When it was announced that the EPT World Championship at IEM Katowice 2021 would be held online due to the covid-19 pandemic, ESL also announced that the prize pool would be cut in half, from $500,000 to $250,000, and that the money saved would instead be allocated to other EPT tournaments. ESL has now announced how those funds will be divided.
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
The DH Masters Last Chance tournaments will also see a minor increase in prize pool: the first place finisher will receive an additional $2,000, taking the first prize to a total of $10,000.
The prize money taken from the global tournament IEM Katowice will thus not be added to other global tournaments, meaning players' opportunity to compete for this prize pool will be determined by which region they belong to, and Korean players will not be able to compete for any, save the relatively tiny amount added to the DH Masters Last Chance first prize.
ESL also confirmed that the tournaments at IEM Katowice in 2022 as well as 2023 will each have a total prize pool of $500,000.
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
Could someone confirm this? I thought the additional prize is added into the Global Season Final, not the Regional.
I compared the updated prize pools with the ones from a couple of months ago, using archive.org. There were no changes for season finals, only for regional tournaments.
It's pretty messed up for Koreans that it is going to the regional finals only especially considering that where it was pulled from a sizable portion if not the majority would have gone to Korean players.
On April 02 2021 02:25 JJH777 wrote: It's pretty messed up for Koreans that it is going to the regional finals only especially considering that where it was pulled from a sizable portion if not the majority would have gone to Korean players.
ESL - guys, we will solve the map pool Community - yay for ESL ESL - guys, do you remember how removed 250k USD from the international Katowice? Now we moved the money internationally everywhere EXCEPT Korea! Community - this can't be true, say again?
Doesn't look like an April Fools' joke to me. Hurray! I'd like to see Rogue, Serral or Maru finally eclipse that $1 million mark earned in prize money. Wonder who will get there first and when, maybe early or late 2022.
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
Could someone confirm this? I thought the additional prize is added into the Global Season Final, not the Regional.
Dude, you literally quoted it with the source link, can you check yourself?
Considering I don't know what the previous prizes were for the regional finals, but it appears so.
Sorry for not elaborating, but I already checked and find that the prize pool showed in the link is about the same with the prize pool of the DH Tournament in 2020, both for Global and Regional tournament. That means the additional 41k hasnt been added into those prize pool yet. Thats why I said if someone can confirm this because it seems the information is still lacking
The three instalments of the DH Masters tour (Summer, Fall, Winter) will each see its prize pool increased by $41,000 both this year and next year. This added prize money will be allocated to the regional qualification tournaments (Europe, NA, etc) and thus not to the main Season Finals tournaments.
Could someone confirm this? I thought the additional prize is added into the Global Season Final, not the Regional.
Dude, you literally quoted it with the source link, can you check yourself?
Considering I don't know what the previous prizes were for the regional finals, but it appears so.
Sorry for not elaborating, but I already checked and find that the prize pool showed in the link is about the same with the prize pool of the DH Tournament in 2020, both for Global and Regional tournament. That means the additional 41k hasnt been added into those prize pool yet. Thats why I said if someone can confirm this because it seems the information is still lacking
On April 02 2021 02:25 JJH777 wrote: It's pretty messed up for Koreans that it is going to the regional finals only especially considering that where it was pulled from a sizable portion if not the majority would have gone to Korean players.
Yah this is insanely unfair
And since it would have been very easy to just add (at least part of) the prize money to the Season Finals tournaments, this has to be completely intentional by ESL. Why do they want it this way??
On April 02 2021 02:25 JJH777 wrote: It's pretty messed up for Koreans that it is going to the regional finals only especially considering that where it was pulled from a sizable portion if not the majority would have gone to Korean players.
Yah this is insanely unfair
And since it would have been very easy to just add (at least part of) the prize money to the Season Finals tournaments, this has to be completely intentional by ESL. Why do they want it this way??
1) Koreans are silent on social media. (e.g. region lock) 2) Korean support is frormed by a small but dedicated group 3) Most of their followers support foreigners
In combination of these points they just simply bet that the uproar will be small and plenty of people will defend them, because foreigner fan base on the social media appears to be bigger.
