EPTApparently there's some confusion as if it's a bug or an intended feature, but in any case, quite a meaningful buff to protoss for now.
Colossus receive an unannounced patch (+ range)
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
Apparently there's some confusion as if it's a bug or an intended feature, but in any case, quite a meaningful buff to protoss for now.
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Poopi
France12762 Posts
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QOGQOG
830 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3097 Posts
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THERIDDLER
Canada116 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Maybe I'd buff the immortal. Or give him an upgrade. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16647 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On July 16 2023 02:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Imo, Protoss needs a small buff of some kind. Agreed but the collossus would be the last unit I'd want to see buffed (well maybe after the carrier). Would much prefer buffs to Immortals, Warpprism, maybe even lategame upgrade for Zealots and Stalkers. | ||
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bulldozer06701
115 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
Would also like to see Sentries take a more prominent role in the meta, especially against Zerg. Wouldn't mind something along the lines of a slight improvement to Guardian Shield to aid Protoss against Terran and making FFs require 2 Corrosive Biles to take down, a stronger Sentry would be good for the meta. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24494 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1478 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1478 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On July 16 2023 09:18 CicadaSC wrote: Has anyone actually tested this in an actual game to prove it's authenticity and not just a bug? Does colossus actually get the +3 range now...? Let's see what it looks like in game versus what it says Yea I have kind of the same question like is this a real thing because I don't see any patch notes for anything so I'm wondering if this is just a...fortunate bug? Either way, buff Protoss! | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Pandain
United States12986 Posts
On July 16 2023 04:44 Charoisaur wrote: . . . Would much prefer buffs to Immortals . . . Immortals definitely by far most boring unit in the game, would be cool to give them some kind of new ability to be honest. The "super shields" thing was kind of cool but it's not very spectator friendly. | ||
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QOGQOG
830 Posts
On July 16 2023 10:13 Pandain wrote: Immortals definitely by far most boring unit in the game Roaches would like a word. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1478 Posts
On July 16 2023 10:13 Pandain wrote: Immortals definitely by far most boring unit in the game. immortals are cool because of how well they pair with warp prism | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17628 Posts
On July 16 2023 08:26 Beelzebub1 wrote: I'm actually good with a slight buff to the Colossus, it's an old unit that used to be the end all be all but over time it's relevance has kind of diminished. Since Zerg already has a very good way of dealing with them through Vipers and Protoss seems to be struggling a bit vs. Terran, I don't really see much of a reason that the Colossus couldn't stand a buff. Would also like to see Sentries take a more prominent role in the meta, especially against Zerg. Wouldn't mind something along the lines of a slight improvement to Guardian Shield to aid Protoss against Terran and making FFs require 2 Corrosive Biles to take down, a stronger Sentry would be good for the meta. Yeah Colossus needs a buff specifically against zerg somehow Abducting massive units should cost more energy lol | ||
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__Coin_Ciden_Ce__
11 Posts
But it functioned like a time bomb. Now it exploded. Messy Blizzard management. No one maintains the game now. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 16 2023 01:44 [Phantom] wrote: Honestly, good. the colossus might be boring, but if you're nerfing the disruptor you need to compensate somehow. I think it's a decent change. Maybe I'd buff the immortal. Or give him an upgrade. The Immortal and the collosus have two totally different roles on the battlefield as well as totally different counter units. If you INTENDED to buff the Collosus why would you buff the Immortal instead? That doesn't make any sense. If they were buffing the Collosus to make up for the Disruptor nerfs from last patch that makes a lot more sense since the Collosus and the Disruptor have competing roles as anti ground splash damage and zoning. They have some different counter units (Vipers still counter them both for example) but not all of them. They're also both on the same tier of tech, while the Immortal can be gotten earlier, which makes this buff if it's intended to be a buff a late game buff not an early game buff. Personally, I actually think this Collosus buff is a good idea, and I fucking hate the Collosus as a unit. Two of the main Collosus counter units: Broodlords and Vikings got buffed recently, The Raven change was a MASSIVE buff for Terran against Collosus and the Hydralisk which the Collosus is meant to counter, also got buffed. The Collosus was in a bad place where it was being countered more easily, while being needed more often against the new suped up Hydralisks Zerg has been fielding. It makes sense to give them a small boost especially since Disruptors also got nerfed in the last patch. I don't like the unit much, but it makes sense to me why it more than any other unit on the Protoss roster would be receiving attention. I'd personally rather just revert the Disruptor nerfs, but Blizzard NEVER reverts nerfs if they can avoid it, they'll do anything else other than admit they made a mistake with a change and then change it back, unless it's a Bunker change anyway. