The Code S Season 3 finals match-up has been set, and it features one of the most extreme contrasts we've ever seen on the GSL stage. RagnaroK will play in the first ever grand finals of his 10+ year career, facing off against Maru who looks to claim a record-setting fifth Code S championship.
RagnaroK was the first to book his ticket to the grand finals, taking a 3-2 win over GuMiho in the semifinals. The PSISTORM Gaming Terran had reached the final four by winning two reverse-sweep series in the previous round, and he very nearly cheated death once more after pulling back to 2-2 from an 0-2 start. However, RagnaroK had the perfect answer for GuMiho's trademark mech in the deciding game, starting with early Roach pressure and finishing him with a Swarm Host timing.
On the other hand, Maru had a much easier time dispatching herO, winning 3-1 to avenge his loss in the previous Season's Code S finals. Maru's early-game defense proved to be too sturdy for even herO to pierce, and his only loss ended up being the game where he went for an ill-advised cheese of his own.
The finals between RagnaroK and Maru will take place on Saturday, Oct 15 8:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) at the FreecUP studio.
Match Recaps
Semifinal #1: RagnaroK [3 - 2] GuMiho
Game 1 - Waterfall (RagnaroK win): GuMiho opened with a fast Hellion drop, which was unfortunately hard countered by RagnaroK's decision to open with Roaches. RagnaroK's early Roach attack killed SCVs and forced a long lift-off on GuMiho's expansion Command Center, whereas the Hellion drop hardly did any damage in return. While it took RagnaroK a while to close things out, it was a pretty mundane clean-up job for him.
Game 2 - Inside and Out (RagnaroK win): Both players opened more conventionally this time, with RagnaroK going for the usual Queen-Speedling macro play while GuMiho went for Hellion-Banshee harassment.
GuMiho lost too many of his early game units trying to harass, which let RagnaroK expand and macro up very comfortably. This economic advantage snowballed into another win without any serious complications, as RagnaroK overran GuMiho's bio with Hydra-Ling-Bane.
Game 3 - Stargazers (GuMiho win): RagnaroK opened with an extreme Roach all-in off two bases, which initially seemed like it might get a free win against GuMiho's 3-CC build with Hellion-Banshee. However, thanks to his Banshee and good Hellion micro, GuMiho was able to hold off the attack and come out with a huge economic advantage (even with 24 SCV's lost, he was ahead against the 2-base Zerg).
RagnaroK tried to play Mutalisks off two bases to get back into the game, but he couldn't get nearly enough damage done to narrow the gap. GuMiho eventually massed an unstoppable bio army and collected the GG from RagnaroK.
Game 4 - Tropical Sacrifice (GuMiho win): RagnaroK opened with a Pool-before-Hatch build for some early Zergling harassment, but it didn't affect the game much as the two players headed into a fairly conventional macro game setup. GuMiho decided to go semi-'all-in,' increasing his Barracks count to try and kill RagnaroK with waves of Marine-Marauder-Mine in the mid-game.
At first, it seemed like RagnaroK wasn't in any danger at all, as he handled the Terran assaults without any trouble. However, GuMiho ruthlessly took advantage of a few bad trades from RagnaroK, and he laid the pressure on heavily with ground attacks and drops. RagnaroK wasn't ever able to stabilize from that point on, and he eventually had to surrender against the unending waves of infantry.
Later, RagnaroK singled this game out as the one he regretted blowing, even saying he slapped himself in the face to get his head in order.
Game 5 - Data-C (RagnaroK win): GuMiho played a CC-first build and then proceeded to try and play a BC-mech strategy. RagnaroK went for some light Roach pressure off three bases, which did a solid amount of damage despite the safety Banshee from GuMiho. Good Overlord scouting from RagnaroK meant he was completely aware of GuMiho's plan, and he was able to macro up without taking any meaningful damage from the BC's.
This great start from RagnaroK allowed him to hit very hard with a Corruptor-Swarm Host timing, attacking with a huge number of units before GuMiho was set on defense. It took just two Locust cycles to completely shatter GuMiho's army and force his final surrender.
Semifinal #2: Maru [3 - 1] herO
Game 1 - Inside and Out (Maru win): Maru started with a proxy-Barracks to get an early Reaper into herO's main, following-up with a Barracks-heavy build with a safety-Cyclone. Meanwhile, herO went for a Twilight Council and a proxy-Pylon, preparing for a very fast Blink-Stalker all-in without a Robo.
