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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
I m hoping for more drastisch changes in the next Patch though Nerf carriers into the ground and give Protoss a different way of late game unit In general make ground units in late game more viable and leave air units in support roles only Mass bc, mass broodlord, golden armada are all boring to watch and boring to Play and boring to Play against | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary387 Posts
On June 17 2022 18:37 dbRic1203 wrote: I feel like it s been a step in the right direction I m hoping for more drastisch changes in the next Patch though Nerf carriers into the ground and give Protoss a different way of late game unit In general make ground units in late game more viable and leave air units in support roles only Mass bc, mass broodlord, golden armada are all boring to watch and boring to Play and boring to Play against i'm with you, my dude | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
* Or Queens, which are not fun to watch under any circumstances. | ||
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Darksaber23
2 Posts
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10331 Posts
I think some tweak to slow down Zerg from spiral so fast out of control if you lose a little pace vs them early on would help. Who remembers WoL and HotS, Zerg had to work really hard to survive and you could harass them all over and often it'd come down to if they can hold the 3rd or 4th. Now it doesn't feel like that, it feels instead of Zerg struggling to survive, it feels like the other player is struggling hard to find some pressure to slow the Zerg down from exploding. Maybe a tweak to nerf creep spread or something like that. Maybe tumors can give less vision, so it's possible to have some small holes of no vision between tumors (so they can't see your whole army completely without lots of tumors). And/or just increase creep tumor cd a couple seconds. (Right now you can spread a tumor a few seconds before the creep finishes spreading around that tumor). This reduces the mechanical skill difference between lower and top Zergs, and also slow down creep and effectively encourages the Zerg to put more tumors down if they want to spread creep at full speed. It'll barely change anything but helps out lower players a little, creep will still be good and strong with Zergs usually having plenty of energy for tons of tumors. But it'll still be a nice little tweak in the right direction. Also please please can something be figured out to make it easier for Protoss players to plug the wall? It's crazy how precise you have to be when placing a Zealot/Adept in the wall. Have you tried it before? It's so easy to be 1 pixel off and then lings flood in and you lose. It's just dumb and not fun to watch, and this hurts so many pros too. This fix alone would really help PvZ be more fair. Maybe a bandaid fix can be done where Protoss buildings have an additional collision radius that applies only to Zerglings. That way the building will still take the same space and interact the same with every other thing in the game, but if it's a ling specifically trying to run between a building and a Zealot/Adept, it won't be able to fit anymore. Like someone else said, I would love if they changed the Raven to not be such a useless unit in TvZ. Why did they design Terran's only gas sink unit to be a "you just want to get 1-2 for support and that's it"? It's so boring, if you try to play a heavy econ style and get lots of bases and gas, you can't even sink that gas into anything powerful. (Being able to sink gas into powerful units is the huge thing in SC2 that allows the econ to somewhat replicate BW mining, where mining more bases = stronger econ). I think they changed the Raven because they couldn't figure out a good way to nerf PDD without making it useless early game, but there are ways. The main problem with PDD is that it was able to unleash all of its energy and block 10 shots instantly - there is no cd between shots. This meant you could drop PDDs down 2-3 at a time lategame and completely block out 30 Corruptors from attacking you. Just make it so that PDD can only block a couple shots every second or so, that way if you want full protection from 30 corruptors you'd need to drop ~10+ PDDs down at once. Wow, suddenly there is actual counterplay - you can disengage after making them burn a ton of PDDs. Then all you need to do is tweak the rest of PDD's stats so that it's better early game, like for siege pushes. (For example before it only blocked 10 shots, maybe a couple more if the push lasts a while and it recovers some energy. Rescale it so that maybe even though it can only block 2-3 shots per second, it can end up blocking ~25 shots over a ~25 second period). Early on, blocking 2-3 shots every second can be very useful. Think Vikings, Marauders, or Stalkers. In LotV you already have Parabomb on Vipers too now which is pretty good vs Ravens - nerfing PDD alone in this way would have been enough to stop Ravens from being overpowered, and if you're still worried you could tweak the stats in other ways like change Raven's supply to 3. The raven had such unique and fun spells that allowed a more positional and methodical way to play the game, and allowed Terran an actual powerful spellcaster and gas sink. It also helped with defender's advantage and PDD could be used to hold bases spread out around the map or at chokes, and spread out games allow for much more dynamic gameplay and games that also don't end after 1 big fight. Terran really feels lacking now without it. You don't need to bring HSM back, just change AA missile back to a weaker PDD. And yes, I would be down with nerfing BCs or other mech units to help make up for the return of a weakened PDD. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On June 18 2022 07:35 QOGQOG wrote: Air units are just fine to watch in combat--as long as both sides don't go for air. Like in BW, Carrier vs Goliath can be very interesting because terrain matters a ton. The problem in SC2 is that most of the best anti-air units are themselves air units* meaning that it just turns into two deathballs slapping together in a dull and incoherent manner. * Or Queens, which are not fun to watch under any circumstances. Yeah, i didn t play since a long time but what you are saying make sense. It s idiot to force opponent of doing tons of air units.... | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
Do I think Protoss is going to win a GSL or whatever? Hero probably can, so can Creator, only time will tell. The rest of the changes were quite frankly inconsequential imo. Mine burrow change? Eh...who cares, I mean I guess it's good. DT blink nerf? Eh...probably needed to happen but at the same time like did it really? Were DT's such an issue? VR nerf? Sure that's fine, but nerf the Carrier, BC, and Brood Lord while you're at it, slow moving uber end game units just suck to watch 95% of the time, and the BC rush is probably one of the dumbest metas I've ever seen in TvZ. I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent? edit: Also think the Lurker nerf didn't really address the root of the issue, which to me is that the unit holds ground insanely well but it's also agile. It's only limitation is upgrades which is a band aid fix that just pushes the Lurker to the lategame where it's still a powerhouse unit. Kind of want them to make Lurkers slower, more fragile, and come online a bit earlier. Since that's wishful thinking, I'd like a removal of Adaptive Talons entirely, or a heavier nerf. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
Zerg hasn t enought tools to compensate the advantage of an eventual nerf of creep ability. It s understandable. Infested terrans come back, Roachs could be used in passing cliffs (with some adjustements), even if ravagers seems to add something in technical terms, Zerg is suffering from his dependency of how much speed they need to cover the map. That s said, if they commit for a technology with a high gas cost, they take risks and can lose the game. The creep issue can t be resolved without drastic changes, I mean, now best zerg has defined by their creep spreading skills, i don t see other changes coming until this issue is fixed, and consequently, a pretty big zerg gameplay revision. Zergs must be the first race to be tweaked, with the help of a slow-mode fights. Would you add a new T2 air caster ? Would you replace Hydras in T1 ? Queens ? Creep ? Banelings ? Every part of zerg gameplay could be discussed. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent? Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay? | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On June 18 2022 23:05 Athenau wrote: Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay? I agree, I'm open to debate on the creep issue of ZvT for sure, even I'm not fully convinced it's an issue but then I see some games and I'm like damn, creep spreads so fast and gives so much defensive utility, so honestly I couldn't pick a side on that argument there is some merit in both I think. I also kind of dislike bringing in the superstar players when it comes to balance. Maru and Clem are kinda special cases in the sense (to me at least) that they are ZvT specialists, so them winning in an unfavorable map pool also leaves me kinda stuck between a rock and hard place. Are they really just that good? Is Terran strong vs Zerg in general? Difficult questions to answer I think, alot of variables. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15928 Posts
On June 18 2022 23:05 Athenau wrote: Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay? Well, I think balance should be adjusted via maps first and only via balance-patches if there are glaring issues that can't be fixed just via maps. Right now on the current maps TvZ is slightly Zerg favored but Maru and Clem could still win tournaments against the best Zergs (even though less than the Zergs won). Adjusting the maps to equal the balance is the right step now imo, a balance patch in addition to that would be overkill. If we didn't have the option of adjusting maps I'd agree with you, that a balance patch would still be necessary | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On June 19 2022 00:08 Charoisaur wrote: Well, I think balance should be adjusted via maps first and only via balance-patches if there are glaring issues that can't be fixed just via maps. Right now on the current maps TvZ is slightly Zerg favored but Maru and Clem could still win tournaments against the best Zergs (even though less than the Zergs won). Adjusting the maps to equal the balance is the right step now imo, a balance patch in