity There's value in the long term, figured out competition with only minor tweaks.. but i'm sure tons would love a secondary or seasonal ladder with major shakeups. I think it's also one of the best ways to look at which ideas and concepts may be worth gently introducing into the "main competitive game". | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2215 Posts
On May 20 2024 22:06 Snakestyle1 wrote: This shows us that the baby patches we had in sc2 for years are not it. We need to stop being so worried about "breaking the balance for the pros". Mate, we balanced the game and did everything with sole focus on the top pros for like 10 years and look at the results. Viewers AND players like HUGE changes, they like the unknown. They like not knowing at all how the game will play out or what will be the best comps/builds. I know if they did MEGA balance changes just for the sake of completely resetting the game/meta, It would actually bring ton of life back in the game. yeah dude, Progamers and high level amateurs really do love the unknown and not knowing how the game will play out... i mean srsly, think about it, having fun and not knowing shit is the exact reason why they play only 1 race their whole life and pretty much the same 3 builds for years... | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada112 Posts
Might make up for Queen inject, Mules and Boost throughout the game | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 24 2024 20:07 XenOsky wrote: yeah dude, Progamers and high level amateurs really do love the unknown and not knowing how the game will play out... i mean srsly, think about it, having fun and not knowing shit is the exact reason why they play only 1 race their whole life and pretty much the same 3 builds for years... The novel phase is super fun, when it’s the initial phase. I love that phase of discovery myself. When it’s a constant thing I don’t think it refreshes much enthusiasm in regular players. Especially as RTS skews a bit older these days. SC2 still vaguely resembles the SC2 it did a year, or two years ago or whatever. I can follow the pro scene, pop back in here and there, make a few minor tweaks and still largely pop back in after long periods of inactivity because the kind of core gameplay is pretty recognisable. This isn’t something I can do if the game radically changes all the time, and I really don’t have the time to relearn the game every time I want to return. I imagine I’m far, far from alone in this BW hasn’t been patched in literal decades to take one obvious example and it’s doing rather OK | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
I m actually not fan of the shuttle/scarabs because drop archons was still used in SC2. I would like replace disruptors by a catapult like in stormgate | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24310 Posts
On May 25 2024 17:49 Vision_ wrote: To me it s now obvious that the goons help protoss to hold the position and be able to control the ground. (but i would keep stalkers as i like their design (harassement units), their supply cost has to be increased from 2 to 3 with some tweaks (banshee supply cost = stalkers supply cost) I m actually not fan of the shuttle/scarabs because drop archons was still used in SC2. I would like replace disruptors by a catapult like in stormgate It could be cool but it’s resolutely not the point of this mod. BW versus SC2, that’s really it. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
I would replace hellions by firebat and stalkers by adept design. Then MAYBE, a fourth race design could be look ahead to robot/star wars/fallout ref (only robot no human, controlled by IA ?) . I think it s a real challenge | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary465 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10664 Posts
On May 27 2024 00:19 crbox wrote: Hey dumb fucks can you nuke my account thank you lol this made me chuckle but wtf -_- | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17899 Posts
On May 25 2024 05:07 ruhtraeel wrote: What if SC1 workers also mined 8 minerals like in SC1 instead of 5 Might make up for Queen inject, Mules and Boost throughout the game Don't they do that in the mod? Or maybe they just mine faster, working out to effectively the same buff? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On May 27 2024 19:34 Acrofales wrote: Don't they do that in the mod? Or maybe they just mine faster, working out to effectively the same buff? In SC:Evo BW workers do have a small mining buff through their speed, but I think the growing sentiment is that it is not enough to make up for the lack of SC2 economic tools. So if they were buffed to ALSO receive 8 minerals a trip, in addition to the speed buff they have, it might be what's needed to balance out the disparity in power that comes from MULES, Queens and Chronoboost. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9360 Posts
On May 27 2024 19:54 Vindicare605 wrote: In SC:Evo BW workers do have a small mining buff through their speed, but I think the growing sentiment is that it is not enough to make up for the lack of SC2 economic tools. So if they were buffed to ALSO receive 8 minerals a trip, in addition to the speed buff they have, it might be what's needed to balance out the disparity in power that comes from MULES, Queens and Chronoboost. On the other hand Sc1 has way stronger spellcasters, aoe. The mod is "balanced" very differently and players needs to abuse their races in different ways. I watched a lot of VOD's (probably 50+ high level games) and I am honestly more inclined to think Sc1 might be op. But need more time to figure it out. Don't think anyone atm has played enough high level games to have strong opinions on this. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On May 28 2024 02:33 Hider wrote: On the other hand Sc1 has way stronger spellcasters, aoe. The mod is "balanced" very differently and players needs to abuse their races in different ways. I watched a lot of VOD's (probably 50+ high level games) and I am honestly more inclined to think Sc1 might be op. But need more time to figure it out. Don't think anyone atm has played enough high level games to have strong opinions on this. The problem with that is that spellcasters especially Starcraft 1 spellcasters take a long time to get out and impact a game. Economic bonuses are constant, they affect every aspect of the game from start to finish. When you say "oh but your casters are better." That's basically saying that the understood win condition for a SC1 race is to get out spellcasters in sufficient numbers and use them effectively enough that the SC2 player can't come back. The obvious counter to that is, oh just kill them before they can get their spellcasters out. And because of the economic disparity between the two sides, the SC2 races are more than capable of being able to do that. As we should know by now in RTS games. Early and mid game balance supercedes late game balance except when there is a significant skill disparity, and right now SC2 races are just straight up better except in the late game. | ||
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caxilaw339
1 Post
Don’t get me wrong, this is the best damn thing since SC2 was announced. But I can’t imagine how crazy some of the things being brought from BW will be (like Dark Swarm, Reaver micro, Arbiter’s recall, Science Vessels, Vultures). Obviously, I could be over-exaggerating. Only time will tell, but one thing is for sure: I haven’t been this excited in YEARS!! | ||
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Piste
6167 Posts
It is a fun idea to add in one tournament, but I rather watch high level games in a balanced game. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
Here my point of view list (without explication or details on his impact) Dragoons (+ground control for protoss) Arbiter recall (instead of recall to nexus) Vultures or stingers with mines (+ground control, better idea compared to single mines) Firebats Lockdown of Ghosts (interesting cf. Cure games, not sure because so many spells looks like to Lockdown) Infested terrans Hydralisks T1 (Banelings upgrade move to T2 Lair) Which tools from BW would you implement to SC2 ? | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1010 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17899 Posts
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