Simple math, really.
I would love to be wrong though.
Edit> Also why invest into the Korean scene when there are good players, but the scene is on a life support and will implode once Blizz takes away the money. Foreign audience is bigger. So they simply decided to take away the Korean money and support foreigners.
Doesn't this mean that at least some Koreans will benefit from this:
GSL & EPT INTEGRATION Starting from the 2021/2022 season, players competing within the GSL will also be able to compete within the ESL Pro Tour. The best performing 6 players from the GSL will earn qualification to compete at the subsequent DreamHack SC2 Masters competition & upon the return of DreamHack festivals will also be able to travel & compete within the respective tournament open brackets.
On April 02 2021 05:08 vyzion wrote: Doesn't this mean that at least some Koreans will benefit from this:
GSL & EPT INTEGRATION Starting from the 2021/2022 season, players competing within the GSL will also be able to compete within the ESL Pro Tour. The best performing 6 players from the GSL will earn qualification to compete at the subsequent DreamHack SC2 Masters competition & upon the return of DreamHack festivals will also be able to travel & compete within the respective tournament open brackets.
No, the events mentioned in that paragraph receive 0 % of what was cut from Katowice and are basically the DH Masters we already had. So they were already open to Koreans to begin with.
On April 02 2021 05:08 vyzion wrote: Doesn't this mean that at least some Koreans will benefit from this:
GSL & EPT INTEGRATION Starting from the 2021/2022 season, players competing within the GSL will also be able to compete within the ESL Pro Tour. The best performing 6 players from the GSL will earn qualification to compete at the subsequent DreamHack SC2 Masters competition & upon the return of DreamHack festivals will also be able to travel & compete within the respective tournament open brackets.
No, the events mentioned in that paragraph receive 0 % of what was cut from Katowice and are basically the DH Masters we already had. So they were already open to Koreans to begin with.
Didn't the OP write they increased the prize pool of some of the international tourneys by 2k? That's 0,8 % going there!
Oh come the fuck on, give the Korean scene a hand here?
I mean can Blizzard’s intern not manage a war chest for the GSL? I’d be happy to directly support those tournaments which are really low-paying for the calibre of player there, screw getting a skin or anything.
Just some mechanism where we could put our collective money where our mouths are, I’d happily chip in.
That's insanely unfair to the Koreans if this is true. They are shafted again and again. Everything is stacked against them. We need to speak up more for them and against this terrible arrangement. This isn't the first time, and I don't think it'll be the last either.
Isn't this kind of natural reaction to people wanting flatter price distribution? Putting money on the regional events is better in that regard, than putting it to seasonal finals.They of course could increase GSL price pool too, but GSL is mostly run by AfreecaTV making it bit odd to ESL to increase prestige of event not mainly run by them. Also I could see possible issues how the contracts work between all parties. On another note how much is there to gain from pumping money in Korean scene while knowing its current state. Remember that GSL had to move from 32 players to 24 players this year. Increased price pool would most likely not fix issue of Koreans having low interest in SC2 or increase amount of new competitors.
On April 02 2021 12:59 Legan wrote: Isn't this kind of natural reaction to people wanting flatter price distribution? Putting money on the regional events is better in that regard, than putting it to seasonal finals.They of course could increase GSL price pool too, but GSL is mostly run by AfreecaTV making it bit odd to ESL to increase prestige of event not mainly run by them. Also I could see possible issues how the contracts work between all parties. On another note how much is there to gain from pumping money in Korean scene while knowing its current state. Remember that GSL had to move from 32 players to 24 players this year. Increased price pool would most likely not fix issue of Koreans having low interest in SC2 or increase amount of new competitors.
In a vacuum yes but after pulling money from Katowice, where Korea’s finest did pretty well despite not taking home the trophy, to basically redistribute that primarily back into the already healthier foreign scene is a bit shit really.
