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TL.net128 Posts
Discussion thread for frontpage poll: "3 Months later, how do you feel the March 15 (5.0.9) balance patch has worked out?"
There was a lot of heated discussion at the time of the patch, but now we've had some time to let the meta settle and see an entire tournament cycle play out. Have your opinions on the patch changed? What were you right about? What were you wrong about? How do you feel the patch has affected the state of StarCraft II overall?
For reference, here are the patch notes:
Protoss
Shield Battery
-Starting Energy reduced from 100 to 50 outside of the nexus field
Dark Templar
-Now have a 0.75s attack delay after blink
Void Ray
-Build time increased from 37 to 43
-Mineral cost increased from 200 to 250
Zerg
Queen
-Can no longer transfuse off creep
Terran
Widow Mine
-Reduce the effectiveness of drilling claws by from 0.71 seconds to 1.07 seconds
Lurker
-Reducing the effectiveness of adaptive talon from 0.71 seconds to 1.07 seconds
Nydus Worm
-Increased starting creep by 1 unit in each direction around the worm once it spawns
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I kinda like the new balance path. PvZ looked much brighter. I just hoped that they disallowed an abduct to the Mothership and Infestor is allowed again to use Infested Terrans.
Also, make the Raven useful when fighting against Zerg in middle or late games.
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Bisutopia19174 Posts
It still doesn't feel like enough has changed. If hero didn't return to SC2 would PvZ be going as well? And Terran seem to be having a tough time all around.
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On June 16 2022 23:13 BisuDagger wrote:
It still doesn't feel like enough has changed. If hero didn't return to SC2 would PvZ be going as well? And Terran seem to be having a tough time all around.
I think agree on PvZ being heavily carried by herO's style right now, which could be because of the queen nerfs, soo maybe the change actually did alot. TvP still pretty swingy and TvZ heavily map dependend, but i wouldn't say terran is struggling. Clem just won wcs eu with heromarine coming in strong too and gsl performance so far this season is alright.
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It remains to be seen if Protoss can really compete with Zerg on even footing right now, but design-wise the patch was a full success as those Oracle into Blink styles are way more fun than Skytoss turtle
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design wise it's a success for sure. We need more time to know how things stand as far as balance goes right now.
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Shield Battery
-Starting Energy reduced from 100 to 50 outside of the nexus field
Dark Templar
-Now have a 0.75s attack delay after blink
These are still unfair changes. I don't know why the community always come to the conclusion that cheese is detrimental to the game, when all it does is keep the game fresh.
The DT nerf is also a big nerf to ground toss at a time where ground toss seizes to be viable. And you can achieve a similar effect by simply nerfing the cost of DT Blink from 100->200. The upgrade takes long, so why not have the cost also reflect that. It's a rly good upgrade, but you keep it in check by this alone. That and Terrans learning to defend vs it. Have they considered using Building Armour and Widow Mines? I don't know.
And it still feels wonky with Queen Transfuse and Shield Batteries having to be close to the Nexus.
Void Ray allins are fixed with Build time increased from 37 to 43 or nerfing the speed of the Void Ray alone. They didn't have to triple nerf Protoss. (Shield Battery, Void Ray build time and Void Ray cost.)
Ladder Zergs still get fucked by Carriers and they don't have as good a solution like before with the Queen allin. And top Zergs have an even easier time vs the top Protoss in late game, due to air Zerg not needing to respect the Void Ray.
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Have they considered using Building Armour and Widow Mines? I don't know.
Wtf is 2 extra armor going to do against a unit that does a minimum of 45 damage a hit?
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Unfortunately this is not the right time to ask this question since herO might be about to change the most questionable match-up, unlucky timing =)
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Changes to DT blink and Lurkers has had little impact in PvT and ZvT respectively but everything else seems to be working well. I'd like to see Widow Mine drops viable in TvT as well but I don't think that'll happen.
