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On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:
I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions.
However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners.
I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
Its not the fault of Korean players that EU players has less prize money in 2021 compare to 2020. Just because you make less money, doesnt give you the RIGHT to get ALL the extra money when it was supposed to be splitted among all players in the IEM. Its very shady to give money from Global tournament into Regional competition and give no good reason for it whatsoever other than the "poor me" excuse.
I would love to see top KR players would now flood the EPT Open Cup and take all the prize money from the EU/NA region for the entire year.
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On April 05 2021 08:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote:
Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
This statement is factually wrong.
The term "region lock" in starcraft is commonly referred as the system that block Korean player from entering (WCS circuit) competitions that is not held in korea. The situation regarding this had not changed in the slightest form since ESL took charge of the starcraft competition.
The closest we got about any change is the tweet from apollo from last year that they are looking at changing that.
Unless you (deliberately) use another definition, your statement is wrong.
Of course you will counter agrue that the pandamic lead to lock down in almost every country, thus region lock. But that is not the same definition of region lock we commonly refer to. And add to that there is no indication / hint that korean players would be allowed to attend any non-korean (ESL/ WCS) competition even if there is no pandemic.
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On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong.
You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch.
The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
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On April 05 2021 13:36 mounteast0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 08:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote:
Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic. This statement is factually wrong. The term "region lock" in starcraft is commonly referred as the system that block Korean player from entering (WCS circuit) competitions that is not held in korea. The situation regarding this had not changed in the slightest form since ESL took charge of the starcraft competition. The closest we got about any change is the tweet from apollo from last year that they are looking at changing that. Unless you (deliberately) use another definition, your statement is wrong. Of course you will counter agrue that the pandamic lead to lock down in almost every country, thus region lock. But that is not the same definition of region lock we commonly refer to. And add to that there is no indication / hint that korean players would be allowed to attend any non-korean (ESL/ WCS) competition even if there is no pandemic.
You must have missed a step, ESL's plans were revealed after that tweet and there will be open, cross region tournaments.
The insurgence of the pandemic significantly slowed the removal of region lock, this regional system is not what they originally had in mind.
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On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
Go for it.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness.
That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys? 
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On April 05 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness. That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys?
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
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It's really very simple. The $500k prize pool for the global event at Katowice was cut in half by the organizers, they then redistributed it to particular regions instead of other global events that all players are eligible for. Of course this is unfair.
And they really didn't have to do it like this. They could easily have boosted the prize pools at the season finals tournaments (more money at the top) and the ESL Open Cups (more money at the bottom-ish). But they decided to put all of it (save a measly $4k) in particular regions.
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On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
The money that was re-distributed partly belong to the Korean players before it was taken away for "fairness" reason. It was not about the great scheme of thing, just simple fairness of esport competition and prize. So just because I made more money than you, its OK for you to take my money (or part of it) because you need it more? Dude, you need to really understand the problem before posting further,
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On April 05 2021 08:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote:
Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic.
That is delusional though
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On April 06 2021 00:26 sneakyfox wrote:
It's really very simple. The $500k prize pool for the global event at Katowice was cut in half by the organizers, they then redistributed it to particular regions instead of other global events that all players are eligible for. Of course this is unfair. Ok, but why is this move unfair? We've known since January 21 that they were doing this. In the 2020-2021 season, the total prize pool for global events was $318,000, not counting any IEM Katowice tournaments. The top players were largely the same across the top 8 of these tournaments.
If the argument is that players like Zoun are getting less money because of not increasing global tournament prize pools, then I would argue that there are a greater number of foreigners who do not show up regularly in the top 8 (uThermal, Neeb, Astrea, for instance) than non-top Koreans. Thus, if we're talking about players who have lost more due to a reduced global prize pool, I would say that foreigners over Koreans have lost the potential to gain more.
What is unfair about moving prize pool money away from the top earners and towards those who earn significantly less? The lowest qualified person in the 2021 GSL Season 1 makes $2,000 USD (top 16). A top 16 earner in the Europe region makes $1,600 USD. A top 16 earner in the NA region makes even less.
Players like Dark, Trap, Serral, Reynor, and Innovation don't need to make more money. In fact, prize pool distribution was historically a problem for the Korean regions, as the winners and finalists made so much more money than those who reached the ro32.
On April 06 2021 00:37 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:
It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution.
And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
The money that was re-distributed partly belong to the Korean players before it was taken away for "fairness" reason. It was not about the great scheme of thing, just simple fairness of esport competition and prize. So just because I made more money than you, its OK for you to take my money (or part of it) because you need it more? Dude, you need to really understand the problem before posting further, We're talking about longevity of the overall scene, so a bit more money to those who only reach say the top 16 or top 8 or their region is more impactful than even several thousand dollars more to the top earners.