Especially after being region locked out for so long, with a decline of international tournaments over the last few years, it’s a bit rough. To pick one random player, a Zoun would be pretty competitive in foreign regions, but GSL is still pretty damn cutthroat and his breakout performance was at ST which has a pretty pathetic prize pool for the quality of the field.
I’m not sure it’s a good move long term, but then given the state of affairs I’m not sure ESL are looking long term. I don’t think big international tournaments have nearly the same appeal without the Koreans who’ve been left to wither on the vine for too long, but I think there’s still enough quality even with military callups to last for a year or two and keeping interest.
Call me a pessimist but I think ESL have made the calculation that the current Korean contingent will hang around for a few years and bring eyes to the product, and then they’ll pull back on their SC2 ambitions.
If that weren’t the case and there was more of a long-term focus, then I think there’d be more love shown to Korea for the scene’s long-term health.
Hey it’s wild speculation and I don’t doubt ESL’s passion for the game, I think they underestimated quite the extent Blizzard would drop maintenance of the game. I hope to be wrong on this but it’s one thing to handle the tournament side of the game and have Blizz do some housekeeping, maps and balance tweaks, it’s quite another to commit to running a competitive circuit for a game that may have a stagnant map pool for forever and no patches.
On April 02 2021 12:59 Legan wrote: Isn't this kind of natural reaction to people wanting flatter price distribution? Putting money on the regional events is better in that regard, than putting it to seasonal finals.They of course could increase GSL price pool too, but GSL is mostly run by AfreecaTV making it bit odd to ESL to increase prestige of event not mainly run by them. Also I could see possible issues how the contracts work between all parties. On another note how much is there to gain from pumping money in Korean scene while knowing its current state. Remember that GSL had to move from 32 players to 24 players this year. Increased price pool would most likely not fix issue of Koreans having low interest in SC2 or increase amount of new competitors.
Regarding flatter prize distribution, keep in mind they cut this money entirely from an internationally open event. And out of the 250,000 they cut, only 4,000 go back to events that aren't region-locked - even between foreigners which is simply put not fair to anyone. And those 4,000 only go to the champions of 2 events so that's not very flat either.
And regarding your "how much is there to gain statement", ESL reallocated 246,000 $ to the EPT regions:
114,000 to EU 51,600 to NA 21,000 to LatAm 21,000 to China 19,200 to Taiwan 19,200 to SEA
How much do you think there is to gain by giving even 1 extra dollar to SEA?
On April 02 2021 12:59 Legan wrote: Isn't this kind of natural reaction to people wanting flatter price distribution? Putting money on the regional events is better in that regard, than putting it to seasonal finals.They of course could increase GSL price pool too, but GSL is mostly run by AfreecaTV making it bit odd to ESL to increase prestige of event not mainly run by them. Also I could see possible issues how the contracts work between all parties. On another note how much is there to gain from pumping money in Korean scene while knowing its current state. Remember that GSL had to move from 32 players to 24 players this year. Increased price pool would most likely not fix issue of Koreans having low interest in SC2 or increase amount of new competitors.
Regarding flatter prize distribution, keep in mind they cut this money entirely from an internationally open event. And out of the 250,000 they cut, only 4,000 go back to events that aren't region-locked - even between foreigners which is simply put not fair to anyone. And those 4,000 only go to the champions of 2 events so that's not very flat either.
And regarding your "how much is there to gain statement", ESL reallocated 246,000 $ to the EPT regions:
114,000 to EU 51,600 to NA 21,000 to LatAm 21,000 to China 19,200 to Taiwan 19,200 to SEA 0 to Korea
How much do you think there is to gain by giving even 1 extra dollar to SEA?
There, fixed
How can we expect them remembering Korea exists if we are not mentioning them at all?
Edit> At this moment we can only hope that Koreans get some defense from Artosis and The Pylon Show, but I am sceptical about that either. BEcause let's face it, we don't really matter xD (especially me, who's not watching ESL already :D )
So your plan would be ESL giving free money to another company, or giving more money to the top 16 of the world, on a game with already a declining\stable at best player base?