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On June 17 2022 00:36 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Shield Battery
-Starting Energy reduced from 100 to 50 outside of the nexus field
Dark Templar
-Now have a 0.75s attack delay after blink These are still unfair changes. I don't know why the community always come to the conclusion that cheese is detrimental to the game, when all it does is keep the game fresh. The DT nerf is also a big nerf to ground toss at a time where ground toss seizes to be viable. And you can achieve a similar effect by simply nerfing the cost of DT Blink from 100->200. The upgrade takes long, so why not have the cost also reflect that. It's a rly good upgrade, but you keep it in check by this alone. That and Terrans learning to defend vs it. Have they considered using Building Armour and Widow Mines? I don't know. And it still feels wonky with Queen Transfuse and Shield Batteries having to be close to the Nexus. Void Ray allins are fixed with or nerfing the speed of the Void Ray alone. They didn't have to triple nerf Protoss. (Shield Battery, Void Ray build time and Void Ray cost.) Ladder Zergs still get fucked by Carriers and they don't have as good a solution like before with the Queen allin. And top Zergs have an even easier time vs the top Protoss in late game, due to air Zerg not needing to respect the Void Ray.
How is ground Toss against Terran seizing to be viable??
Against Zerg Blink DTs aren't really relevant and never aggressively used where the delay would matter.
I think the nerf you're suggesting would be a way bigger nerf actually as as of now even with the delay you still usually kill the CC if it's undefended, it just gives terran a bit more reaction time if they have units nearby. Increasing the cost would deter their use much more.
Queen allin wasn't a very good solution vs Voidray into Skytoss, 2 sg void with Mass Batteries and cannons quite easily held that.
On ladder ZvP is unarguably WAY more tolerable now as you can go Muta Corruptor against it.
Whether the Voidray really needed to be double nerfed is debatable but I'd rather have this lame style to be overnerfed and compensate Protoss in other areas.
The only one I agree with is the Battery nerf, that one probably wasn't necessary
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I don t play SC2 but as it seems to lock some gameplay abuse as void ray proxy and queens walk, we can promote this type of patch. The direction of this patch seems to be understandable since WoL, it s look like a sparadrap (plaster/patch/bandage) to help players to avoid frustation of playing endlessly the same kind of defeat.
That s why i m thinking the concept of a slow-damage-mode and divide workers count by 2 isn t completely out of sense. Players can reach end game easily, less struggle in micro (because the game is a little bit slow).
Actually it would be called StarCraft 5W (5 workers) - with 8 workers max per mineral base, so you re starting with only 5 workers which can harvest 10 minerals per trip (but two times slower). They also have double HP and cost 100 minerals.
Terran economy don t get adjustement (as the reference by now)
Zerg Buildings mineral cost are decreased by 50, and now only hatchery create drones and their timing production is calculated in function of Zerg developpement (and the required numbers of buildings while game goes on)
Protoss Buildings become more expensive (because probes doesn t work out with buildings)
This concept allows two things :
new players for discovering the game with more ease,
SC2 standing as a reference in Esport.
Then your army can growth around 30. Players need now 12 workers per base, 8 for minerals and 4 for gas (rotating on 4 bases for ultra large map, and rotating on 3 bases with smaller ones).
PS : As i know i m a bit offtopic, you aren t forced to talk about this vision
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I feel like Lurkers are still to strong for what they are ( siege units). They have 200hp extremely good ms and good aoe. There burrow speed should be nerfed again. Disruptor, Siege tank, Liberator, takes ages to set up, but literally Lurker takes 1 second to obliterate your entire army with insane movespeed.
Ghosts are op as well in TvZ, but are useless in TvT. Raven is useless in both TvP and TvZ, but Op in TvT.
These casters need to be fixed/changed, i dont know how.
BC is extremely strong and promotes cheeze play with teleport, but it takes extremely time to build them. Playing against BC's is extremely triggering for every race. Unit needs to changed. Nerf teleport, Buff build time.
Banshee needs to be rebalanced, speed upgrade is to expensive, yet is useless.
Carriers is triggering to play against for every race, needs to changed.
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On June 17 2022 00:36 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Shield Battery
-Starting Energy reduced from 100 to 50 outside of the nexus field
Dark Templar
-Now have a 0.75s attack delay after blink These are still unfair changes. I don't know why the community always come to the conclusion that cheese is detrimental to the game, when all it does is keep the game fresh.
It's not all cheese.
