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will look forward to it when they have to do additional patch to adjust for TvP because this patch didn't do enough just because they listened to whining reddit balance whiners about stuff like widow mines that would affect TvZ way more than TvP just for sake for 1 build (mine drop) that affects lower level Protoss on ladder. Overall patch has been zerg buff more than anything when Protoss was the one lacking.
It's strange how best performing race gets compensatory patches when historically, stuff like Raven (maru) and reaper (Byun) has been nerfed due to a single player performance-but zerg has been dominating premier tournaments while protoss having nearly no presence. I get they need to be careful because Protoss is a very strong ladder race, but shouldn't the game be balanced around toppest levels?
Stuff like buffing infestor range +1 is something I don't get when majority of winners of tournaments have been Zerg. Just nerf terran/zerg accordingly and bring up Protoss. Ladder might be more protoss dominanted, but when hasn't it been? It's just how Protoss is with it being stronger at lower non-pro levels. It's just T and Z at SC2 tourneys now.
Like it would make absolutely no sense to buff Terran in BW and TY brought up comparison witih BW Terran and Zerg.
and if people are gonna ask where he talked about it, its around 30-40min marks in this vod : https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/119042257
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On March 28 2024 06:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 03:20 Athenau wrote:
I don't know how you can call the Cyclone changes anything but a nerf. The tradeoff is 18% less DPS for 18% more HP, and a 2.8 second lock-on cooldown vs no cooldown. This is a unit meant for harassment and contesting map control. It isn't a tanking unit. There's absolutely no reason to "tank" with 125/50 cyclones when you have 100 mineral hellbats available.
As such it is unambiguously worse. It does less damage and kites less effectively before.
Edit: Heromarine is trying out the new cyclones and, surprise, they suck. Good points. Thinking about it now, they were reducing the base speed / upgrade speed because the no cooldown lock on was so good. Now that the lock on has a cooldown, why not give it a little more range, or buff the speed upgrade to give more speed than it does now? If the problem is early game cyclones, and bio players using cyclones (since the goal was to strengthen Mech and make it more viable, Bio was fine), then sure nerf it early on and gate more of its power behind the upgrade that Bio players would have to go out of their way to get. The idea of giving it better damage scaling with upgrades into the lategame was good, now it's gone and it's totally just a nerf. They could have given it +1 damage (+1 vs Mechanical) per upgrade. They could have even given it +1 base damage to make up for it now not being able to do as much damage due to the worse kiting.
There's no point in proposing solutions if the balance council doesn't see this as a problem. Since they're supposed to be a bunch of pros and ex-pros, it's implausible that they don't recognize the consequences of their changes, so one is left with the conclusion that this is intentional, just like making a bunch of changes that affect TvZ in a patch that's supposed to fix TvP is intentional.
TL;DR version: Don't assume the balance council is operating in good faith.
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On March 28 2024 08:33 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2024 06:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 28 2024 03:20 Athenau wrote:
I don't know how you can call the Cyclone changes anything but a nerf. The tradeoff is 18% less DPS for 18% more HP, and a 2.8 second lock-on cooldown vs no cooldown. This is a unit meant for harassment and contesting map control. It isn't a tanking unit. There's absolutely no reason to "tank" with 125/50 cyclones when you have 100 mineral hellbats available.
As such it is unambiguously worse. It does less damage and kites less effectively before.
Edit: Heromarine is trying out the new cyclones and, surprise, they suck. Good points. Thinking about it now, they were reducing the base speed / upgrade speed because the no cooldown lock on was so good. Now that the lock on has a cooldown, why not give it a little more range, or buff the speed upgrade to give more speed than it does now? If the problem is early game cyclones, and bio players using cyclones (since the goal was to strengthen Mech and make it more viable, Bio was fine), then sure nerf it early on and gate more of its power behind the upgrade that Bio players would have to go out of their way to get. The idea of giving it better damage scaling with upgrades into the lategame was good, now it's gone and it's totally just a nerf. They could have given it +1 damage (+1 vs Mechanical) per upgrade. They could have even given it +1 base damage to make up for it now not being able to do as much damage due to the worse kiting. There's no point in proposing solutions if the balance council doesn't see this as a problem. Since they're supposed to be a bunch of pros and ex-pros, it's implausible that they don't recognize the consequences of their changes, so one is left with the conclusion that this is intentional, just like making a bunch of changes that affect TvZ in a patch that's supposed to fix TvP is intentional. TL;DR version: Don't assume the balance council is operating in good faith.