On April 02 2021 20:54 StarcraftPeffo wrote: So your plan would be ESL giving free money to another company, or giving more money to the top 16 of the world, on a game with already a declining\stable at best player base?
This forum is weird.
You do realize they did take that money from the non region locked international tournament where Koreans could take a money and did send 0 to Korea? You do realize they could have done a 'Code B' style tournament for those who couldn't qualify at Korea for some cash? As an example.
Like they could do shit with the money for Koreans, they just ignored them. I don't know where did you get the stupid top16 argument.
Edit> Yeah, this forum is weird. They care about Koreans and the Korean scene, what a weird thing to do. What did Koreans do for Starcraft anyway? Screw them like ESL just did!
On April 04 2021 02:02 TheSayo182 wrote: If koreans are so entertaining they could someway sustain themselves
If non Koreans were good enough to deserve this extra money for no reason Koreans wouldn't take 15/24 of the top spots at Katowice and 8 of the top 12.
The fact that this 250 k was announced for a full open tournament and than they redistribute it to everyone but koreans is utterly unfair. Split it between regions evenly its not that hard.
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
Its not the fault of Korean players that EU players has less prize money in 2021 compare to 2020. Just because you make less money, doesnt give you the RIGHT to get ALL the extra money when it was supposed to be splitted among all players in the IEM. Its very shady to give money from Global tournament into Regional competition and give no good reason for it whatsoever other than the "poor me" excuse. I would love to see top KR players would now flood the EPT Open Cup and take all the prize money from the EU/NA region for the entire year.
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
This statement is factually wrong.
The term "region lock" in starcraft is commonly referred as the system that block Korean player from entering (WCS circuit) competitions that is not held in korea. The situation regarding this had not changed in the slightest form since ESL took charge of the starcraft competition.
The closest we got about any change is the tweet from apollo from last year that they are looking at changing that.
Unless you (deliberately) use another definition, your statement is wrong.
Of course you will counter agrue that the pandamic lead to lock down in almost every country, thus region lock. But that is not the same definition of region lock we commonly refer to. And add to that there is no indication / hint that korean players would be allowed to attend any non-korean (ESL/ WCS) competition even if there is no pandemic.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
This statement is factually wrong.
The term "region lock" in starcraft is commonly referred as the system that block Korean player from entering (WCS circuit) competitions that is not held in korea. The situation regarding this had not changed in the slightest form since ESL took charge of the starcraft competition.
The closest we got about any change is the tweet from apollo from last year that they are looking at changing that.
Unless you (deliberately) use another definition, your statement is wrong.
Of course you will counter agrue that the pandamic lead to lock down in almost every country, thus region lock. But that is not the same definition of region lock we commonly refer to. And add to that there is no indication / hint that korean players would be allowed to attend any non-korean (ESL/ WCS) competition even if there is no pandemic.
You must have missed a step, ESL's plans were revealed after that tweet and there will be open, cross region tournaments. The insurgence of the pandemic significantly slowed the removal of region lock, this regional system is not what they originally had in mind.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
It's really very simple. The $500k prize pool for the global event at Katowice was cut in half by the organizers, they then redistributed it to particular regions instead of other global events that all players are eligible for. Of course this is unfair.
And they really didn't have to do it like this. They could easily have boosted the prize pools at the season finals tournaments (more money at the top) and the ESL Open Cups (more money at the bottom-ish). But they decided to put all of it (save a measly $4k) in particular regions.
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
The money that was re-distributed partly belong to the Korean players before it was taken away for "fairness" reason. It was not about the great scheme of thing, just simple fairness of esport competition and prize. So just because I made more money than you, its OK for you to take my money (or part of it) because you need it more? Dude, you need to really understand the problem before posting further,
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
On April 06 2021 00:26 sneakyfox wrote: It's really very simple. The $500k prize pool for the global event at Katowice was cut in half by the organizers, they then redistributed it to particular regions instead of other global events that all players are eligible for. Of course this is unfair.
