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In the 4 DHM Season Finals that we've had, the representative from Oceania/Rest of Asia hasn't won a single map (ie. a "free win" if you'd like). I'd like to proceed to raise the question whether the region should get a guaranteed spot.
Would it be feasible to combine the OC/Rest of Asia region with the TW/HK/MO/JP region? I don't imagine ping being too bad between all the countries involved (KR vs EU is played on NA), and I'd imagine that this would provide for a more competitive regional finals and a stronger representative in the season finals.
If this new region were to have 1 guaranteed spot, then Korea would be a reasonable recipient of the reallocated spot, as players like Rogue, Zest, Dark, and more have failed to qualify for the season finals partially due to Korea only having 6 total spots.
And if this new region were to keep its 2 spots then the most likely result is more Has 
To clarify: My first topic post on tl.net, been following SC2 for quite a few years but recently created this account. I'm open to any feedback like if the post isn't appropriate for SC2 General, etc.
As for the post itself, it isn't intended to bash the OCE region, player base or the specific representatives not mentioned by name. It's only to ask a question that I don't believe I've seen posted (feel free to link if it has), and to provide some suggestions in the interests of competitiveness and a better viewing experience. I'm well aware that ESL/DH has the final say in the matter.
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You want to 'abolish' an entire region, just because you don't believe it's providing any competitiveness or entertainment for you? All the while not intending to 'bash the region'. Pull your socks up mate.
People deserve a fair and appropriate shot at competing - and lumping the OCE region into those you've noted is just silly. Despite what your "imagination" suggests; OCE (notably the A+NZ players) already have to play with a ping issue, and having to play in those circumstances would make it worse. This is the kind of thing that leads to further deterioration of fanbase for the game as a whole; not to mention ironically - the chance for competition and entertainment.
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It s also possible to question the closed qualifiers of half players because most of them will probably be eliminated after the first group stage.
With no relation at all, I would promote every mod slowing fights of this ******* game...
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You do realize for the same reason many years ago they created region lock so Foreigners would have a chance against Koreans. If you want the game to grow as a whole you need to promote equality opportunity to the leaser, what you have in mind would just continue to diminish the game in the long term.
Imagine what the game would be if we didn't have Neeb or Serral or Reynor or Clem now.
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On July 28 2021 14:39 Scamaz wrote:
In the 4 DHM Season Finals that we've had, the representative from Oceania/Rest of Asia hasn't won a single map (ie. a "free win" if you'd like).
If you're gonna bring this up, let's take a look at those groups.
DH Summer 2020: RiSky placed in a group with Serral, Innovation, Neeb. Serral and Innovation advance. Innovation falls 3-2 to Reynor in an extremely close bo5, Serral goes on to win the entire tournament. This could reasonably be argued to be the group of death in this tournament.
DH Fall 2020: Probe placed in a group with Rogue, Clem, Special. Rogue and Clem advance. Rogue falls to Innovation in quarterfinals, Clem takes out Serral in quarters before falling to Reynor in semis. This, I would say, is the easiest group of the 4 that the ANZ players have drawn.
DH Winter 2020: Enderr placed in a group with Serral, Astrea, Trap. Serral and Astrea advance. Astrea narrowly falls to Stats in quarterfinals, who would then go on to lose in finals to Serral. I would also say this is the group of death in this tournament.
DH Summer 2021: Probe placed in a group with Maru, Reynor, and Zest. Maru and Reynor advance, and will proceed to drop a total of three games between them before meeting in the finals and playing one of the greatest TvZ series of all time. This is a group of death to end all groups of death.
Through all of this, let's keep in mind that all of these tournaments were played online, for OCE players on neutral servers so both players are dealing with ping. However, OCE internet quality is.. pretty bad, I'm not gonna lie. Probe has said before that he gets like, 250 ping playing to NA, which is almost certainly more than players from KR or EU would get.