It's really unfortunate. It's going to be so boring if TvZ just goes to mainly bio and mech goes back to being niche and weak. And if mech TvP goes back to unviable outside of mixing it up on the occasional map that it's decent on.
At this point I have to wonder if the current cyclone is even more desirable to me than the previous cyclone before it turned into a warhound on skates.
Nerfing Libs, WMs, and Cyclones could have led to a small Hellion/Hellbat buff targetted at Mech play (Bio players don't make more than 6-8 Hellions outside of the rare 2 Fact BFH opener which is pretty much a Mech opener). But instead we get nothing... meanwhile Zerg keep getting more fun Overlord shenanigans.
I was actually so motivated to grinding and playing SC2 again (finally got back to masters MMR lol), and now my motivation is killed. At least Armory gas is lower and Infestor/BL is overall still weaker than before. And maybe opening with a few Cyclone vs Protoss is still a good option for Mech. The nerf seems more noticeable when you get to mid-sized armies where you want to be constantly kiting and locking on.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I dont like improving cyclones, they will just create more troubles early game to protoss.
But the rest of the patch is good!
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It looks to me like Terran gameplay would be focused on the Bio timing push more than ever, those 2-2 and 3-3 timing on 3-4 bases would be brutal.
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On March 28 2024 14:19 tigera6 wrote:
It looks to me like Terran gameplay would be focused on the Bio timing push more than ever, those 2-2 and 3-3 timing on 3-4 bases would be brutal.
Looks to me like zergs should just skip this season
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They should've probably gated the Cyclone behind the cheaper Armory and had the scaling for the upgrades to try for mech viability with a 15 dmg Cyclone.
And not had the Z,T buffs.
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On March 28 2024 08:11 jinjin5000 wrote:will look forward to it when they have to do additional patch to adjust for TvP because this patch didn't do enough just because they listened to whining reddit balance whiners about stuff like widow mines that would affect TvZ way more than TvP just for sake for 1 build (mine drop) that affects lower level Protoss on ladder. Overall patch has been zerg buff more than anything when Protoss was the one lacking. It's strange how best performing race gets compensatory patches when historically, stuff like Raven (maru) and reaper (Byun) has been nerfed due to a single player performance-but zerg has been dominating premier tournaments while protoss having nearly no presence. I get they need to be careful because Protoss is a very strong ladder race, but shouldn't the game be balanced around toppest levels? Stuff like buffing infestor range +1 is something I don't get when majority of winners of tournaments have been Zerg. Just nerf terran/zerg accordingly and bring up Protoss. Ladder might be more protoss dominanted, but when hasn't it been? It's just how Protoss is with it being stronger at lower non-pro levels. It's just T and Z at SC2 tourneys now. Like it would make absolutely no sense to buff Terran in BW and TY brought up comparison witih BW Terran and Zerg. and if people are gonna ask where he talked about it, its around 30-40min marks in this vod : https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/119042257
I'm interested in what he's saying, but it's in korean
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The idea and Terran should have 2 play style either bio or mech should die. But mech was viable in BW is a weak argument. Different games
Imagine if Protoss say they want 2 play style viable either pure gateway or pure Robo.
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On March 29 2024 05:08 Mmakorea wrote:
The idea and Terran should have 2 play style either bio or mech should die. But mech was viable in BW is a weak argument. Different games
I also remember that in the only matchup where both bio and mech were viable, people favoured bio heavily as being more fun and more dynamic.