Just ridiculously overtuned cheese that is way, way, way harder to hold than execute. Nothing fresh about dying to immortal robo / stargate units every time you face protoss (which already had more bullshit than the other races for ladder).
Voidray battery proxy TvP was one of the most broken things the game has ever had in terms of execution vs defence. The protoss has tanky, flying voidrays that nearly instaheal to full shields if you move them in the right spot. The terran has a bunch of frail units (many of which are armored) - and all the good ones will die if you look away from them for a bloody second (seriously the speed at which a charged void kills a cyclone is astounding). And that was if the terran scouts in time and was playing a build decently capable of holding. Immortal prism battery PvZ was maybe not quite as one-sided, but it was still pretty bad in this regard.
The proxy battery change was one of the best changes for ladder level play that the game has seen.
DT blink change doesn't seem to have actually mattered.
EDIT:
Agree overall with Kitai's assessment below.
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I think the patch was overall a step in the right direction. I feel like the DT blink nerf wound up not accomplishing anything and the adaptive talons nerf was less punishing than the drilling claws nerf.
My understanding of the blink DT nerf was that it was supposed to give terran planetaries more of a fighting chance against them, but so far I have not seen a single planetary saved by this nerf. There were occasional wonky blink DT cheeses whose purpose was to blink on and immediately annihilate smaller early-midgame armies, but those builds sort of died out before the blink nerf even came through.
The adaptive talons nerf was less consequential than the drilling claws nerf. It lowered their potential to jump on armies before the opponent can pull back out of range, but it didn't change their survivability much. The mine nerf not only lowered their offensive potential, but made them much more susceptible to getting destroyed before burrow completion due to their lower HP and closer range.
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My opinion remains 100% the same: On an individual basis, the changes they made make sense. Taken as a whole, not so much. Protoss and Terran did not need to get nerfed (well, proxy voids needed a nerf but not four different nerfs), and reworking Zerg to put more of an emphasis on the Nydus worm while trying really hard not to actually nerf Zerg was a garbage idea.
I feel like thanks to herO's return, there's some hope that PvZ will improve, but the patch wasn't really responsible for that. The patch just meant that Protoss died in a wider variety of ways to Zerg.
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On June 17 2022 05:40 QOGQOG wrote:
I feel like thanks to herO's return, there's some hope that PvZ will improve, but the patch wasn't really responsible for that. The patch just meant that Protoss died in a wider variety of ways to Zerg.
herO's style would have been much worse on the last patch. A large reason why he can keep the roach army away with just stalkers and oracles is that queens can't follow the roaches and transfuse off creep.
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we were told that this patch was conservative because there would be a follow-up patch.... well where is it??
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On June 17 2022 07:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 05:40 QOGQOG wrote:
I feel like thanks to herO's return, there's some hope that PvZ will improve, but the patch wasn't really responsible for that. The patch just meant that Protoss died in a wider variety of ways to Zerg. herO's style would have been much worse on the last patch. A large reason why he can keep the roach army away with just stalkers and oracles is that queens can't follow the roaches and transfuse off creep.
I mean, I might be being a little harsh on the patch, but I'm not really convinced that it's really having that large of an impact. Not in a positive way, at least. The main use for Queens against herO's style would seem to be AA, not transfuse. Not that transfusing a few Ravagers would hurt, obviously.
Given that no other Protoss players seem to be trying herO's style so we haven't seen it beyond the day of GSL he brought it out, I do want to emphasize that it's promising, not that it's been proven viable yet. Dealing with Zerg massing Queens for AA or just a-moving a bunch of Banes are, I think, the main challenges it'll have to show resilience against.
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I see any problems of removing speed bonus for Lurkers off creep. Actually it doesn t solve problems of doing a ton of Lurkers in a second but it could be a first step.