So, after taking into consideration all of this, is it any fuckin wonder that OCE players have failed to win any maps in season finals? Not even taking into consideration how ridiculous the notion of *abolishing a region* because of perceived lack of skill or competition is, you have to look at the whole picture here, and this post just doesn't do that.
e: Also, making a whole post talking about how bad the region is and how you don't think they should be given a spot at major international competitions because of it, and then ending it with "not trying to bash the region" is a little ridiculous
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Its like saying World Cup should not allow teams from certain region to participate the tournament just because they are not good enough. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to participate and promote the esport imo. Having said that, its always likely that the OCE players get put in the toughest group because of his/her low seeding overall and cant really make it far against way better opponent.
Also, its a bit of an inconsistency on ESL part, because they dont guarantee a spot for OCE region in the IEM Ro.24, making it pretty much impossible for OCE or TW region to be in IEM Main Event, yet they still guarantee those regions the seed for DH Global Season Final. For me personally, this would be solved by simply making the Season Final a 20 players tournament, allowing 4 more seeds for KR/EU regions. This would certainly make the tournament with higher quality if they can make it work for the longer schedule and higher cost of the event.
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I think the case here is a little better than people are giving it credit for. The number of slots is meant to be at least partially based on merit—that's why, for instance, EU gets as many slots as NA, LA, and CN, despite having a lower population.
The world cup comparison is bizarre, as this is not an event where each country sends a representative, and never has been. The "well they were put in tough groups" argument doesn't really sway me either: they're there due to seeding, and seem unlikely to ever earn better seeds.
So should a scene which has never performed at all in international competition continue to get a spot in said competition? I don't know. I think there needs to be some way of a breakout player getting a shot at the finals, but the suggestion to fold them in to TW/HK/MO/JP feels like it's then punishing that region for no reason.
There's not a clear good solution, and that definitely includes the current setup where a player who is almost certainly a free win for anyone else in the competition gets in in place of an objectively stronger European or Korean.
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Technically, there's always going to be a "worst" region.
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This is a really hard to tell topic. When Blizzard went for locked region tournaments a couple of years ago, i really thought it will leads to an era of "low/bad standars of competition" as OP says, when NA and EU where far behind on the "skill gap" against KR (with maybe honored mention to Stephano, Naniwa and Scarlet).
But now, we can say this really pushed the game to an era of parity between KR and EU (and some degree NA with Neeb/Scarlet before), where you can see Reynor/Clem/Serral playing at same/better ground against KR players within a really great level of matches (many games between EU/NA/KR from the later years can be considered great games of all time). So maybe now it seems obviously unfair and maybe a free win as people says, but who knows a couple of years more ?
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On July 29 2021 04:59 QOGQOG wrote:
I think the case here is a little better than people are giving it credit for. The number of slots is meant to be at least partially based on merit—that's why, for instance, EU gets as many slots as NA, LA, and CN, despite having a lower population.
The world cup comparison is bizarre, as this is not an event where each country sends a representative, and never has been. The "well they were put in tough groups" argument doesn't really sway me either: they're there due to seeding, and seem unlikely to ever earn better seeds.
So should a scene which has never performed at all in international competition continue to get a spot in said competition? I don't know. I think there needs to be some way of a breakout player getting a shot at the finals, but the suggestion to fold them in to TW/HK/MO/JP feels like it's then punishing that region for no reason.
There's not a clear good solution, and that definitely includes the current setup where a player who is almost certainly a free win for anyone else in the competition gets in in place of an objectively stronger European or Korean.
Every country how? I was talking about the No. of slot that each continent is reserved for the World Cup final, not the qualification stage. A couple decades ago, the difference in level of football were very deep between continent, and Asian continent was by far lacking behind in term of performance and result. FIFA, to all of their corruption scandal and such, did hold firm to keep the No. of slot for Asian region increasing over the time. That ends up working out and now Asians football team is actually a factor in the WC tournament.
You cant just cite "bad result" to simply give up without actually giving more care to the issue first. Like I said, the best way is to expand the No. of player, giving more spot to the "big boys" while having some representation from lower EPT ranking region.