And I say this as a Fantasy fan.
I have no desire to see more mech.
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Northern Ireland25665 Posts
On March 29 2024 07:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2024 05:08 Mmakorea wrote:
The idea and Terran should have 2 play style either bio or mech should die. But mech was viable in BW is a weak argument. Different games I also remember that in the only matchup where both bio and mech were viable, people favoured bio heavily as being more fun and more dynamic. And I say this as a Fantasy fan. I have no desire to see more mech.
Mech in SC2 is just a slightly less mobile deathball, and people are pretty vocal on hating deathballs.
People hated metas like heavy swarmhost, or airtoss, which to me only really differ from what folks consider mech by virtue of the race employing them not being Terran.
I love mech and its intricacies in BW, but I just don’t think it translates as well to SC2. Things are less spread, it’s way easier to move whole armies around, the eco buildup is different etc etc.
Mech is either too powerful, which it basically never is, or it’s too weak and has people complaining it’s not viable.
There are certain elements missing IMO that make mech so interesting in BW, but not necessarily an easy fit for SC2. I think unit control is a big one, another huge one is the eco asymmetry is way less pronounced.
In BW you can have a Toss up multiple bases on a Terran and trading cost-inefficiently trying to find holes in the defence. Maxing out takes a lot longer, and you have a lot of anti-mech plays you can make with basic units. Zealot bombs, or lings/zealots dragging mines etc.
In SC2 the biggest eco disparity across all matchups is being conventionally expected to be up one base. As tanks don’t overkill their friendly fire is much less exploitable.
I think it’s why you see units that, while not officially designated so, are basically anti-mech units. The viper being a big one, Tempests being another, although with that air ball role.
If Terran could reliably get up a solid mech ball that’s within a reasonable supply gap, decent ups, Zerg and Toss’ basic ground forces essentially just melt, in a manner they don’t in BW.
Marine/tank mirror makes for some damn fantastic StarCraft, but I think ultimately mech probably should suck in the non-mirrors, because the alternative is likely that it’s too strong and a frustrating style to play/watch if you’re on the other side.
In an ideal world it should be a viable choice and something stylistically different, absolutely. But it’s been over a decade and SC2 has really struggled to hit a sweet spot where it’s an equivalently good choice over bio, and not too powerful outright.
Some may consider it a false dichotomy, although I think we’ve had long enough to maybe consider it a real one, but if the choices are a mech that is too weak, or too strong I think the better call is probably the former.
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On March 29 2024 05:08 Mmakorea wrote:
The idea and Terran should have 2 play style either bio or mech should die. But mech was viable in BW is a weak argument. Different games
Imagine if Protoss say they want 2 play style viable either pure gateway or pure Robo.
It would indeed be dumb if Protoss could mass pure Robo, but thankfully the races aren't designed that way and can't be compared 1:1 like that. Let's look at how their production and upgrades are structured and designed:
Terran production + upgrades is split into Barracks, Factory, and Starport. The production+tech is kind of combined.
Protoss production has a Gateway base, and has access to 3 different tech trees for support.
Upgrades are split between ground and air, so there is overlap, hence no need to go pure Robo or pure Templar.
Zerg is very fluid since all can be produced from larvae with the right tech building, but upgrades are separated a little into melee, ranged, and air. As a result, Zergs can pick from different core compositions like Ling Bling and add Ultras later, or Roach Ravager or Hydra Lurker, or go for more air heavy comp like mass Mutas.
SC2 has made lots of progress in making every tech path and unit usable in some way. For example, Protoss can open with Robo, Stargate, or Twilight as first tech in all 3 MUs, to some degree. They can also choose to get Colossus/Disruptor for their first splash, or Archon/HT or even DTs, or Tempest/Carrier support (Classic does this sometimes) or even rush to Skytoss in weird niche cases.
For Terran, they should be able to do Bio (Barracks based) or Mech (Factory based) because the production/upgrades are split that way, with units from the other buildings as support.