Also, prize pool money doesn't belong to any one player. ESL is free to distribute the prize pool however they want. In your example, ESL is not taking your money; ESL is taking the potential of your money, but you have not gained (or lost) this money. You're talking about this money as if the results were preordained, that the money definitely would have gone to some players. There is no guarantee that a particular player would have earned this money, and indeed, Reynor seems to have lost the most given that he won IEM Katowice.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness. That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys? It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution. And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene?
How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
On April 06 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 08:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote:
Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic. That is delusional though
Everything is online. Region lock exists becaue of the pandemic. Logic ...
That's why I try to ignore him.
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.. On April 06 2021 00:52 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 08:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 05 2021 04:28 Argonauta wrote:
Rough if true. I am thinking of the ryungs, patiences, dreams, zouns, princes armanis,... etc that also deserve some love to stay competitive,. Also:
REMOVE REGION LOCK Right now region lock exists because of the pandemic. That is delusional though
Everything is online. Region lock exists becaue of the pandemic. Logic ...
That's why I try to ignore him.[/QUOTE]
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic.
ESL has already stated that their intention for the 2021/2022 season and, even more, 2022/2023 is to make Dreamhack events not regionally restricted; the current conditions of travel have obstacled and delayed this transition.
There is no need to ask for a removal of the region lock, it has already been planned.
I don't have to tell you that there were dozen of international events last year, a method to have zero ping for cross server play is yet to be found; are you suggesting ESL should have opened regional tournaments to everyone either forcing all the players or just the ones not native to the region to play on high ping?
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On April 06 2021 03:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 05 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness. That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys? It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution. And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene? How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans...
First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans.
But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories.
Foreign + group stage is
$108,750 + 1,900 for victories
Korean + group stage is
$135,250 + 4,100 for victories
Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows
Korean (135,250 + 4,100 = 139,350) - Foreign (108,750 + 1,900 = 110,650) = $28,700
Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool.
Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions.
Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group.
As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion.
On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000)
(55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900)
(74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post
For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region.
Qualified players in EPT: 80
Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40
Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On April 06 2021 04:09 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2021 03:11 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 05 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness. That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys? It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution. And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene? How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans... First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans. But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories. Foreign + group stage is $108,750 + 1,900 for victories Korean + group stage is $135,250 + 4,100 for victories Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows Korean (135,250 + 4,100 = 139,350) - Foreign (108,750 + 1,900 = 110,650) = $28,700 Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool. Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions. Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group. As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion. Show nested quote +On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000)
(55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900)
(74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region. Qualified players in EPT: 80 Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40 Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region.
They removed the money from one of the few unlocked tournaments accessible to both foreigners and Koreans and moved them towards everybody except Koreans. To my view that's removing money from Koreans hands to other hands. It doesn't matter how much money they would have won or wouldn't. The point is that now they can't.
No matter how you sugarcoat it, they did just this. Removed money from Katowice - Koreans eligible tournament. Moved them to the tournaments where Koreans cannot participate while investing 0 into the Korea. Sugarcoat it all you want, that's stealing in my book. Especially because I believe part of the money was from Blizzard... (if not all)
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On April 06 2021 03:34 Xain0n wrote:
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic.
Region lock has been enforced for several years by now so sayig there is regional lock because there is a pandemy is delusional and false.
To add a bit more, ESL can perfectly hold tournaments with a regional sever to be play on by default, Something they have been doing in the past. That would be more on the direction of "region lock is bad for sc2 and we aim to remove it". Instead we have region locked tournaments and delusional people like you defending them with broken logic.