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I do think there is some merit to this unfortunately, I mean in the recent season finals Serral was unable to make the cut, and in his place we had to offer a seat to Probe who really didn't offer much competition in the tournament. I personally was never big on region locking in the first place, I think players like Neeb, Serral, Clem and Reynor would still have found success post kespa collapse with or without the region lock.SC2 for me was always bigger than just patriotism for any single nation, it was about crowing the best player regardless of nationality, so it might be worth it for ESL to consider combining the OCE regional into another region, if they insist on doing the WCS regional lock going forward. Combining it with TW might not be a bad idea if the ping isnt too unfair, like maybe if they played on Singapore?
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On July 30 2021 13:15 MinixTheNerd wrote:
I do think there is some merit to this unfortunately, I mean in the recent season finals Serral was unable to make the cut, and in his place we had to offer a seat to Probe who really didn't offer much competition in the tournament. I personally was never big on region locking in the first place, I think players like Neeb, Serral, Clem and Reynor would still have found success post kespa collapse with or without the region lock.SC2 for me was always bigger than just patriotism for any single nation, it was about crowing the best player regardless of nationality, so it might be worth it for ESL to consider combining the OCE regional into another region, if they insist on doing the WCS regional lock going forward. Combining it with TW might not be a bad idea if the ping isnt too unfair, like maybe if they played on Singapore?
We already have a Global Starcraft II League.
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Maybe a foreigner season finals with 8 for eu, 4 for na and 2 each of the other 4 regions where top 8 advances to a global season finals with top 8 from GSL to have good old gslvsworld/blizzcon distribution. This way weaker region OCE would have a better chance of taking some maps and series than vs the very best in the world.
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To everyone who thinks this is a bad idea, how about we give their spot to Africa?
In all seriousness, it makes no sense why the OCE region exists when the best player is consistently at the bottom of the top 100 players in the world. It especially makes no sense when there is another "region" that is already very weak and is geographically adjacent to this region. Having region lock is one thing, but that was with the purpose of promoting good games and heightening player skill for foreigners. The OCE region is literally getting weaker lol. A more deserving player should take that spot for now, and if a player in that region gets good enough to advance through the already weak TW/HK/MO/JP region the more power to em
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On July 30 2021 14:57 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 13:15 MinixTheNerd wrote:
I do think there is some merit to this unfortunately, I mean in the recent season finals Serral was unable to make the cut, and in his place we had to offer a seat to Probe who really didn't offer much competition in the tournament. I personally was never big on region locking in the first place, I think players like Neeb, Serral, Clem and Reynor would still have found success post kespa collapse with or without the region lock.SC2 for me was always bigger than just patriotism for any single nation, it was about crowing the best player regardless of nationality, so it might be worth it for ESL to consider combining the OCE regional into another region, if they insist on doing the WCS regional lock going forward. Combining it with TW might not be a bad idea if the ping isnt too unfair, like maybe if they played on Singapore? We already have a Global Starcraft II League.
Except that's literally how Koreans are qualified for the tournament.
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On July 28 2021 17:27 tigera6 wrote:
Its like saying World Cup should not allow teams from certain region to participate the tournament just because they are not good enough. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to participate and promote the esport imo. Having said that, its always likely that the OCE players get put in the toughest group because of his/her low seeding overall and cant really make it far against way better opponent.
Also, its a bit of an inconsistency on ESL part, because they dont guarantee a spot for OCE region in the IEM Ro.24, making it pretty much impossible for OCE or TW region to be in IEM Main Event, yet they still guarantee those regions the seed for DH Global Season Final. For me personally, this would be solved by simply making the Season Final a 20 players tournament, allowing 4 more seeds for KR/EU regions. This would certainly make the tournament with higher quality if they can make it work for the longer schedule and higher cost of the event.
The world cup is a bad example. Oceania doesn't have a guaranteed slot. That's why Australia moved themselves to the Asia confederation.
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EPT