The Stalker attack at around 4:40 was almost enough to break through the Terran defenses, but Maru survived and ended up with a huge lead. Desperation DT's were quickly eliminated by Maru's saved up scans, leaving herO with no choice but to GG out.
Game 2 - Data-C (Maru win): Maru opened with a 3-Barracks build that included a very fast Engineering Bay, while herO proxied a Stargate for Oracles. herO traded against Marines with his Oracle-Adept harassment, but couldn't kill a significant number of SCV's or damage Maru in a meaningful way.
This put Maru in an incredible position at around the 7-minute mark with 1/1 infantry upgrades and Stim/Shield all finishing up around the same time. While herO managed to buy some time with Blink-Stalker backdoor attacks, Maru just played his advantage patiently and bided his time before striking. Eventually, he found the openings to play the usual Terran two-prong game with ground forces and drops, and battered herO into submission with continued attacks.
Game 3 - Waterfall (herO win): herO opened up with a Stargate for a single Phoenix, but quickly made a turn into Blink Stalkers. Meanwhile, Maru played what seemed like a typical 1/1/1 opener, but then went for a peculiar early game strike with 1 Tank-1 Medivac-1 Cyclone, a handful of Marines, and many SCVs to support. However, herO's combination of Stalkers and Phoenix were the perfect counter on defense, and Maru quickly GG'd out after the attack was crushed.
Game 4 - Stargazers (Maru win): Maru opened with a very fast triple-CC build after a Reactor, which herO responded to with a 4-Gate Blink-Stalker attack off two bases. While herO got a decent number of SCV kills with this attack, Maru still came out ahead due to his greedy opener.
Nonetheless, herO played solid defense in the mid-game to hold out against Maru's bio drops and attacks by land, and played himself back into a reasonable position. However, he decided to go back on the offensive a little too recklessly, going deep into Terran territory with Stalker-Colossus-Disruptor. Maru made the risky decision to go for a drop while defending at the same time, but it paid off in a huge way. Not only did he hold on defense, but his drop did big damage on the other end of the map. This move swung the game irrevocably in his favor, and herO was forced to surrender not long after.
I don't want to discredit Ragnarok because he played really good this season, but I still think this will be a stomp. My guess is Maru 4:1, maybe even 4:0.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Personally this G5L trophy can't hype me at all after Stats, Innovation, Zest, TY and Rogue are all retired or doing military.
True especially after Rogue became the contender starting this year, but unfortunately he had to leave for military service when he got only one chance to do so in the last season. Hopefully the GSL continue next years onwards so that people like Stats, and others can make achievements.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
I still think Maru is legit contender even though he didn't has IEM trophy yet.
He is the obvious GOAT given the fact he won an OSL + best proleague player during the golden era. His 4 GSL in a row during the relatively weak era is amazing achievement, and if he wins G5L in the weakest KR era (no TY, INno, etc) it is a nice bonus. Rogue only started winning in the relatively weak era and when zerg became super strong, so even INno is above him imho
I imagine that this is the most one sided match history between 2 GSL finalists ever. Maru has an 85% game winrate and a 95% series winrate all time vs Ragnarok and a lot of that is pretty recent. Would take a large miracle (or curse) for Ragnarok to win this.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
I still think Maru is legit contender even though he didn't has IEM trophy yet.
He is the obvious GOAT given the fact he won an OSL + best proleague player during the golden era. His 4 GSL in a row during the relatively weak era is amazing achievement, and if he wins G5L in the weakest KR era (no TY, INno, etc) it is a nice bonus. Rogue only started winning in the relatively weak era and when zerg became super strong, so even INno is above him imho
On October 09 2022 02:57 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This is cool to me how it parallels Rogue vs Creator. 1 player who gets their first GSL finals in ~10 years, vs Rogue/Maru.
Maru will probably win but Ragnarok may take a couple games. I'll predict 4-2.
Given Maru lost three finals in a row, the G5L curse thing (even the KR spectators / players have to know about this meme?) and RagnaroK being more solid than ever, I doubt Maru will 4-0, and he could lose. He is the big favorite though indeed
Congrats to RagnaroK for making it to the GSL Finals. Is this the first time that he and Maru have faced each other in a GSL Finals? Should be a huge upset if RagnaroK can beat Maru, but it's looking to be utter domination for the Terran. Predicting 4-1 or 4-0 Maru, and the G5L trophy can be had for him.
On October 09 2022 18:30 IplayZbutplznerfZ wrote: I believe that if serral is a Korean player, he can still win IEM and wcs, but he certainly can't have so many champions.