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On July 16 2023 17:00 Vindicare605 wrote: The Immortal and the collosus have two totally different roles on the battlefield as well as totally different counter units. If you INTENDED to buff the Collosus why would you buff the Immortal instead? That doesn't make any sense. If they were buffing the Collosus to make up for the Disruptor nerfs from last patch that makes a lot more sense since the Collosus and the Disruptor have competing roles as anti ground splash damage and zoning. They have some different counter units (Vipers still counter them both for example) but not all of them. They're also both on the same tier of tech, while the Immortal can be gotten earlier, which makes this buff if it's intended to be a buff a late game buff not an early game buff. Personally, I actually think this Collosus buff is a good idea, and I fucking hate the Collosus as a unit. Two of the main Collosus counter units: Broodlords and Vikings got buffed recently, The Raven change was a MASSIVE buff for Terran against Collosus and the Hydralisk which the Collosus is meant to counter, also got buffed. The Collosus was in a bad place where it was being countered more easily, while being needed more often against the new suped up Hydralisks Zerg has been fielding. It makes sense to give them a small boost especially since Disruptors also got nerfed in the last patch. I don't like the unit much, but it makes sense to me why it more than any other unit on the Protoss roster would be receiving attention. I'd personally rather just revert the Disruptor nerfs, but Blizzard NEVER reverts nerfs if they can avoid it, they'll do anything else other than admit they made a mistake with a change and then change it back, unless it's a Bunker change anyway. Honestly, I don't think the Disruptor nerf was the problem with the patch, they are still doing their job more than fine and Protoss is struggling much more in the early-mid game phase than in lategame where Disruptors come into play. The combination of Raven buff and shield battery nerf was the much bigger issue with the last patch and better/cheaper immortals would help Toss overcome that | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On July 16 2023 10:13 Pandain wrote: Immortals definitely by far most boring unit in the game, would be cool to give them some kind of new ability to be honest. The "super shields" thing was kind of cool but it's not very spectator friendly. They aren't the most exciting units but not every unit needs to be. And unlike collossus, immortals work without the entire army being built around them | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Buffing the range on a straight up a-move deathball unit of the race that is already ridiculously overpopulating the lower echelons of tournament play is asinine. But who knows if it is even intended  | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Agree with that, and Roaches are still less boring than Corruptors. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24494 Posts
On July 16 2023 20:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Agree with that, and Roaches are still less boring than Corruptors. Roach wars with hit squads and burrowed ambushes in general do give the Roach some interesting versatility They’re not always sexy but stock units do make the foundation of a good RTS. Personally I think it’s the relative fragility of the Protoss stock units and reliance on various tech options that makes them so tough to balance out in either direction. At present at least in top level games, especially in PvT Toss seem to be having a hard time transitioning, getting that 3rd/4th up and running and their tech online, getting that sufficient AoE. I dunno how you retool that without making them too strong lower down the chain mind. Perhaps a Collosus with more range so you can chip away at sieges from a defensive posture is one option that might help, but perhaps not and it creates other problems elsewhere. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On July 16 2023 22:48 WombaT wrote: Roach wars with hit squads and burrowed ambushes in general do give the Roach some interesting versatility They’re not always sexy but stock units do make the foundation of a good RTS. Personally I think it’s the relative fragility of the Protoss stock units and reliance on various tech options that makes them so tough to balance out in either direction. At present at least in top level games, especially in PvT Toss seem to be having a hard time transitioning, getting that 3rd/4th up and running and their tech online, getting that sufficient AoE. I dunno how you retool that without making them too strong lower down the chain mind. Perhaps a Collosus with more range so you can chip away at sieges from a defensive posture is one option that might help, but perhaps not and it creates other problems elsewhere. You buff the Sentry imo, a stronger Guardian Shield (maybe a speed buff to units in it) and strengthening FF (making it require 2 biles) would go a long way to improving Protoss. Protoss seems to lack a way to really be out on the map doing any form of damage or control unless they open Stargate. Plus, buffing the Sentry is not going to make Protoss any more A-move friendly because you're only buffing 1 click and forget ability, FF requires alot of skill to use well. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On July 16 2023 23:34 Beelzebub1 wrote: You buff the Sentry imo, a stronger Guardian Shield (maybe a speed buff to units in it) and strengthening FF (making it require 2 biles) would go a long way to improving Protoss. Protoss seems to lack a way to really be out on the map doing any form of damage or control unless they open Stargate. Plus, buffing the Sentry is not going to make Protoss any more A-move friendly because you're only buffing 1 click and forget ability, FF requires alot of skill to use well. Agreed here. The double bile ff change is one I've wanted to see for a long time. Buffing guardian shield runs a small risk of improving some gateway allins that are already strong enough IMO, but many of those don't want to invest much gas in a sentry so it's probably fine too. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On July 17 2023 00:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Agreed here. The double bile ff change is one I've wanted to see for a long time. Buffing guardian shield runs a small risk of improving some gateway allins that are already strong enough IMO, but many of those don't want to invest much gas in a sentry so it's probably fine too. They are? I rarely see Gateway allins working at the top level nowadays | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 16 2023 18:01 Charoisaur wrote: Honestly, I don't think the Disruptor nerf was the problem with the patch, they are still doing their job more than fine and Protoss is struggling much more in the early-mid game phase than in lategame where Disruptors come into play. The combination of Raven buff and shield battery nerf was the much bigger issue with the last patch and better/cheaper immortals would help Toss overcome that I agree that the battery overcharge nerf is probably the main reason Protoss is struggling even worse than they were before, especially in conjunction with the buffs that Zerg and Terran got. My primary question sticks though. If the buff to the Collosus is intended, what makes anyone think that buffing Immortals is what should be done instead? There's no logic to that as the units serve completely different roles on the battlefield. If you want to make an argument as to why Immortals need to be buffed that's a whole separate conversation, and honestly I think they are functioning just fine on the Protoss roster. Protoss has other issues, and I don't want Immortals to get to a place where they are a catch all for literally everything even more than they arguably already are. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 16 2023 18:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Any protoss buff needs to be one that only helps the likes of herO / Classic / MaxPax etc. Buffing the range on a straight up a-move deathball unit of the race that is already ridiculously overpopulating the lower echelons of tournament play is asinine. But who knows if it is even intended Unfortunately there's not many ways to do that with the way Protoss is designed. I completely agree with you, but what Protoss needs is a fundamental redesign to make it more rewarding to play at higher levels and harder to play at lower levels, and we're not going to get that with a balance patch. So if all we have are tweaks on stats and abilities, we're stuck working with Protoss as its designed now, and its fundamental design is deeply flawed. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2199 Posts
On July 16 2023 00:56 Poopi wrote: Oh so that’s what Rotti was talking about during goblin vs ByuN. Hopefully it’s just a bug and they revert it back, buffing an a-move unit / unit comp is a bad idea Yes we really need to keep the incredibly dominant and overpowered Protoss race in check, otherwise, one of them might make the ro16 at a premier tournament real soon!! | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 17 2023 00:57 SharkStarcraft wrote: Yes we really need to keep the incredibly dominant and overpowered Protoss race in check, otherwise, one of them might make the ro16 at a premier tournament real soon!! I significantly doubt this change is going to be very meaningful for Protoss winrates in tournaments. Collosus are only effective in timing attacks at the pro level. Vipers make them almost completely irrelevant in late game PvZ, and their immobility and high supply cost make them a liability on large maps against Terran multipronged harassment not to mention late game air units. Incidentally this change WILL have a much more felt impact on the lower leagues because Collosus are much more powerful there. Therein lies the problem with Protoss design that is causing it to have such a miserable run at the higher levels. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On July 17 2023 00:52 Vindicare605 wrote: Unfortunately there's not many ways to do that with the way Protoss is designed. I completely agree with you, but what Protoss needs is a fundamental redesign to make it more rewarding to play at higher levels and harder to play at lower levels, and we're not going to get that with a balance patch. So if all we have are tweaks on stats and abilities, we're stuck working with Protoss as its designed now, and its fundamental design is deeply flawed. "but what Protoss needs is a fundamental redesign" Not only is that totally out of the question, but I also respectfully disagree. Targeted nerfs and buffs can have big ramifications in this game. While the openings are pretty stagnant with SG being the overwhelmingly more stable and safe way to play ZvP, the Queen Transfusion nerf really made the match up feel alot more balanced overall. And as bad as Adept openings are, top Protoss can still get usually some drone kills and/or secure a third. Hero and Dark have played like 10 + series over the last few months and he always seems to bop Dark with an aggressive Twilight opening, even if SG as said is way more stable. On that note, it's an older game, eventually there is going to be an optimal opening and an optimal way to play a MU so I don't get too bent out of shape that the openings are kind of stale. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 17 2023 01:02 Beelzebub1 wrote: "but what Protoss needs is a fundamental redesign" Not only is that totally out of the question, but I also respectfully disagree. Targeted nerfs and buffs can have big ramifications in this game. While the openings are pretty stagnant with SG being the overwhelmingly more stable and safe way to play ZvP, the Queen Transfusion nerf really made the match up feel alot more balanced overall. And as bad as Adept openings are, top Protoss can still get usually some drone kills and/or secure a third. Hero and Dark have played like 10 + series over the last few months and he always seems to bop Dark with an aggressive Twilight opening, even if SG as said is way more stable. On that note, it's an older game, eventually there is going to be an optimal opening and an optimal way to play a MU so I don't get too bent out of shape that the openings are kind of stale. I'm sorry but if you think that all Protoss needs is a few more drone kills in the early game to fix PvZ then I disagree. | ||
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Drahkn
186 Posts
On July 16 2023 06:50 bulldozer06701 wrote: Is Protoss struggling on the ladder? Doesn't look like it at all Should we balance the game based on gold league players stuck on roach at 20 min complaining about colossus and immortal being OP? Protoss has received a lot of unwarranted hate/nerfs over the years , got many nerfs when it was uncalled for because of pro gamers and fanbois crying. How many years did we complain about Infestor/Viper/Broodlord era of Zerg and nothing was done about it, if that was Protoss woulda been shut down within a year. Back when Colossus got nerfed it was totally uncalled for, viper and or corrupter is such a hard counter to colossus its not even funny, you must always have storm to backup any kind of Protoss composition or it all collapses. This basically means you have to go down 2 expensive tech paths making you extremely vulnerable and predictable in a macro game. Protoss does well on ladder because it has easy executable all inns and cheeses , it's like a chess player who learns some tricky early attacks but if it gets shut down he has the capability of a 300 rated player even although his rating is 1000. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2199 Posts
On July 17 2023 01:01 Vindicare605 wrote: I significantly doubt this change is going to be very meaningful for Protoss winrates in tournaments. Collosus are only effective in timing attacks at the pro level. Vipers make them almost completely irrelevant in late game PvZ, and their immobility and high supply cost make them a liability on large maps against Terran multipronged harassment not to mention late game air units. Incidentally this change WILL have a much more felt impact on the lower leagues because Collosus are much more powerful there. Therein lies the problem with Protoss design that is causing it to have such a miserable run at the higher levels. well if you doubt this changes anything we might as well make their range 15 right?! what kind of argument is that... of course buffs affect the game at pro level... they normally do small buffs and nerfs and they effect the metagame quite substantially... and a range buff of 1 is a pretty good buff i'd say... should help against terran a lot I believe as kiting bio will become more manageable, thus making the colossus a realistic, non-fringe alternative to the disruptor also i'm sorry but the "uhhh protoss dominates the ladder!!" argument is so stupid. As if they'd balance the game around a few platinum scrubs with 60 APM. At the pro level, toss has struggled immensely for the longest time now, so buffs are overdue. My advice at those whining about lower level winrates would be twofold: 1. get 2. gud | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On July 17 2023 00:31 Charoisaur wrote: They are? I rarely see Gateway allins working at the top level nowadays Most of the places Protoss is strong are not relevant at the very highest level currently X) Go 40 spots down the player rankings to like EU / NA rank 15-20 level, and I think making gateway allins a bit stronger would cause problems (although as said, I don't think that's a real issue given the gas limitations). | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
Meh Roaches can burrow, burrow move and have a cool upgrade. Immortal just moves and shoots. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