For Zerg, they should be very versatile and able to fluidly change between unit comps.
In SC1, Terran couldn't go Bio and Mech all 3 MUs. This is more of a flaw than intended game design.
Protoss's 3 tech paths weren't as viable as openers in as many MUs. For example Scouts sucked, no phoenix or oracle opener and no ability to rush to skytoss or build Carriers/Tempests as your first big tech support unit.
Zerg was more limited too, for example in ZvZ it was just Muta wars, going ground/hydras wasn't good enough.
SC2 allowed each race to use their units/production/tech to the fullest, but Mech in particular has been very disregarded over the years, even though with the right situations it has led to very fun and exciting matches (Maru vs Stats with cyclone Mech, Ty vs sOs right before his military leave, or Bio vs Mech in TvT in general).
SC2 devs have mentioned trying to make every unit viable/usable in every MU, and I think that's one of the great things about SC2 compared to BW. I support making getting Tempest as Protoss's first big tech support unit more viable, because I think it'd be cool and it's almost there already with Classic using it sometimes. I also support making Protoss have more openers other than getting Twilight+Blink most of the time in PvT, and same with almost always opening Stargate oracle in PvZ. I support Zerg being able to tech to lots of different options, which I feel they are able to do very commonly in games. So, I simply support Terran also having increased variety in going both Bio and Mech in all 3 MUs. Ideally, all races have the most tech options and unit comps to choose from, which just makes the other races also have more options to choose from in response. Win win!
Also, i think being able to go mass gateway is a cool style. I think TvT in WoL being able to be pure Bio, marine tank, or Mech was also really cool. Anyone remember the trinity of MMA (Marine Tank) vs Polt (Pure Bio) vs MVP (Mech)?
Different styles allow for more people to be able to identify with and enjoy playing a game in a way that fits their personality. Variety is good! Only making a game with a standard composition and standard strategies gets stale for most gamers much more quickly.
I'm not saying Mech needs to be played 50% of pro games. I think it's a reasonable to ask if Mech can increase from 0.1% usage in TvP to 5-10% in TvP. We've probably seen more protoss rush skytoss or get tempest/carrier as their first big tech option, than players going Mech TvP in GSL since 2010.
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In both WoL and HotS mech was both cool and strong, though I always hated the Hellbat. If mech isn't working it's because of the new adhd philosophy to SC2, everything needs to be fast-paced and not drag things out.
Mech would only make sense if the army is more cost efficient, but atm Bio is one of the most cost efficient comps, and it doesn't make sense to go for a faster paced mech, when you can just go Bio. So the homogenization has really hurt the amount of playstyles to go for, this is despite that every upgrade has been made cheaper and that the tech tree is really lenient (everything is really easy to get and production facilities provide a slew of new unit options.)
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On March 30 2024 19:45 ejozl wrote:
In both WoL and HotS mech was both cool and strong, though I always hated the Hellbat. If mech isn't working it's because of the new adhd philosophy to SC2, everything needs to be fast-paced and not drag things out.
Mech would only make sense if the army is more cost efficient, but atm Bio is one of the most cost efficient comps, and it doesn't make sense to go for a faster paced mech, when you can just go Bio. So the homogenization has really hurt the amount of playstyles to go for, this is despite that every upgrade has been made cheaper and that the tech tree is really lenient (everything is really easy to get and production facilities provide a slew of new unit options.)
This is the sanest "mech viable" take I've read. I really mean it. Bio is too good for mech to possibly be as good. I hope the balance cabal realizes that you are right soon. I will print, frame and hang the patch notes on my wall, if they ever address this issue.
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mech is not "cool" its boring AF to play against and watch. Its a discgrace to the terran race
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On April 03 2024 09:13 chrusher97 wrote:
mech is not "cool" its boring AF to play against and watch. Its a discgrace to the terran race
That's cus it sucks currently so usually mech just turtles until it dies when it can't defend a full on frontal attack even with fortifications, or dies when it tries to move out cus it's too flimsy and not strong enough.
