EPTASUS ROG FALL 21 can we learn anything? - Page 2
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Calliope
297 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 21 2021 01:22 Calliope wrote: I wonder if it isn't the queen that is the main problem, and contributes to the zerg domination we've gotten used to, with the exception of the odd terran victor. Queen versatility and good scouting keeps Zerg safe against anything that can be thrown at them early game, leaving larvae dedicated to drone production. Hence zvp or zvt don't really kick off until the drone count approaches 70. A weaker queen wouldn't permit zerg to go so comfortably into late game and overwhelm opponents with lurkers, and would probably provide for a much more enjoyable viewer experience instead of having us watch queens fight adepts/void rays/hellions etc while droning goes unhindered. Back before the ovie speed buffs though Zerg scouting was an absolute nightmare and Zerg's suffered heavily in the meta. We all know the Queen is a dominant unit, but it really just looks dominant when Protoss chooses to mass air units, which they do because once Lurkers hit the field Protoss ground becomes almost obsolete. | ||
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
1) Viper Abduct needs to go or Infestor neural needs to go. 2) Remove Viper gaining energy from building health so they have to wait for energy accumulation like every other energy unit in the damn game 3) Remove STATIC DEFENSE movement for zerg can work too. It's called Static defense for a reason. 4) Give Queen Armor tag 5) Alternatively increase Queen Transfusion energy but increase the healing too. This means lower overall healing amount per 200 energy. Thus queens heal less in longer fights but more in immediate fights. For Toss: make all of these changes: 1) Revert buffs for Void, we don't need it 2) Nerf Carrier 3) Buff Tempest Range or Anti-ground vs Units 4) Buff Stalker Anti-Air 5) Adjust battery. 6) give charge dmg back but reduce it to 4 instead of 8 I'm not sure how Stalker anti-air will factor vs Terran or Protoss, but gateway units are still kinda weak | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26489 Posts
On September 20 2021 20:18 Nebuchad wrote: I've written this post before but basically: 1) Issues with PvZ are magnified because it's mainly a strategical matchup. If something is wrong with TvZ, the fact that it requires great execution can make for some good TvZ regardless. Usually if you're doing the right thing in ZvP, you're unlikely to lose unless your opponent is much better. This is why Serral can have a 95% winrate in ZvP and still be perceived to not be doing anything particularly impressive if you watch one of his ZvPs. Because issues are magnified, it looks like it would need some huge redesign to fix, but not really. 2) As the reactive race in a mainly strategical match up, it should remain true that zerg ought to win at equal skill level if they know what they're playing against, otherwise it's unlikely that zerg can beat protoss in PvZ. What should change is that it shouldn't be that easy for top zergs to know what they're playing against. Right now as a zerg you can only get caught off guard if you fucked up quite largely, and this is why top zergs don't really lose, because they know what they're playing against all the time and they know the effective counters. You want to reach a stage where it looks similar to alternative zerg play in PvZ (swarmhosts, mutas). We don't see it a lot because the standard play is superior so zergs aren't incentivized to play those, but they're quite strong. How they work is if an equally skilled player knows they're coming, that player is going to win most of the time. But that equally skilled player won't always know that the all-in is coming, because PvZ information isn't guaranteed just like ZvP information is. Also if you've never liked PvZ you probably don't have the most valuable insight in how to fix it. I know we're a minority, but some people like strategy more than execution. Please don't fix PvZ by making it like TvZ. In theory yes, in reality no. I like the idea of a more strategic, tactical matchup to counteract a more mechanical/execution matchup like TvZ. PvZ ends up with a Protoss often quite hard locked into a gamble, one they can’t transition smoothly out of, and thus relying on your opponent to make mistakes. You get to throw one or two feints and if your opponent isn’t thrown off you just get punched in the face. It’s not a constant bob and weave of strategy and tactics and counterplay, if it was I think that would be cool. Instead it’s ‘oh I hope they bought that first void ray so my glaive attack will surprise them’ or any number of variants and if your gambit is read you’re fucked. PvZ has basically never had a vibrant, even midgame. The kind you see almost every TvZ. Buff this, nerf that, it never long term works because they’ve never managed to facilitate that. I don’t think it’s possible any more given there’s a lack of devs maintaining things to go for any radical overhaul just isn’t going to happen. Current meta we got shifts to incentivise Protoss air, and basically turtling to that is commonplace. Comps that aren’t really fun to play with or against, and below a certain MMR are extremely hard to deal with, up until it’s a Serral or a Dark and they’ll still dismantle you. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States726 Posts
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
On September 21 2021 01:22 Calliope wrote: I wonder if it isn't the queen that is the main problem, and contributes to the zerg domination we've gotten used to, with the exception of the odd terran victor. Queen versatility and good scouting keeps Zerg safe against anything that can be thrown at them early game, leaving larvae dedicated to drone production. Hence zvp or zvt don't really kick off until the drone count approaches 70. A weaker queen wouldn't permit zerg to go so comfortably into late game and overwhelm opponents with lurkers, and would probably provide for a much more enjoyable viewer experience instead of having us watch queens fight adepts/void rays/hellions etc while droning goes unhindered. The Zerg domination you speak of doesn't exist, and your post basically boils down to 'Zergs should be forced to take damage every game, or commit so heavily to defense that the drone count is so low they autolose all while I can still mass my skytoss army uninterrupted. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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Sunburn74
3 Posts
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loeblix
18 Posts
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yuisaka
Australia76 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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