Why no 4 player maps?

On February 15 2024 22:25 Harris1st wrote:


Short answer: Yes they were a problem. SC2 starts quite a bit faster than BW and if you scout the wrong direction you fall behind (much more than in BW). Only 4 player maps with forced cross spawn were a thing for a while but that defeats the purpose

On February 15 2024 22:40 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:


It would still be cool to have those though i know you're just saying that's the general reason why they don't make them

Because when there's 4 player maps, it automatically means there's far away expo options, ones that are not only there in the open by themselves, but grouped together (another spawn's main + natural, with the ramps/chokes too)

And those ramps/chokes help actually hold those far bases with smaller amounts of units (opponent has to force their way into a cost inefficient way)

And that pushes the gameplay to be more of that spread out gameplay LotV was aiming for and allows units like Disruptor, Liberator, Lurker to shine (similar to BW), small skirmishes around the map, and slower pace (not as in slower gameplay, but as in there's more of a back and forth with more chances to comeback, and harder to end the game suddenly)

Allowing more viable choices to expand to those far bases instead of simply taking the expos directly adjacent/near to you, leads to gameplay being less deathball and less "my side vs your side", you can even do things like spread some production to those corner bases to make it easier to launch harass or build small forces to attack or defend those bases (a common thing in WC2 and many other RTS games), you can think of it like making proxying buildings being a viable strategy past the early game.

Having more spread out bases and gameplay really makes the game much more strategically complex, varied, and deeper, there is much more weight behind the amount of time it takes for units to travel, intercepting "supply chains" of reinforcements, how to choke out your opponent (it's no longer as simple as base trading and killing all the bases already clumped up on their side)

Ofc this can all be achieved with applying these map design elements to 2 player maps though

In the new/recent TL map contest, finally I started seeing some of those kinda of map elements, it's been years since those have been phased out. Things like some far expos having really small chokes (such as that 1 map where it has a small choke + blocked by destructible Xel Naga tower), or a very long and narrow choke into a walled expo so that you have a great choke to defend vs ground attacks, while it also has an acceleration zone on the choke meaning you can still go in and out of the base without taking too long.

I remember a few years ago when Zerg was OP, i saw the reason (or at least the reason people said around TL) for making players' 5th base and onwards much more open and facing the opponent, is to make it easier to push and threaten Zerg's 5th. But ofc this also makes it harder for Terran and Protoss to take their 5th and later bases...

IMO, having far expo choices with small chokes, ramps, and other defensible features far benefits Terran and Protoss more than Zerg. It allows them to scale better into the lategame and match Zerg, while also allowing maps to be bigger and more epic.

Radhuset for example has potential and is epic, but why are all the far away bases completely open??
It favors Zerg that way cus it's so hard to wall off and defend those far bases vs Zerg. If some of them had chokes or ramps then the map might not favor Zerg in macro games anymore, it might be pretty equal and fair.

Look at Golden Wall, it has many far bases that are either tucked into the very corner of the map, or some forward center bases with ramps and chokes that you can fortify and threaten the opponent from that position.

BW maps have long had far expo options with chokes, ramps, etc. Don't know why SC2 just phased them out after the early years and never went back. It just promotes deathball play because it makes it easy to A-move into a base and take it out with your fully army, and similarly you need to deathball your army to defend it because you don't have any terrain or anything allowing you to at delegate a small amount of army/fortification to at least make the opponent trade inefficiently if they try to attack it straight on (vs picking apart the defense in a careful way with drops, blinding cloud, etc.)