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The first game of the DH Masters finals Fall just show how idiot the game can be.... Serral only do queens and humiliate Trap...
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I love when protoss players complain their bullshit wonky builds don't work
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On September 13 2021 02:33 TentativePanda wrote:
I love when protoss players complain their bullshit wonky builds don't work
You mean like a Queens walk ?
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6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad 
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On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad
Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals.
I just see ugly playing from both sides
I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas
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Dark after the second match against Trap :D
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On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas
Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options.
But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ...
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On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ...
why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army..
Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group
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On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group
What are you even talking about? 
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On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about?
I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches.
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On September 14 2021 01:13 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about? I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches.
I wouldn t be surprised to see your composition just reck when the Z will push on the muta button...
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On September 14 2021 02:35 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 01:13 InfCereal wrote:On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about? I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches. I wouldn t be surprised to see your composition just reck when the Z will push on the muta button...
If he's queen walking across the map with roaches, he isn't building mutas any time soon now, is he? I mean, get some Phoenix if you're afraid of a muta follow up, but generally it's failed queen walk into gg long before mutas are an option.
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On September 14 2021 05:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 02:35 Vision_ wrote:On September 14 2021 01:13 InfCereal wrote:On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about? I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches. I wouldn t be surprised to see your composition just reck when the Z will push on the muta button... If he's queen walking across the map with roaches, he isn't building mutas any time soon now, is he? I mean, get some Phoenix if you're afraid of a muta follow up, but generally it's failed queen walk into gg long before mutas are an option.
Invest in mass queens without spending gas, is best option for Zerg since Queens are scaling so well until end game while zerglings (not so bad ...) and roachs (to a lesser extent) could be a waste of larva in the future.
From what I can observe, queens become a counterweight to opponnent development despite their big weakness is their speed of movement without creep, we have seen that a player like Serral is capable to spread the creep in less than 7 minutes over most of the map, at this point, we are barely in the middle of the game (Zerg philosophy is about units with big weakness and very specialized and i assume Queens hasn t so much DPS but Protoss seems to lack 'burst' as a bio-ball could)
Protoss don't have enough tools to roll back creep (and I'm only talking about high-level esports ...) since their technological development is the slowest, they have more difficulty responding globally to the variation of Zerg composition. Its versatility weakens the strategic options of the Protoss and makes other Zerg units unattractive in gas investment ... From this hypothesis, the queen overlaps a little on all other units because she fills all the roles moderately (which is contrary to the Zerg philosophy) and therefore counteracts all the other units. This is a problem because the protoss is not able to drive anything, except by all-ins. As for the Zerg player is guaranteed to go all the way to the end of the game, carry by a versatile unit for 0 gas.
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On September 14 2021 01:13 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about? I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches.
Yeah but all his arguments are so one-sided, it's getting kinda ridiculous.
It's like saying it's imbalanced that roaches can't kill Carriers
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On September 14 2021 18:27 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 01:13 InfCereal wrote:On September 13 2021 22:06 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 20:57 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 17:43 Harris1st wrote:On September 13 2021 07:53 Vision_ wrote:On September 13 2021 07:07 jpg06051992 wrote:6 - 0 is no fluke, Serral is the superior player. That build in the last game was kinda bad Massing Queens has nothing to do in finals. I just see ugly playing from both sides I m not expert of PvZ but it seems to be hard of harvesting gas and get in the early game enought cost-effective units to counter queens/roachs. In this kind of composition, which is beefy, Zerg player is only spending 25 gas per roaches and can obtain for free gas a complementary unit while roaches could be pretty useless, queens are the swiss-knife for free gas and can compensate for the shortcomings of such unit in all areas Zealots and Immortals are pretty low gas invest and they destroy queen roach. It's not like there are no options. But when you go Stargate first and your Oracle doesn't do shit, well ... why would you buy zealots which are not so fast and hit on contact while a bunch of queens and roach (impossible de surround) can hit and run you and never be cost effective and represents the core of your army.. Am i supposed to take the immortal in count ? no they are too slow and oftenly catch by a one shot roach-group What are you even talking about? I believe he's trying to say that immortals and zealots are bad against roaches. Yeah but all his arguments are so one-sided, it's getting kinda ridiculous. It's like saying it's imbalanced that roaches can't kill Carriers
I don't understand what is so difficult to understand, the quality of an army must be slightly more dependent on gas than on mineral, if the Protoss army demands too much gas while zerg only have to put the gas in upgrades or buildings, it seems obvious that zerg player take even less risk to play even though it is already the race where there is the least risk to play thanks to tumors and their lighting on map
Even assuming that the Zerg is still the most harvesting race, there are times when you see matches where the Zerg is still alive while it has wasted a ton of resources swapping un-costeffective units just in order to slow down the development of his opponent.
What is really ridiculous is the few clever arguments against the cost of the queen ...