So, it should have design and balance changes to make it good and fun and cool 
Imagine if bio wasn't cost efficient and was bad. What kind of strategies could you pull off? It'd be boring and uncool too.
Everything in SC2 has gotten faster faster faster. Mech hasn't, no wonder it sucks and isn't as fun and cool as other styles that got a lot of cool stuff.
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Mech has gotten faster with Cyclones that even received a speed upg. Banshee got a speed upg, BC's got teleportation, Raven is not really a mech unit anymore, but it has gotten super speedy. There is even the Transformers upgrade.
Another thing that skews Terran towards Bio play is the MULE. They tried to make the MULE able to gather Vespine at the start of LotV, but decided against it.
The MULE gives you additional minerals and the Marine is so superior to the Hellion that it's not really a competition. The new Cyclone being so mineral heavy does however make it easier for Mech to exist.
Removing the Bio tag from the Hell bat would be a start, then they wouldn't get crushed by Archons. I think a Medivac should also be able to carry 4 of them. There are other changes you could do as well, but this would be a great start to make the MULE synergize with Mech.
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On April 03 2024 20:21 ejozl wrote:
Mech has gotten faster with Cyclones that even received a speed upg. Banshee got a speed upg, BC's got teleportation, Raven is not really a mech unit anymore, but it has gotten super speedy. There is even the Transformers upgrade.
Another thing that skews Terran towards Bio play is the MULE. They tried to make the MULE able to gather Vespine at the start of LotV, but decided against it.
The MULE gives you additional minerals and the Marine is so superior to the Hellion that it's not really a competition. The new Cyclone being so mineral heavy does however make it easier for Mech to exist.
Removing the Bio tag from the Hell bat would be a start, then they wouldn't get crushed by Archons. I think a Medivac should also be able to carry 4 of them. There are other changes you could do as well, but this would be a great start to make the MULE synergize with Mech.
True, i forgot about all those xD
And yeah, we could really buff Hellions/Hellbats a little! There are ways to buff it so it helps mostly Mech play and doesn't really change it for Bio.
Sucks that Hellbats were actually fine and plenty helpful in HotS in TvP, but with the new economy, Protoss can go mass gateway way too easily, so Hellbats are no longer good enough...
would be really nice if Hellbats/Hellions got a buff.
And yeah i don't know if it'd be a problem to be able to load up 4 Hellbats anymore. They nerfed that pretty hard early HotS, when it used to do more dmg per hit too, but i feel it'd be able to be defended today. (It wouldn't be much different than evacuating workers vs WMs). In general it'd make it more viable to use Hellbat + Medivac styles for fighting and dropping on the opponent's army too, which is pretty fun and cool I think. A way to make mech stronger without straight buffing stats.
I wonder if they could play around a Hellbat upgrade, similar to how they gated the WM invisibility to Drilling Claws now. Maybe the Hellbat upgrade would let you transform Hellions to Hellbats, and you're allowed to load up 4 into a Medivac, or the Hellbat just has stronger stats than it does now. Or they could make it so that Transformation Servos also allows you to load up 4 Hellbats in a Medivac.
But ofc the other change is just make Blue Flame scale better for Hellions/Hellbats. For Hellions it can give a little more damage vs non-Light instead of 0 for example.
At least we have the Cyclone which is better than nothing... Banshee speed is also very helpful vs Chargelots and mass gateway since it effectively increases your dps slightly more and allows you to cover Chargelot harass even easier.
Really sucks that Raven isn't really a mech spellcaster anymore, now Bio has 2 spellcasters =/. So ofc it's hard to make mech stronger without buffing bio too...
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It especially sucks that the Raven is Bio only, because Terran only has 2 spell caster units. There was room for them to implement a Factory based spell caster for LotV, but they wanted the Herc instead, which then was too similar to the Hellbat, which then got changed to the Cyclone.
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