On July 17 2023 01:37 SharkStarcraft wrote: well if you doubt this changes anything we might as well make their range 15 right?! what kind of argument is that... of course buffs affect the game at pro level... they normally do small buffs and nerfs and they effect the metagame quite substantially... and a range buff of 1 is a pretty good buff i'd say... should help against terran a lot I believe as kiting bio will become more manageable, thus making the colossus a realistic, non-fringe alternative to the disruptor also i'm sorry but the "uhhh protoss dominates the ladder!!" argument is so stupid. As if they'd balance the game around a few platinum scrubs with 60 APM. At the pro level, toss has struggled immensely for the longest time now, so buffs are overdue. My advice at those whining about lower level winrates would be twofold: 1. get 2. gud No one is whining about Protoss dominating the ladder, people are simply stating that if you're making a change that does more for the ladder than it does for tournament matches that it probably isn't a good change because it isn't being targeted at areas where Protoss is struggling. Giving the race a bunch of buffs that don't matter, are just going to make it so that when they actually DO get around to changes that target what should have been targeted in the first place, that the race is now overtuned because they got all of these other minor buffs that they didn't need earlier in the pipeline. This is how Zerg ended up in such a stupid spot from 2018-2020. As for making Collosus range 15, that's a retarded idea. I'm simply pointing out that targeting the Collosus with ANY buffs is probably not the best place for changing it since it's a bad unit at the pro level just in general. It's not going to make the race OP on its own but if they start doing things like buffing Gateway units, suddenly a 10 range Collosus backing up a stronger Gateway army is going to get really oppressive really quickly, when all that was needed in the first place was a buff to a different place in the roster. You get it now? | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On July 17 2023 01:21 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm sorry but if you think that all Protoss needs is a few more drone kills in the early game to fix PvZ then I disagree. Isn't Protoss more so struggling with Terran at the moment? I mean, Aligulac has PvZ as of June with 4% in favor of Protoss and unless I'm mistaken or just reading  HerO(jOin) Hero's stat sheet wrong, but isn't it saying that in 2023 alone Hero has won 3 Major, 1 Premier, and took 3rd in another Premier? Besides Serral and Dark there are currently 6 Zerg in the top 20, 6 Protoss, and obviously 8 Terrans so Idk, how hard are they really struggling right now exactly? If there were 8 Protoss and 6 Terran, but it were still only Hero and MaxPax in the top 10, would the scenario be the same?And by that I mean, how hard are they struggling in the sense that I do agree Protoss could stand to be buffed a tiny but further, specifically vs. Terrans, but large scale buffs and redesigns? Even if such things were possible, are they really necessary? Or do we just need to revert the shield overcharge nerfs and maybe give the Sentry a buff? | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
On July 17 2023 03:15 Vindicare605 wrote: No one is whining about Protoss dominating the ladder, people are simply stating that if you're making a change that does more for the ladder than it does for tournament matches that it probably isn't a good change because it isn't being targeted at areas where Protoss is struggling. Giving the race a bunch of buffs that don't matter, are just going to make it so that when they actually DO get around to changes that target what should have been targeted in the first place, that the race is now overtuned because they got all of these other minor buffs that they didn't need earlier in the pipeline. This is how Zerg ended up in such a stupid spot from 2018-2020. As for making Collosus range 15, that's a retarded idea. I'm simply pointing out that targeting the Collosus with ANY buffs is probably not the best place for changing it since it's a bad unit at the pro level just in general. It's not going to make the race OP on its own but if they start doing things like buffing Gateway units, suddenly a 10 range Collosus backing up a stronger Gateway army is going to get really oppressive really quickly, when all that was needed in the first place was a buff to a different place in the roster. You get it now? Most earlier units affect all-ins much more than colossuses and disruptors got nerfed this year. The only three units which are comparably lategame are carriers (which everyone seems to hate), Tempests and HTs. Of these only the HT is a more micro-heavy unit and while I wouldn't mind buffs to both feedback (say +1 range) and storm (f.e. +15% dps) it's also a rising unit that has seen more play recently again. Obviously there are other ways to buff toss, f.e. giving recall a shorter channeling time or giving phoenix a bit more base damage in return for less anti-light so they actually deal damage to units that aren't lifted. But generally in PvT P at the highest level struggle to poke a terran that slowly moves forward and I've seen f.e. Maxpax just loose cause he couldn't drive back bio that was covered by liberators. Having a range more on collosus would help in these situations and tbh I think it does more for a player with good control that can control spacing than a diamond level player. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On July 17 2023 03:31 Beelzebub1 wrote: I mean, Aligulac has PvZ as of June with 4% in favor of Protoss and unless I'm mistaken or just reading HerO(jOin) Hero's stat sheet wrong, but isn't it saying that in 2023 alone Hero has won 3 Major, 1 Premier, and took 3rd in another Premier?What Premier did he win? I thought his top (and only noteworthy) 2023 result was IEM Katowice top 4? | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Other than that I think the race is ok. Well, I'd also either increase tempest Anti ground atack range (which is shorter than its anti air atack), or make them turn faster so they can kite better vs the improved vikings, BL and BC. | ||