True. Also, narrative being the successful foreign player won't help him either. At least, Rogue, Maru, Innovation, Zest, himself and others are judged fairly and ready to be compared each other, not be presumed first that they belong to minority group or else.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Personally this G5L trophy can't hype me at all after Stats, Innovation, Zest, TY and Rogue are all retired or doing military.
It doesn't hype me much because winning three GSLs in a row peaked my Maru-in-the-GSL expectations. Maru's just too good for me to be very interested in any storyline that involves him winning.
But at least I can still get hyped for the games themselves. Maru still delivers really exciting StarCraft.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Winning IEM is a requirement for the GOAT title because it's the world championship. I agree with your sentiment, but that's the reason why.
Just 'cause and some others argue that iem is a requirement doesn't make it so. A lot of other people still believe gsl is the hardest tournament, exemplified by reynor bombing out in the group stages. There's no clear metric of what makes someone the goat. This is to me what makes it fun. In any event, based on pure tournament results, serral is still not the goat because rogue matched him in iem/blizzcons and has the gsls as well
We never see Raynor or Serral be eliminated in the very first round of a regular tournament, yet we have seen Maru, Rogue, and Raynor be eliminated in the very first round as LAST OF THE GROUP, in the GSL, which basically should prove just how hard to win a GSL is.
I expect Maru to win this. It will be his eighth GSL finals...that's crazy.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
And somehow the competition in IEM isn't weaker?
What is so fantastic about GOAT discussions is that you can come to different conclusions depending on the criteria and keep arguing forever.
How many true consensus GOATs in any field are there even? Usain Bolt, Babe Ruth and...?? Even Lebron James has stiff competition from Michael Jordan.
Afaik Michael Jordan is undisputed GOAT in basketball.
He is and even if he wasn't, there's at least 3 guys ahead of Lebron James in the discussion. The only reason Lebron gets talked about is recency bias.
I very much like how the banner and text on the first page is not a spoiler to the semifinals! This is how it should be done, I think. It is very clear what it is about. Very little text is needed to convey that it is the GSL code S, and that the ro4 results are in.
I would like this to be the norm. I want to click to find out the results. The implemented spoiler system for posts doesn't help if I want to read and comment about the EU regional ESL and not know the GSL results. Both links look the same so I don't know which is which. There's a 50/50 chance of being spoiled or getting the desired results. I rather not partake in discussions than knowing the results of an event that I plan to watch later. It is not helping the site if people actively stay away from it even if they like it.
(For some reason my cognitive dissonance says that the ESL weekly open cups have a good form even if they tell the winners in the title)
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
Maru also won OSL and SSL which are by your definition type 2 tournaments (higher prize seasonal tournament)
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
Maru also won OSL and SSL which are by your definition type 2 tournaments (higher prize seasonal tournament)
Right, Serral also won 2 GSL vs World, which is a type 3 tournament in term of format but has the prize of a type 2.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
And somehow the competition in IEM isn't weaker?
What is so fantastic about GOAT discussions is that you can come to different conclusions depending on the criteria and keep arguing forever.
How many true consensus GOATs in any field are there even? Usain Bolt, Babe Ruth and...?? Even Lebron James has stiff competition from Michael Jordan.
Afaik Michael Jordan is undisputed GOAT in basketball.
He is and even if he wasn't, there's at least 3 guys ahead of Lebron James in the discussion. The only reason Lebron gets talked about is recency bias.
I actually dont give a damn about basketball, but that several of you got lured into arguing about who the real GOAT of the sport is...
It started in way back, when I was listening to a Liverpool and a ManU fand arguing about which club was the "best" by slamming acomplishments at eachother. Even though there were no discussion ManU was the best at the time, none of them backed off, and the Liverpool guy jumped severeal seasons back and dug up historic triumphs to support his case.
Then, I have followed NFL for a while, and they have a very long off-season where a whole staff of writers and commentators are spending their time making and discussing useless mock drafts and ranking lists.
Maybe some find great entertainment of discussing things like historic skill ranking and "GOAT" status, but I think it is boring and pointless.
I think an acomplishment should be appreciated in its own right.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL
Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL?
Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too)
Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement.
No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL.
Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside)
On October 09 2022 15:53 RaiKageRyu wrote: How many G5L attempts has it been? I feel like a choke of epic proportions may play out and it will elude him yet again.
he won the gsl what 3 times in a row already though?
at this point if he loses again its safe to say there is TRULY a G5L curse and not him choking.