addition to that would be overkill. If we didn't have the option of adjusting maps I'd agree with you, that a balance patch would still be necessary The "it's just the maps" thing has been brought up every single time people start complaining about Zerg domination. For years. So I think it's reasonable at this point to assume that maps either cannot be made to fix the problem, or at some point during the map making and selecting process, maps that would deal with the issue don't go through. Besides, if Zerg exercises such a huge pressure on map design, it's going to have a negative impact on variety and innovation in maps. We already basically can't have four player maps. Or maps that are just big. What makes me especially dubious about the patch is what typically happens after patches: Protoss, which most often relies on catching the opponent off guard, usually benefits, simply because things are less figured out. While Zerg, which has historically relied on defensive macro, suffers as their defenses have to be figured out in a new context. These things have maybe happened a very little bit for this patch? It's hard to determine whether Creator or herO's success is due to the patch or just heroic efforts on their parts (other Protoss players certainly don't seem to have gotten a boost). And Serral who is the top Zerg most dependent on that defensive macro game hasn't been looking so great of late, but other Zergs are doing just fine. Results as a whole don't seem to have changed, even in the temporary way you'd expect for the post-patch period. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3372 Posts
On June 17 2022 01:26 Charoisaur wrote: How is ground Toss against Terran seizing to be viable?? Against Zerg Blink DTs aren't really relevant and never aggressively used where the delay would matter. I think the nerf you're suggesting would be a way bigger nerf actually as as of now even with the delay you still usually kill the CC if it's undefended, it just gives terran a bit more reaction time if they have units nearby. Increasing the cost would deter their use much more. Queen allin wasn't a very good solution vs Voidray into Skytoss, 2 sg void with Mass Batteries and cannons quite easily held that. On ladder ZvP is unarguably WAY more tolerable now as you can go Muta Corruptor against it. Whether the Voidray really needed to be double nerfed is debatable but I'd rather have this lame style to be overnerfed and compensate Protoss in other areas. The only one I agree with is the Battery nerf, that one probably wasn't necessary You wanna go Carrier vs T, or you will die an eventual death to Libs. There are times you don't have to, if you can get enough value out of the Blink DT's and win on multitask. But when this is not the case and T is turtled up, you will lose to Libs. As for muta, corruptor. I don't think Zergs do that. It should die to phoenix and some voids, unless what they rly win on is upgraded lings. | ||
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CaRn1FeX
Germany203 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On June 22 2022 03:20 CaRn1FeX wrote: Limit Zerg to one Queen per Hatch and all fine with Balance Or move the macro-related spells to hatcheries where they belong. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On June 22 2022 03:20 CaRn1FeX wrote: Limit Zerg to one Queen per Hatch and all fine with Balance Far easier to just tweak Queen numbers to make them sub optimal to build in mass. I think the issue there is you can't make the Queen useless, not sure if at the top level Zerg could play a ZvT reasonably without having 2 Queens at hatcheries and at a minimum of 2 pushing creep, a cap is maybe a better idea but if you're only allowing 1 Queen per hatchery then you would actually have to buff the shit out of them or Zerg early/mid game would be pretty frail. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
 I see a lot of suggestions for creep nerf. Most of them targets the speed of creep spread which is fine but I'd like to suggest a nerf to the units speed bonus given by creep. It is probably more impactful change but i think also better way of addressing the creep power. It may lead to more fights on creep by the opponent as the advantage would be smaller as well as more aggressive plays from Zerg with units that now require creep to attack (hydra). In other words more active plays on the map and less 'no-go' zones due to heavy creep coverage. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic614 Posts
when is the next patch coming out? | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On July 03 2022 00:16 BonitiilloO wrote: Maybe a tweak to nerf creep spread or something like that. Maybe tumors can give less vision, so it's possible to have some small holes of no vision between tumors (so they can't see your whole army completely without lots of tumors). when is the next patch coming out? I mean probably at a minimum not until DH Valencia is over and done with. I was also a proponent of a tumor nerf (spread speed, recede speed) but I saw a suggestion that was just to nerf the actual speed bonus of creep and thought it sounded like a decent idea. Any patch will have to be small I think, minimal adjustments, balance really hasn't looked that bad these past few months with the improvements to ZvP. | ||
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