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I feel like it s been a step in the right direction
I m hoping for more drastisch changes in the next Patch though
Nerf carriers into the ground and give Protoss a different way of late game unit
In general make ground units in late game more viable and leave air units in support roles only
Mass bc, mass broodlord, golden armada are all boring to watch and boring to Play and boring to Play against
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On June 17 2022 18:37 dbRic1203 wrote:
I feel like it s been a step in the right direction
I m hoping for more drastisch changes in the next Patch though
Nerf carriers into the ground and give Protoss a different way of late game unit
In general make ground units in late game more viable and leave air units in support roles only
Mass bc, mass broodlord, golden armada are all boring to watch and boring to Play and boring to Play against
i'm with you, my dude
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Air units are just fine to watch in combat--as long as both sides don't go for air. Like in BW, Carrier vs Goliath can be very interesting because terrain matters a ton. The problem in SC2 is that most of the best anti-air units are themselves air units* meaning that it just turns into two deathballs slapping together in a dull and incoherent manner.
* Or Queens, which are not fun to watch under any circumstances.
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The patch did nothing to nerf Zerg. All it did was heavily nerf Terran and Protoss to literal Hell. Creep still goes out too fast and overlords still shit out creep so there was practically zero effect when it came to Zerg. The extreme nerfs that Blizzard did to Terran and Protoss inadvertently buffed Zerg.
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Gameplay is much improved, but I agree with others that it seems like Zerg didn't get nerfed as much here as they should have, like P got perhaps more nerfs than Zerg.
I think some tweak to slow down Zerg from spiral so fast out of control if you lose a little pace vs them early on would help. Who remembers WoL and HotS, Zerg had to work really hard to survive and you could harass them all over and often it'd come down to if they can hold the 3rd or 4th. Now it doesn't feel like that, it feels instead of Zerg struggling to survive, it feels like the other player is struggling hard to find some pressure to slow the Zerg down from exploding.
Maybe a tweak to nerf creep spread or something like that. Maybe tumors can give less vision, so it's possible to have some small holes of no vision between tumors (so they can't see your whole army completely without lots of tumors).
And/or just increase creep tumor cd a couple seconds. (Right now you can spread a tumor a few seconds before the creep finishes spreading around that tumor). This reduces the mechanical skill difference between lower and top Zergs, and also slow down creep and effectively encourages the Zerg to put more tumors down if they want to spread creep at full speed. It'll barely change anything but helps out lower players a little, creep will still be good and strong with Zergs usually having plenty of energy for tons of tumors. But it'll still be a nice little tweak in the right direction.
Also please please can something be figured out to make it easier for Protoss players to plug the wall? It's crazy how precise you have to be when placing a Zealot/Adept in the wall. Have you tried it before? It's so easy to be 1 pixel off and then lings flood in and you lose. It's just dumb and not fun to watch, and this hurts so many pros too. This fix alone would really help PvZ be more fair. Maybe a bandaid fix can be done where Protoss buildings have an additional collision radius that applies only to Zerglings. That way the building will still take the same space and interact the same with every other thing in the game, but if it's a ling specifically trying to run between a building and a Zealot/Adept, it won't be able to fit anymore.
Like someone else said, I would love if they changed the Raven to not be such a useless unit in TvZ. Why did they design Terran's only gas sink unit to be a "you just want to get 1-2 for support and that's it"? It's so boring, if you try to play a heavy econ style and get lots of bases and gas, you can't even sink that gas into anything powerful. (Being able to sink gas into powerful units is the huge thing in SC2 that allows the econ to somewhat replicate BW mining, where mining more bases = stronger econ).
I think they changed the Raven because they couldn't figure out a good way to nerf PDD without making it useless early game, but there are ways. The main problem with PDD is that it was able to unleash all of its energy and block 10 shots instantly - there is no cd between shots. This meant you could drop PDDs down 2-3 at a time lategame and completely block out 30 Corruptors from attacking you. Just make it so that PDD can only block a couple shots every second or so, that way if you want full protection from 30 corruptors you'd need to drop ~10+ PDDs down at once. Wow, suddenly there is actual counterplay - you can disengage after making them burn a ton of PDDs.
Then all you need to do is tweak the rest of PDD's stats so that it's better early game, like for siege pushes. (For example before it only blocked 10 shots, maybe a couple more if the push lasts a while and it recovers some energy. Rescale it so that maybe even though it can only block 2-3 shots per second, it can end up blocking ~25 shots over a ~25 second period). Early on, blocking 2-3 shots every second can be very useful. Think Vikings, Marauders, or Stalkers.