On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: [quote] Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL
Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL?
Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too)
Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement.
No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL.
Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside)
All hail Goat Rogue
werent serrals 4 wcs wins all region locked to foreigners only at the time?
A Korean starleague nowadays is obviously worth less than an IEM Katowice. But from at least 2010-2017 it was far harder to win a starleague than a world championship or anything else. Far too many weak players at the world championships during those years. In 2018 it was around equal difficulty just because of how good Serral was so his omission made a big difference. In 2019 it started to become easier than IEM because of KR retirements and the rise of Reynor as well as Serral continuing to play at a high level.
And the which would a player rather win argument is not fully relevant to tournament difficulty. The answer to that for most players is simply going to be the tournament with the highest first place prize. They would give the same answer if the question was WESG or GSL and WESG is always rated lower.
well, I think people are missing the point, which is that Zerg is clearly imba, and for Maru to still be able to win championships is the real reason he's the best SC2 player.
if you teach Godzilla to put balls in a hoop and place him and MJ on a basketball court, Godzilla will win, doesn't make him the better basketball player.
On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote: [quote] If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL
Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL?
Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too)
Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement.
No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL.
Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside)
All hail Goat Rogue
werent serrals 4 wcs wins all region locked to foreigners only at the time?
Yes. Which is why his wall of text makes absolutely zero sense.
On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: [quote] Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo.
Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL?
Cause that’s where all the best players compete
An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year
Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year
Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs
And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military
But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo.
I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.).
Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament.
Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament.
Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well.
Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue.
As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL
Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL?
Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too)
Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement.
No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL.
Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside)
All hail Goat Rogue
To say that World Champioship were the only one that count is pretty superficial, because that means Byun is above Maru because he won Blizzcon in 2016, which anyone know that its ridiculous. On that same note, thats why Dark is not mentioned because hes lacking of some win in GSL code S (type 2 by my classification).
And to say Maru won the GSL because he didnt face sOs is another poor claim, because Maru DID beat sOs in Ro8 for his 1st title run. And also you claim Serral winning 4 straight WCS title is impressive, while ignoring what I said about his winning record in DH EU (won 1 out of 7) is just another mistake/bias.
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
Depending on map pool and bracket, if Serral has to play Dark, herO and Reynor consecutively before making the Final and Maru "only" has to face Clem, HM then I would take Maru odd of winning. I feel that Serral ZvT is too good at the moment for even Maru to win, but his ZvZ and ZvP can be had.
And its a damn myth that Maru bombed out early in tournament, maybe from years ago but not in recent years.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
That's easy, I'd pick Rogue. He's the ultimate big match player.
Btw this question has nothing to do with who is the greatest player of all time because it only asks for the best player at the moment
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
Delusional as always
You're right, I'm sure Maru would struggle extremely hard against the like of ForJumy, BattleB or KingCobra
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Actually Reynor being eliminated in the first round is good proof of that. Serral also lost in the DH Last Chance group stage by losing twice to DRG. If he would always play in tournaments in which the groupstages are already this stacked he would certainly also get eliminated early more often
Delusional as always
You're right, I'm sure Maru would struggle extremely hard against the like of ForJumy, BattleB or KingCobra
Well we have seen him lose (although with ping) to Harstem very recently in WTL, who should be around the same level as ForJumy atm so it could happen! But playing from the same region / low ping in bo3+ I doubt he would drop many series to the cannon fodder players that are most players of DH:EU groups indeed
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
Maru gets it because Starleagues are around the same or harder difficulty as world championships and Maru has won 6 of them. Soon to be 7. Serral has only won 2 world championships and no starleagues. 6 (7) > 2. Maru is also the best sc2 proleague player which is a very underrated achievement.
Even in regards to just 2019 to current performance at least 4-5 of those Serral premier wins are events with barely any or even 0 Koreans. I can't give much credit for any event with <8 Koreans which makes their results a lot closer. Maru has won harder events that didn't get the premier title (Kob, Asus) than some of Serral's premiers.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
Why look only at 2019-now? I thought Goat stands for greatest player of all time and not greatest player since 2019?
And the same argument I already talked about still stands. It depends all on criteria. By those cherry-picked criteria by you Serral is the best but by other criteria like high-prestige tournament wins Maru and Rogue are above him.