Ok, but why is this move unfair? We've known since January 21 that they were doing this. In the 2020-2021 season, the total prize pool for global events was $318,000, not counting any IEM Katowice tournaments. The top players were largely the same across the top 8 of these tournaments.
If the argument is that players like Zoun are getting less money because of not increasing global tournament prize pools, then I would argue that there are a greater number of foreigners who do not show up regularly in the top 8 (uThermal, Neeb, Astrea, for instance) than non-top Koreans. Thus, if we're talking about players who have lost more due to a reduced global prize pool, I would say that foreigners over Koreans have lost the potential to gain more.
What is unfair about moving prize pool money away from the top earners and towards those who earn significantly less? The lowest qualified person in the 2021 GSL Season 1 makes $2,000 USD (top 16). A top 16 earner in the Europe region makes $1,600 USD. A top 16 earner in the NA region makes even less.
Players like Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor, and Innovation don't need to make more money. In fact, prize pool distribution was historically a problem for the Korean regions, as the winners and finalists made so much more money than those who reached the ro32.
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
The money that was re-distributed partly belong to the Korean players before it was taken away for "fairness" reason. It was not about the great scheme of thing, just simple fairness of esport competition and prize. So just because I made more money than you, its OK for you to take my money (or part of it) because you need it more? Dude, you need to really understand the problem before posting further,
We're talking about longevity of the overall scene, so a bit more money to those who only reach say the top 16 or top 8 or their region is more impactful than even several thousand dollars more to the top earners.
Also, prize pool money doesn't belong to any one player. ESL is free to distribute the prize pool however they want. In your example, ESL is not taking your money; ESL is taking the potential of your money, but you have not gained (or lost) this money. You're talking about this money as if the results were preordained, that the money definitely would have gone to some players. There is no guarantee that a particular player would have earned this money, and indeed, Reynor seems to have lost the most given that he won IEM Katowice.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
That is delusional though
Everything is online. Region lock exists becaue of the pandemic. Logic ... That's why I try to ignore him.
On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote: Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK
Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
That is delusional though
Everything is online. Region lock exists becaue of the pandemic. Logic ... That's why I try to ignore him.[/QUOTE]
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic. ESL has already stated that their intention for the 2021/2022 season and, even more, 2022/2023 is to make Dreamhack events not regionally restricted; the current conditions of travel have obstacled and delayed this transition. There is no need to ask for a removal of the region lock, it has already been planned.
I don't have to tell you that there were dozen of international events last year, a method to have zero ping for cross server play is yet to be found; are you suggesting ESL should have opened regional tournaments to everyone either forcing all the players or just the ones not native to the region to play on high ping?
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans.
But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories.
Foreign + group stage is $108,750 + 1,900 for victories
Korean + group stage is $135,250 + 4,100 for victories
Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows
Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool.
Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions.
Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group.
As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia,GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region.
Qualified players in EPT: 80 Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40
Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans.
But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories.
Foreign + group stage is $108,750 + 1,900 for victories
Korean + group stage is $135,250 + 4,100 for victories
Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows
Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool.
Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions.
Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group.
As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia,GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region.
Qualified players in EPT: 80 Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40
Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region.
They removed the money from one of the few unlocked tournaments accessible to both foreigners and Koreans and moved them towards everybody except Koreans. To my view that's removing money from Koreans hands to other hands. It doesn't matter how much money they would have won or wouldn't. The point is that now they can't.
No matter how you sugarcoat it, they did just this. Removed money from Katowice - Koreans eligible tournament. Moved them to the tournaments where Koreans cannot participate while investing 0 into the Korea. Sugarcoat it all you want, that's stealing in my book. Especially because I believe part of the money was from Blizzard... (if not all)
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic.
Region lock has been enforced for several years by now so sayig there is regional lock because there is a pandemy is delusional and false.
To add a bit more, ESL can perfectly hold tournaments with a regional sever to be play on by default, Something they have been doing in the past. That would be more on the direction of "region lock is bad for sc2 and we aim to remove it". Instead we have region locked tournaments and delusional people like you defending them with broken logic.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: So, my question is this:
EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
Additionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get:
EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8)
GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16)
Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players.