In LotV you already have Parabomb on Vipers too now which is pretty good vs Ravens - nerfing PDD alone in this way would have been enough to stop Ravens from being overpowered, and if you're still worried you could tweak the stats in other ways like change Raven's supply to 3.
The raven had such unique and fun spells that allowed a more positional and methodical way to play the game, and allowed Terran an actual powerful spellcaster and gas sink. It also helped with defender's advantage and PDD could be used to hold bases spread out around the map or at chokes, and spread out games allow for much more dynamic gameplay and games that also don't end after 1 big fight. Terran really feels lacking now without it. You don't need to bring HSM back, just change AA missile back to a weaker PDD. And yes, I would be down with nerfing BCs or other mech units to help make up for the return of a weakened PDD.
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On June 18 2022 07:35 QOGQOG wrote:
Air units are just fine to watch in combat--as long as both sides don't go for air. Like in BW, Carrier vs Goliath can be very interesting because terrain matters a ton. The problem in SC2 is that most of the best anti-air units are themselves air units* meaning that it just turns into two deathballs slapping together in a dull and incoherent manner.
* Or Queens, which are not fun to watch under any circumstances.
Yeah, i didn t play since a long time but what you are saying make sense. It s idiot to force opponent of doing tons of air units....
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Vastly superior at least in terms of ZvP. Swarm Toss is looking stronger and stronger and is a good meta change from retard mode aerial deathballs. Protoss is obviously stronger in the MU, Creator and Hero both have been doing well, and MaxPax and Neeb also looking strong. Tournament win rates need to be watched for probably the next 3 + months, if ZvP stabilizes around 50% I think we're good.
Do I think Protoss is going to win a GSL or whatever? Hero probably can, so can Creator, only time will tell.
The rest of the changes were quite frankly inconsequential imo.
Mine burrow change? Eh...who cares, I mean I guess it's good.
DT blink nerf? Eh...probably needed to happen but at the same time like did it really? Were DT's such an issue?
VR nerf? Sure that's fine, but nerf the Carrier, BC, and Brood Lord while you're at it, slow moving uber end game units just suck to watch 95% of the time, and the BC rush is probably one of the dumbest metas I've ever seen in TvZ.
I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent?
edit: Also think the Lurker nerf didn't really address the root of the issue, which to me is that the unit holds ground insanely well but it's also agile. It's only limitation is upgrades which is a band aid fix that just pushes the Lurker to the lategame where it's still a powerhouse unit.
Kind of want them to make Lurkers slower, more fragile, and come online a bit earlier. Since that's wishful thinking, I'd like a removal of Adaptive Talons entirely, or a heavier nerf.
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I don t want to blame air again, and again. It seems now that community ask for no more snowballing units in air (except for mutas, which have been designed for, and the problem is inherent to the ability of Zergs of making a ton of units in a second, so discuss)
Zerg hasn t enought tools to compensate the advantage of an eventual nerf of creep ability. It s understandable.
Infested terrans come back, Roachs could be used in passing cliffs (with some adjustements), even if ravagers seems to add something in technical terms, Zerg is suffering from his dependency of how much speed they need to cover the map. That s said, if they commit for a technology with a high gas cost, they take risks and can lose the game.
The creep issue can t be resolved without drastic changes, I mean, now best zerg has defined by their creep spreading skills, i don t see other changes coming until this issue is fixed, and consequently, a pretty big zerg gameplay revision.
Zergs must be the first race to be tweaked, with the help of a slow-mode fights. Would you add a new T2 air caster ? Would you replace Hydras in T1 ? Queens ? Creep ? Banelings ? Every part of zerg gameplay could be discussed.
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I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent?
Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay?
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On June 18 2022 23:05 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +
I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent?
Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay?
I agree, I'm open to debate on the creep issue of ZvT for sure, even I'm not fully convinced it's an issue but then I see some games and I'm like damn, creep spreads so fast and gives so much defensive utility, so honestly I couldn't pick a side on that argument there is some merit in both I think.
I also kind of dislike bringing in the superstar players when it comes to balance. Maru and Clem are kinda special cases in the sense (to me at least) that they are ZvT specialists, so them winning in an unfavorable map pool also leaves me kinda stuck between a rock and hard place.