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Elentos
55468 Posts
On July 17 2023 04:21 Fanatic-Templar wrote: What Premier did he win? I thought his top (and only noteworthy) 2023 result was IEM Katowice top 4? And Liquipedia has successfully confused another person by listing a team tournament (WTL) under player achievements. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
That said I have nowhere near the knowledge necessary to predict all the consequences of such a drastic change. I'm just spitballing on what units I'd like to see more often in games. I have no clue how to make it happen in a realistic way. EDIT: Maybe increase the cost of Graviton Beam, but give it a discount on Light units, so mass Phoenixes can't just neutralise important tech units too easily? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
If we have an option though, it may be better to buff units that are not AOE units or spellcasters as they're really strong in SC2. With the exception of the Sentry. With the 12 worker start, sentries aren't as prominent anymore. I think if we want to allow Protoss to move out on the map and be able to do those early gateway pushes like back in WoL/HotS when Protoss was actually scary, then we could buff the Sentry slightly more as they fall off in usefulness when armies get larger anyway. (And buffing them would make them slightly more worth keeping around a few later in the game). Another point I want to mention, it doesn't seem like the 10 colossus range is really causing any issues. Also, having the same range as Lurkers I feel allows them to be a viable soft counter to Lurkers because you can have multiple colossus pick at 1-2 lurkers at a time, forcing them to reposition. And because the colossus will be in an arc and have high HP, colossus are surprisingly durable vs Lurkers. It isn't a way to just outright kill the lurkers, but to push them back positionally. Some other changes I think we can consider: 1) Since Overcharge got nerfed and Raven got buffed and thus Defense Matrix is even better now which helps disabling Colossus, we could really give Protoss some buff to compensate. Batteries could heal slightly more, or could have a slight rework to have faster regeneration so it encourages players to be more active and use the energy instead of banking up on it. Overcharge could also give a battery +150 shield HP or something, because it's too easy to snipe with biles. Alternatively, overcharge could be given a buff in range to make it easier to keep the battery safe. 2) Fix/improve Battery Overcharge AI. Currently, if you have 1 normal battery and 1 overcharge battery, sometimes the normal battery starts healing a unit first, and the overcharge doesn't take priority and thus it gets wasted, even if it's the only unit that needs healing. Protoss has enough units and abilities to manage when defending, let's make this easier for them. Also, if you have a building that needs to be healed, currently you have to manually heal it even if there are no units that need healing by the overcharge. This could also be improved which would help protoss use it to defend their nat walls in early pushes, or defend early expansions. 3) Make it so that Ravager Bile only takes out 1 FF at a time. Also, make it so that FF can be used to protect buildings. You have to clear the FF first before damaging the building. This might give Protoss a way to help protect their Overcharge and static defense from being sniped by Biles immediately, and give Sentries more prominence. This might also allow forge fast expands to be viable again which would just be good for build variety. 4) Stalker could be buffed from +13 (+5 armored) damage to +14 (+4 armored) damage. This would help Protoss against Mutalisks, which can be game ending and are difficult to deal with overall. This would help gateway armies not be as weak against Roach/Ravager. It would also help Protoss fight Queen armies or defend against Queen nydus-allins or Queen overlord drops. It would also be a direct buff to help gateway armies vs MMM. If we rework this, we can do the same to the hellion to make them just slightly more viable as a map control + fighting unit like vultures, and to maintain the power dynamic between Stalkers and Hellions. 5) Nerfing concussive shell just slightly. Concussive is a big reason gateway armies get destroyed by MMM, and concussive isn't as important in bigger fights later. But also in cases where the Terran has the lead and can kite forever, this would also help weaken the snowball effect of concussive shell. 6) Viper Abduct should be reworked because this isn't WoL anymore, deathballs are no longer the problem of the game. We have so many tools to discourage deathballs, like more powerful splash, and the Lurker/Liberator/Disruptor which are multi-purpose units that can help hold positions on the map, harass, defend pushes and discourage deathball/clumping, and force players to be more slow/methodical when they fight instead of just a-clicking head on. Abduct is just really lame and anti-climactic to watch, especially with having Consume. Why can't we just make it so that Abduct only pulls massive units half the distance? Or maybe Viper takes 2x the time to pull it in so they're more vulnerable? (1.4 sec instead of 0.7). SC2 spellcasters are a bit too powerful, we already gutted the Raven over and over saying it should be a support unit you only get 1-2 of, but some reason it's actually viable and OK as zerg to build 20-40 infestors lategame? Infestors and Vipers each have 3-4 very powerful abilities. 7) We could make Charge something that you can target on the ground so that you can use it to retreat as well, or for example to go in a certain direction to block a unit from escaping, or to set up flanks better etc. This would give more micro to zealots which are one of the few melee units in the game. Melee micro can be very interesting, think WC3 for example. Charge makes engagements inconsistent and having more ways to retreat might be nice, especially if we don't nerf Concussive. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