Not so long ago, i read the idea of consider creep tumor as a building, which means, Zerg has to create the tumors like the other building, morphing a drone. That s said, it could demand some adjustement but at least Zerg would care a little bit more about the defense along the edge/frontier of their mucus. It s a really good idea, the writer of this idea thought to limit the number of iteration process, but if you allow in this proposition, to re-create a tumor (when the last tumor is killed) from any other tumors (and not only the last one), you could describe a very better system of creep than actually.
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On September 14 2021 19:11 Vision_ wrote:
Not so long ago, i read the idea of consider creep tumor as a building, which means, Zerg has to create the tumors like the other building, morphing a drone. That s said, it could demand some adjustement but at least Zerg would care a little bit more about the defense along the edge/frontier of their mucus. It s a really good idea, the writer of this idea thought to limit the number of iteration process, but if you allow in this proposition, to re-create a tumor (when the last tumor is killed) from any other tumors (and not only the last one), you could describe a very better system of creep than actually.
That is a very deep cut into the system as it is right now. I'd rather have a Queen limit introduced, like 2 Queens per Hatchery if it comes down to it.
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On September 14 2021 20:36 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 19:11 Vision_ wrote:
Not so long ago, i read the idea of consider creep tumor as a building, which means, Zerg has to create the tumors like the other building, morphing a drone. That s said, it could demand some adjustement but at least Zerg would care a little bit more about the defense along the edge/frontier of their mucus. It s a really good idea, the writer of this idea thought to limit the number of iteration process, but if you allow in this proposition, to re-create a tumor (when the last tumor is killed) from any other tumors (and not only the last one), you could describe a very better system of creep than actually.
That is a very deep cut into the system as it is right now. I'd rather have a Queen limit introduced, like 2 Queens per Hatchery if it comes down to it.
?
This kind of limitation never improves gameplay. It won t because the supply cost of a unit isn t revelant of his strenght and you ll only have an illusion of fixing something (touching such parameter). If we want improve the game deeper, we can t be satisfied with small adjustement, we have to propose transversal changes regarding compartments of the game.
It would be as you propose a bandage to somebody who have lost his leg..
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On September 14 2021 20:40 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 20:36 Harris1st wrote:On September 14 2021 19:11 Vision_ wrote:
Not so long ago, i read the idea of consider creep tumor as a building, which means, Zerg has to create the tumors like the other building, morphing a drone. That s said, it could demand some adjustement but at least Zerg would care a little bit more about the defense along the edge/frontier of their mucus. It s a really good idea, the writer of this idea thought to limit the number of iteration process, but if you allow in this proposition, to re-create a tumor (when the last tumor is killed) from any other tumors (and not only the last one), you could describe a very better system of creep than actually.
That is a very deep cut into the system as it is right now. I'd rather have a Queen limit introduced, like 2 Queens per Hatchery if it comes down to it. ? This kind of limitation never improves gameplay. It won t because the supply cost of a unit isn t revelant of his strenght and you ll only have an illusion of fixing something (touching such parameter). If we want improve the game deeper, we can t be satisfied with small adjustement, we have to propose transversal changes regarding compartments of the game. It would be as you propose a bandage to somebody who have lost his leg..
You do realize there is no longer a design and/or balance team active right? IF we get anything from Blizzard, it's a bandaid.
The kind of redesign you want wasn't done with Blizzard actively developing. It sure isn't now.
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On September 14 2021 21:58 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2021 20:40 Vision_ wrote:On September 14 2021 20:36 Harris1st wrote:On September 14 2021 19:11 Vision_ wrote:
Not so long ago, i read the idea of consider creep tumor as a building, which means, Zerg has to create the tumors like the other building, morphing a drone. That s said, it could demand some adjustement but at least Zerg would care a little bit more about the defense along the edge/frontier of their mucus. It s a really good idea, the writer of this idea thought to limit the number of iteration process, but if you allow in this proposition, to re-create a tumor (when the last tumor is killed) from any other tumors (and not only the last one), you could describe a very better system of creep than actually.
That is a very deep cut into the system as it is right now. I'd rather have a Queen limit introduced, like 2 Queens per Hatchery if it comes down to it. ? This kind of limitation never improves gameplay. It won t because the supply cost of a unit isn t revelant of his strenght and you ll only have an illusion of fixing something (touching such parameter). If we want improve the game deeper, we can t be satisfied with small adjustement, we have to propose transversal changes regarding compartments of the game. It would be as you propose a bandage to somebody who have lost his leg.. You do realize there is no longer a design and/or balance team active right? IF we get anything from Blizzard, it's a bandaid. The kind of redesign you want wasn't done with Blizzard actively developing. It sure isn't now.
No i m pretty utopist but i do not exclude to contact pros player in order to summarize their feelings. I would have some questions, like, if you would keep two units of your main race which units would you chose ? or something like asking their most demanding actions in regard of bad consequences / punishement ? Which compartement would you like to rework ? etc...
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6CgMYRd.jpg)