Are they really just that good? Is Terran strong vs Zerg in general? Difficult questions to answer I think, alot of variables.
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On June 18 2022 23:05 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +
I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent?
Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay?
Well, I think balance should be adjusted via maps first and only via balance-patches if there are glaring issues that can't be fixed just via maps.
Right now on the current maps TvZ is slightly Zerg favored but Maru and Clem could still win tournaments against the best Zergs (even though less than the Zergs won).
Adjusting the maps to equal the balance is the right step now imo, a balance patch in addition to that would be overkill.
If we didn't have the option of adjusting maps I'd agree with you, that a balance patch would still be necessary
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On June 19 2022 00:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2022 23:05 Athenau wrote:
I still think creep maybe needs to be toned down but I don't know, Clem did just beat Reynor in an absolutely insane series so does T really need buffs in ZvT or is the MU just very map pool dependent?
Zerg having a 100% winrate in tournaments to be considered imbalanced is an unreasonable standard. Maru, and now Clem, have managed to win in a highly unfavorable map pool, does mean the maps are actually fine and should stay? Well, I think balance should be adjusted via maps first and only via balance-patches if there are glaring issues that can't be fixed just via maps. Right now on the current maps TvZ is slightly Zerg favored but Maru and Clem could still win tournaments against the best Zergs (even though less than the Zergs won). Adjusting the maps to equal the balance is the right step now imo, a balance patch in addition to that would be overkill. If we didn't have the option of adjusting maps I'd agree with you, that a balance patch would still be necessary
The "it's just the maps" thing has been brought up every single time people start complaining about Zerg domination. For years. So I think it's reasonable at this point to assume that maps either cannot be made to fix the problem, or at some point during the map making and selecting process, maps that would deal with the issue don't go through.
Besides, if Zerg exercises such a huge pressure on map design, it's going to have a negative impact on variety and innovation in maps. We already basically can't have four player maps. Or maps that are just big.
What makes me especially dubious about the patch is what typically happens after patches: Protoss, which most often relies on catching the opponent off guard, usually benefits, simply because things are less figured out. While Zerg, which has historically relied on defensive macro, suffers as their defenses have to be figured out in a new context. These things have maybe happened a very little bit for this patch? It's hard to determine whether Creator or herO's success is due to the patch or just heroic efforts on their parts (other Protoss players certainly don't seem to have gotten a boost). And Serral who is the top Zerg most dependent on that defensive macro game hasn't been looking so great of late, but other Zergs are doing just fine. Results as a whole don't seem to have changed, even in the temporary way you'd expect for the post-patch period.
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On June 17 2022 01:26 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 00:36 ejozl wrote:Shield Battery
-Starting Energy reduced from 100 to 50 outside of the nexus field
Dark Templar
-Now have a 0.75s attack delay after blink These are still unfair changes. I don't know why the community always come to the conclusion that cheese is detrimental to the game, when all it does is keep the game fresh. The DT nerf is also a big nerf to ground toss at a time where ground toss seizes to be viable. And you can achieve a similar effect by simply nerfing the cost of DT Blink from 100->200. The upgrade takes long, so why not have the cost also reflect that. It's a rly good upgrade, but you keep it in check by this alone. That and Terrans learning to defend vs it. Have they considered using Building Armour and Widow Mines? I don't know. And it still feels wonky with Queen Transfuse and Shield Batteries having to be close to the Nexus. Void Ray allins are fixed with Build time increased from 37 to 43 or nerfing the speed of the Void Ray alone. They didn't have to triple nerf Protoss. (Shield Battery, Void Ray build time and Void Ray cost.) Ladder Zergs still get fucked by Carriers and they don't have as good a solution like before with the Queen allin. And top Zergs have an even easier time vs the top Protoss in late game, due to air Zerg not needing to respect the Void Ray. How is ground Toss against Terran seizing to be viable?? Against Zerg Blink DTs aren't really relevant and never aggressively used where the delay would matter. I think the nerf you're suggesting would be a way bigger nerf actually as as of now even with the delay you still usually kill the CC if it's undefended, it just gives terran a bit more reaction time if they have units nearby. Increasing the cost would deter their use much more. Queen allin wasn't a very good solution vs Voidray into Skytoss, 2 sg void with Mass Batteries and cannons quite easily held that. On ladder ZvP is unarguably WAY more tolerable now as you can go Muta Corruptor against it. Whether the Voidray really needed to be double nerfed is debatable but I'd rather have this lame style to be overnerfed and compensate Protoss in other areas. The only one I agree with is the Battery nerf, that one probably wasn't necessary
You wanna go Carrier vs T, or you will die an eventual death to Libs. There are times you don't have to, if you can get enough value out of the Blink DT's and win on multitask. But when this is not the case and T is turtled up, you will lose to Libs.