On July 16 2023 06:50 bulldozer06701 wrote: Is Protoss struggling on the ladder? Doesn't look like it at all ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/g7kRxs7.jpg) | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
On July 16 2023 01:44 [Phantom] wrote: Honestly, good. the colossus might be boring, but if you're nerfing the disruptor you need to compensate somehow. I think it's a decent change. Maybe I'd buff the immortal. Or give him an upgrade. I agree with this. Immortals needs a movement speed buff to make it easier to micro and be able to retreat somewhat easier as well. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1478 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
On July 17 2023 05:38 Athenau wrote: It's absurd that Viper abduct has stayed in its current state for so long. A 9-range 75 energy instant kill ability on a fast flying spellcaster that increases its own energy regen, wat? The presence of this unit in sufficient numbers almost singlehandedly shuts down both Colossus and Disruptors, and it's amazing in ZvT as well. Yeah abilities like Abduct, Interference Matrix, etc... things that easily take out positions on the map, really discourage positional play, and make it harder to have games be like BW where there is a lot of spread out action ongoing simultaneously. Tanks, Disruptors, etc. are units that help hold positions in the map, slow the game down and allow for more methodical play and culminating in taking more of the map, so that games don't end early with just 1 big deathball fight. Interference Matrix has made it so that building a few Ravens can let you dismantle positions easily, and it makes it harder to hold positions of the map with few units (it's been a big goal in LotV with the addition of Disruptor/Liberator/Lurker to help hold positions and trade efficiently in small numbers, to make the game more BW-like with lots of smaller fights spread out). Abduct does similar. Instead of giving players so many easy tools to just dismantle a position and punish the opponent for trying to siege a position up or zone an area of the map out, players should be trying to put great effort into creating methodical plans to carefully dismantle defenses or positions on the map if they truly want to break that position. And if they don't want to invest that time/resource, they should be playing the positioning game with their army until they find an opening. This would slows the game down to be more like BW where it takes more time to do things, and thus there's much more of a feeling of multi-tasking, fights spread out around the map, and enough time for each player to intercept or anticipate each player's moves during the process. Instead of just getting a big clump of army and A-clicking an expansion down when your opponent is not in position, it's more about investing into specific units and energy ahead of time to find a specific weakness in that base's defense, which also gives the opponent time to intercept or anticipate it and counter. Players should not be so incentivized to attack right into fortified positions which took effort to setup (whether it be a sieged position with zoning units and static defense, or just the opponent's main army holding a choke). They should be encouraged to try to find a positional way to outplay their opponent and keep them on the move. Ofc the other problem with Abduct is that it's not just good at countering positional play, it's also just good in a straight up deathball vs deathball fight because you can instant kill key units. Abduct is super outdated and was designed specifically to counter units like Colossus in the WoL era where colossus balls were OP. In LotV, it instead works against one of the core goals which is to encourage players to split their army up more and try to hold more bases and more of the map, because it makes it easy to take out small positions trying to be held by Tanks/Liberators/Disruptors/Lurkers. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom861 Posts
 But it's definitely a bug and will be fixed soon. | ||
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Peplum
2 Posts
On July 17 2023 05:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Agreed with Vindicare, so many units that are good vs (or bad vs) the Colossus got buffed. If we have an option though, it may be better to buff units that are not AOE units or spellcasters as they're really strong in SC2. With the exception of the Sentry. With the 12 worker start, sentries aren't as prominent anymore. I think if we want to allow Protoss to move out on the map and be able to do those early gateway pushes like back in WoL/HotS when Protoss was actually scary, then we could buff the Sentry slightly more as they fall off in usefulness when armies get larger anyway. (And buffing them would make them slightly more worth keeping around a few later in the game). Another point I want to mention, it doesn't seem like the 10 colossus range is really causing any issues. Also, having the same range as Lurkers I feel allows them to be a viable soft counter to Lurkers because you can have multiple colossus pick at 1-2 lurkers at a time, forcing them to reposition. And