On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote: I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue) -#1 in premier wins -#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches) -#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1. Maru/Results
Yes, if you go off recent history Maru has been fairly consistent. Zoom out and look at 2019 to present? Serral has 13 premiers to Maru's 7. Look at win rate vs koreans (since the argument is that Serral plays lesser competition). And again, Serral and Maru have played a decent amount - Serral is the favorite in their head to head matches. So... Maru wins fewer tournaments, he is an underdog to the main GOAT competitor, he has a lower win rate vs the same players... I love Maru and think he is the better player (Zerg, cmon), but he doesn't get GOAT status on his accomplishments. He only gets it if you put an asterisk next to Serral for playing Zerg.
Why look only at 2019-now? I thought Goat stands for greatest player of all time and not greatest player since 2019?
And the same argument I already talked about still stands. It depends all on criteria. By those cherry-picked criteria by you Serral is the best but by other criteria like high-prestige tournament wins Maru and Rogue are above him.
It's subjective, so all opinions are welcome. For me, GOAT is truly greatest of all time. What Serral has done to top level players and the consistency he's done it with is, imo, unmatched. This debate is also unique, in that we don't have to imagine how Serral would fare against other GOAT contenders. (e.g. MJ in today's NBA.) All of the GOAT contenders are active and in their prime, and Serral has the edge on all of them in head-to-heads. The best argument for Maru's GOAT status is the possibility that Zerg is simply the strongest race. I'm a huge Maru fanboy and think he probably has the edge if they both take the other's race.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
Counterpoint: the sc2 goat is the person who approximates Flash's sc1 performance the most because at least in sc1 he's pretty much the undisputed goat. If you accept this premise, not having a world championship doesn't preclude maru from being the goat.
Just like Flash, maru was the top proleague player for several years. Consistently the last terran standing, to the point where the Korean community labeled him the 4th race. Also is the most consistent player in the history of the game, winning his first premier tournament all the way back in 2015. In fact, he's the only player who has truly succeeded across different expansions. Being a top player when your race is strong is a lot different than doing the same when your race is weak
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
I doubt this is that much of a criterion given the fact that GSL is as difficult to win or harder than BlizzCon, and similar to IEM Katowice, minus prize pool (he won WESG though for the big prizepool tournament). When you add on top of that the sheer number of consecutive zerg wins in world championship, it becomes even more of a non factor not to win it as a non zerg player.
Maru is probably in contention with Rogue for GOAT title depending on criteria, and INno is the third candidate.
On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote: Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever?
You kinda need at least one world champion title for this, at the moment Maru is not even a contender for being the goat However he's without a doubt the best Terran ever
Counterpoint: the sc2 goat is the person who approximates Flash's sc1 performance the most because at least in sc1 he's pretty much the undisputed goat. If you accept this premise, not having a world championship doesn't preclude maru from being the goat.
Just like Flash, maru was the top proleague player for several years. Consistently the last terran standing, to the point where the Korean community labeled him the 4th race. Also is the most consistent player in the history of the game, winning his first premier tournament all the way back in 2015. In fact, he's the only player who has truly succeeded across different expansions. Being a top player when your race is strong is a lot different than doing the same when your race is weak
Correction: He won his first premier tournament in 2013
Uh, I wasn't involved in GOAT discussions since 2018 when we had the big Maru vs Serral debates. I think the major problem still is, we don't have enough comparable data. Serral competed vs. weaker players most of the time but was more successful when facing the best. Maru on the other hand managed more wins vs. tougher competition but "failed" on quite some occasions where Serral was successful.
At the same time weekenders and league formats are so different, it's kind of pointless to compare the GOATS of those different skillsets. Thus, as long as Serral isn't participating in GSL-like formats, the GOAT-question will have to remain undecided. And since Serral has no incentive to compete in GSL this won't change.
I'm personally leaning towards Maru with his 6 Starleague championships (4 of them in a row which still is unbelievable) beginning in the era of toughest competition plus insane proleague records plus quite some weekenders. But Serral really convinced me since 2018 with his absurd consistency even overcoming his weaker period when he was losing vs Reynor and Clem. I remain undecided.
Shoulda known I'd open a can of worms by asking that question!
You can read my sig to know where my allegiance lies, but based on what I've seen over the years, Maru is ahead of Serral if he gets his 5th GSL. Serral has indeed been pretty impressive is an absolute force. He can beat the Koreans when he plays them in weekenders, but that's his strength. Maru's is in prep games. Almost two different situations.
Like has been stated before, since we can't come to agreeable criteria on which to "judge" them, it's all a moot point really.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2022/codes3/ro6bracket_3.png)
RagnaroK will play in the first ever grand finals of his 10+ year career, facing off against 