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans.
But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories.
Foreign + group stage is $108,750 + 1,900 for victories
Korean + group stage is $135,250 + 4,100 for victories
Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows
Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool.
Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions.
Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group.
As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote: EPL 2020-2021
According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia,GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2)
EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3)
In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region.
EPL 2021-2022
For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was
EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original source
The new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) Updated
I do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments
Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region.
Qualified players in EPT: 80 Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40
Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region.
They removed the money from one of the few unlocked tournaments accessible to both foreigners and Koreans and moved them towards everybody except Koreans. To my view that's removing money from Koreans hands to other hands. It doesn't matter how much money they would have won or wouldn't. The point is that now they can't.
No matter how you sugarcoat it, they did just this. Removed money from Katowice - Koreans eligible tournament. Moved them to the tournaments where Koreans cannot participate while investing 0 into the Korea. Sugarcoat it all you want, that's stealing in my book. Especially because I believe part of the money was from Blizzard... (if not all)
And you know what, that's fair. I can see how you view this situation in this way, and though I view it somewhat differently, I can respect that you view what Blizzard/ESL did as stealing.
I have just one note, though. There were more tournaments that were global than tournaments that were region locked last season. The number is even bigger if you count tournaments in which Koreans could compete.
Unlocked: IEM Katowice 2020 TSL 5 DHM: Summer Finals DHM: Fall Finals DHM Winter Finals King of Battles TSL 6 DHM Last Chance
Locked: DHM: Summer DHM: Fall DHM: Winter
The DHM count as one tournament because players cannot double dip unless you count GSL as part of the DHM circuit.
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic.
Region lock has been enforced for several years by now so sayig there is regional lock because there is a pandemy is delusional and false.
To add a bit more, ESL can perfectly hold tournaments with a regional sever to be play on by default, Something they have been doing in the past. That would be more on the direction of "region lock is bad for sc2 and we aim to remove it". Instead we have region locked tournaments and delusional people like you defending them with broken logic.
I guess I should have written "still exists" but using "right now" should allow everyone to understand that I am speaking of the current state of SC2's pro circuit.
ESL is planning to have region lock gradually removed because they feel non korean scene is healthy and strong enough not to crumble like it was happening before 2016; keep for yourself the idea region lock is bad for Sc2, it definitely helped saving the foreign scene and essentially the game itself. It's not "bad", it may be not necessary anymore.
It wasn't ESL but WCS during HoTS that allowed regional qualifiers open to anyone to happen on default servers; apart of being an obvious step backwards, that would make little sense in an era in which the gap in skill is significantly narrowed making both EU to KR and KR to EU essentially unplayable.
On April 06 2021 04:37 FrkFrJss wrote: I have just one note, though. There were more tournaments that were global than tournaments that were region locked last season. The number is even bigger if you count tournaments in which Koreans could compete.
Unlocked: IEM Katowice 2020 TSL 5 DHM: Summer Finals DHM: Fall Finals DHM Winter Finals King of Battles TSL 6 DHM Last Chance
Locked: DHM: Summer DHM: Fall DHM: Winter
The DHM count as one tournament because players cannot double dip unless you count GSL as part of the DHM circuit.
You should not consider TSL5/6, King of Battles or StayatHomeStory Cup since they are not ESL events.
But that's the whole point of this thread about the other tournaments that you mentioned (the Season Finals) - that they could have allocated the prize money to those tournaments and it'll be fair (since the Koreans can compete there), but instead it's going only to the Regional tournaments, in which the Koreans can't compete.
I dont event mind if ESL just put the money back into the recent IEM. Let Reynor has his mega-payday because he EARNED it. Thre is nothing wrong with EU players making more than KR if they winning. There is a big problem, however, if other regions are making money on the prize that was supposed to be EQUALLY shared by all players through competition. And just dont bring up how this is to "save the SC2 scence", because it is a very bad agurment to make.Sacrifice on part of the population to help others is never a wise choice, unless its voluntary.
EPT
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