because the colossus will be in an arc and have high HP, colossus are surprisingly durable vs Lurkers. It isn't a way to just outright kill the lurkers, but to push them back positionally. Some other changes I think we can consider: 1) Since Overcharge got nerfed and Raven got buffed and thus Defense Matrix is even better now which helps disabling Colossus, we could really give Protoss some buff to compensate. Batteries could heal slightly more, or could have a slight rework to have faster regeneration so it encourages players to be more active and use the energy instead of banking up on it. Overcharge could also give a battery +150 shield HP or something, because it's too easy to snipe with biles. Alternatively, overcharge could be given a buff in range to make it easier to keep the battery safe. 2) Fix/improve Battery Overcharge AI. Currently, if you have 1 normal battery and 1 overcharge battery, sometimes the normal battery starts healing a unit first, and the overcharge doesn't take priority and thus it gets wasted, even if it's the only unit that needs healing. Protoss has enough units and abilities to manage when defending, let's make this easier for them. Also, if you have a building that needs to be healed, currently you have to manually heal it even if there are no units that need healing by the overcharge. This could also be improved which would help protoss use it to defend their nat walls in early pushes, or defend early expansions. 3) Make it so that Ravager Bile only takes out 1 FF at a time. Also, make it so that FF can be used to protect buildings. You have to clear the FF first before damaging the building. This might give Protoss a way to help protect their Overcharge and static defense from being sniped by Biles immediately, and give Sentries more prominence. This might also allow forge fast expands to be viable again which would just be good for build variety. 4) Stalker could be buffed from +13 (+5 armored) damage to +14 (+4 armored) damage. This would help Protoss against Mutalisks, which can be game ending and are difficult to deal with overall. This would help gateway armies not be as weak against Roach/Ravager. It would also help Protoss fight Queen armies or defend against Queen nydus-allins or Queen overlord drops. It would also be a direct buff to help gateway armies vs MMM. If we rework this, we can do the same to the hellion to make them just slightly more viable as a map control + fighting unit like vultures, and to maintain the power dynamic between Stalkers and Hellions. 5) Nerfing concussive shell just slightly. Concussive is a big reason gateway armies get destroyed by MMM, and concussive isn't as important in bigger fights later. But also in cases where the Terran has the lead and can kite forever, this would also help weaken the snowball effect of concussive shell. 6) Viper Abduct should be reworked because this isn't WoL anymore, deathballs are no longer the problem of the game. We have so many tools to discourage deathballs, like more powerful splash, and the Lurker/Liberator/Disruptor which are multi-purpose units that can help hold positions on the map, harass, defend pushes and discourage deathball/clumping, and force players to be more slow/methodical when they fight instead of just a-clicking head on. Abduct is just really lame and anti-climactic to watch, especially with having Consume. Why can't we just make it so that Abduct only pulls massive units half the distance? Or maybe Viper takes 2x the time to pull it in so they're more vulnerable? (1.4 sec instead of 0.7). SC2 spellcasters are a bit too powerful, we already gutted the Raven over and over saying it should be a support unit you only get 1-2 of, but some reason it's actually viable and OK as zerg to build 20-40 infestors lategame? Infestors and Vipers each have 3-4 very powerful abilities. 7) We could make Charge something that you can target on the ground so that you can use it to retreat as well, or for example to go in a certain direction to block a unit from escaping, or to set up flanks better etc. This would give more micro to zealots which are one of the few melee units in the game. Melee micro can be very interesting, think WC3 for example. Charge makes engagements inconsistent and having more ways to retreat might be nice, especially if we don't nerf Concussive. One thing that always bothered me about Defensive Matrix on Colossus is it made them walk into the enemy, I assume because it thinks it has no range while on an attack command all of a sudden. I always felt they should still think they have their normal range and be trying to attack from it sort of, even if it's not working. You're concussive idea just made me wonder if it would make sense if they weren't impacted by it when they had shields? | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On July 18 2023 00:47 Peplum wrote: One thing that always bothered me about Defensive Matrix on Colossus is it made them walk into the enemy, I assume because it thinks it has no range while on an attack command all of a sudden. I always felt they should still think they have their normal range and be trying to attack from it sort of, even if it's not working. That's not the case anymore, that was fixed in the last patch | ||
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Luolis
Finland7099 Posts
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Xamo
Spain877 Posts
On July 17 2023 05:58 CicadaSC wrote: a certain protoss was streaming today and I asked him if the +3 range was a ninja buff or a bug and he confirmed it was a bug and will be removed soon Any buff to Protoss is a bug. | ||
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