As for muta, corruptor. I don't think Zergs do that. It should die to phoenix and some voids, unless what they rly win on is upgraded lings.
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Limit Zerg to one Queen per Hatch and all fine with Balance
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On June 22 2022 03:20 CaRn1FeX wrote:
Limit Zerg to one Queen per Hatch and all fine with Balance
Or move the macro-related spells to hatcheries where they belong.
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On June 22 2022 03:20 CaRn1FeX wrote:
Limit Zerg to one Queen per Hatch and all fine with Balance
Far easier to just tweak Queen numbers to make them sub optimal to build in mass. I think the issue there is you can't make the Queen useless, not sure if at the top level Zerg could play a ZvT reasonably without having 2 Queens at hatcheries and at a minimum of 2 pushing creep, a cap is maybe a better idea but if you're only allowing 1 Queen per hatchery then you would actually have to buff the shit out of them or Zerg early/mid game would be pretty frail.
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The patch was generally speaking a small step in right direction, but where is the promised follow up? 
I see a lot of suggestions for creep nerf. Most of them targets the speed of creep spread which is fine but I'd like to suggest a nerf to the units speed bonus given by creep. It is probably more impactful change but i think also better way of addressing the creep power. It may lead to more fights on creep by the opponent as the advantage would be smaller as well as more aggressive plays from Zerg with units that now require creep to attack (hydra). In other words more active plays on the map and less 'no-go' zones due to heavy creep coverage.
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Dominican Republic611 Posts
Maybe a tweak to nerf creep spread or something like that. Maybe tumors can give less vision, so it's possible to have some small holes of no vision between tumors (so they can't see your whole army completely without lots of tumors).
when is the next patch coming out?
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On July 03 2022 00:16 BonitiilloO wrote:
Maybe a tweak to nerf creep spread or something like that. Maybe tumors can give less vision, so it's possible to have some small holes of no vision between tumors (so they can't see your whole army completely without lots of tumors).
when is the next patch coming out?
I mean probably at a minimum not until DH Valencia is over and done with.
I was also a proponent of a tumor nerf (spread speed, recede speed) but I saw a suggestion that was just to nerf the actual speed bonus of creep and thought it sounded like a decent idea.
Any patch will have to be small I think, minimal adjustments, balance really hasn't looked that bad these past few months with the improvements to ZvP.
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Northern Ireland24093 Posts
The most interesting current meta change is herO’s PvZ style, it remains to be seen if Zerg adapt.
Aside from the recent patch kind of outright weakening turtle Skytoss, and necessity being the mother of invention there’s not a huge amount that I don’t think herO couldn’t have done the last patch, it just wasn’t explored.
I guess the no transfuse off creep change maybe alters the border Queens/stalkers dance
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Canada8988 Posts
It's a bit early to say if it's because of the patches or because or the new maps, but I have been loving the pvz out of Valencia this weekend.
No Serral or Rogue probably help though
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On July 03 2022 04:30 WombaT wrote:
The most interesting current meta change is herO’s PvZ style, it remains to be seen if Zerg adapt.
Aside from the recent patch kind of outright weakening turtle Skytoss, and necessity being the mother of invention there’s not a huge amount that I don’t think herO couldn’t have done the last patch, it just wasn’t explored.
I guess the no transfuse off creep change maybe alters the border Queens/stalkers dance
On the last patch herO would have lost at least half his games to queen walks while he's trying to take a 4th base with like 5 units.
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EPT