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On April 06 2021 04:18 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2021 04:09 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 06 2021 03:11 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 23:47 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 05 2021 21:41 deacon.frost wrote:On April 05 2021 19:10 Shathe wrote:On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:So, my question is this: EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000) (55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900) (74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog postAdditionally, if we consider the total paid and qualified player base (I'm counting those who qualified for the main tournament and were paid), we get: EPT (80 per season) (32 + 16 + 8 + 8 + 8 + 8) GSL (40 per season) (24 + 16) Thus, the Korean region has a total of 430,800 with a total number of 40 (or 120 for all three seasons) players. Thus, the EPT region has a total of 402,900 with a total number of 80 (or 240 for all three seasons) players. I suppose the argument could be that because the Korean region is stronger overall, they should get a greater degree of the prize pool. Also, because the foreign regions are technically healthier than the Korean region, the Korean region needs more money to sustain itself than the foreign regions. However, the EPT region was only going to get 300,000 total, which would be significantly lower than the Korean region, and as it is now, they still get a smaller amount of the prize pool despite paying out winnings to an overall larger group of players. Additionally, Korean players tend to do better in the global tournaments, which results in them winning a larger percentage of the overall prize pool than the foreigners. I'm just confused about why this redistribution is wrong. You are missing the point. Most people wouldnt be upset if the change of money distribution favouring foreigners was implemented in the first place from scratch. The problem is that it was an alredy promised winnable price for EVERYONE. And now they exclude the Koreans. I find it unacceptable and honestly am disappointed in the lack of outrage. Maybe simeone should make a reddit post about this to raise awareness. That's why ESL done it. So many defenders of them vs so few people who care about the Korean scene. Simple sad math, really. At least people now know about the plan of looking at the region lock. Hey, if we kill the Korean scene, there won't be any issues with the region lock, right guys? It's this point that I don't really get. I can understand people being mad about a winnable prize pool being given to one side over the other, but the Korean region prize pool is already larger than the entire EPT region after the prize redistribution. And, as I said in my post, the EPT serves double the number of qualified players. So, we have a fewer number of Koreans winner a larger prize pool. How is this "killing" the Korean scene? How is stealing half the money from a toyurnament eligible for Koreans and not giving a single fuck about them fair to Koreans? How is this not moving towards "let's kill them fasters"? What are we discussing here? They just literally shifted half the prize pool from Katowice towards everyone except Koreans... First, I do think we need to move away from this language of "stealing." No one spot is guaranteed. On a given day we might have had Serral vs Reynor, or on another given day, we might have the top 8 be all Koreans. But for sake of argument, I looked it up, and according to the Liquipedia page, the total prize pool was $244,000 USD with $6,000 USD reserved for Group stage victories. Foreign + group stage is $108,750 + 1,900 for victories Korean + group stage is $135,250 + 4,100 for victories Let's assume that everything is doubled in a world with a $500,000 USD prize pool as opposed to the rather imbalanced $150,000 USD that Rogue received for the 2020 IEM Katowice. The excess from that extra $250,000 of Korean vs Foreign winnings is as follows Korean (135,250 + 4,100 = 139,350) - Foreign (108,750 + 1,900 = 110,650) = $28,700 Thus, at best, if we were to take the argument that ESL "stole" Korean prize money, the Koreans would only end up with an extra $28,700 dollars. We cannot even say that ESL "stole" 250,000, as foreigners achieved 44.26% of the total prize pool. Reynor is by far the biggest loser of this potential prize pool, with $65,000 going from him to the other regions. Now, I know that on a given day, Reynor could have lost to any of the Koreans and made the prize pool disparity that much bigger in favour of the Koreans. But arguably, I think we could say that Serral could have made the finals against only Protoss (after Clem), and then that would have shifted the prize pool in favour of the foreigners. It just shows you that prize money is not preordained, and so you can't claim it for any one group. As for the second part of your argument, the evidence does not square with this opinion. On April 05 2021 12:13 FrkFrJss wrote:EPL 2020-2021According to the 2020-2021 EPL on Liquipedia, GSL and ST gave a combined prizepool of: 480,000 (120,000 x 3 + 30,000 x 2) EPT regionlocked tournaments gave a total of (366,000) (84,000 x 3 + 38,000 x 3) In the previous EPL, the total prize pool for the Korean region was larger than the foreign region. EPL 2021-2022For the 2021-2022 season, the original amount was EPT Regional gave a total of (300,000)
(55,000 x 3 + 25,000 x 3 + 11,000 x 3 + 9,000 x 3) Original sourceThe new EPT regionals give a total of (402,900)
(74,000 x 3 + 33,600 x 3 + 14,500 x 3 + 12,200 * 3) UpdatedI do not know if there was an original amount for the GSL tournaments Currently, the total prize pool is (430,800) (118,000 x 3 + 25,600 x 3) Afreecatv blog post For both 2020-2021 season and the 2021-2022 season, the Korean region has consistently received higher prize pools than the rest of the world combined. ESL cannot be said to be "killing them faster" if they receive a greater prize pool for a fewer number of qualified players in their region. Qualified players in EPT: 80 Qualified players in GSL + ST: 40 Half the number of players in the GSL receive prize pool money versus the foreign region. They removed the money from one of the few unlocked tournaments accessible to both foreigners and Koreans and moved them towards everybody except Koreans. To my view that's removing money from Koreans hands to other hands. It doesn't matter how much money they would have won or wouldn't. T he point is that now they can't.No matter how you sugarcoat it, they did just this. Removed money from Katowice - Koreans eligible tournament. Moved them to the tournaments where Koreans cannot participate while investing 0 into the Korea. Sugarcoat it all you want, that's stealing in my book. Especially because I believe part of the money was from Blizzard... (if not all) And you know what, that's fair. I can see how you view this situation in this way, and though I view it somewhat differently, I can respect that you view what Blizzard/ESL did as stealing.
I have just one note, though. There were more tournaments that were global than tournaments that were region locked last season. The number is even bigger if you count tournaments in which Koreans could compete.
Unlocked:
IEM Katowice 2020
TSL 5
DHM: Summer Finals
DHM: Fall Finals
DHM Winter Finals
King of Battles
TSL 6
DHM Last Chance
Locked:
DHM: Summer
DHM: Fall
DHM: Winter
The DHM count as one tournament because players cannot double dip unless you count GSL as part of the DHM circuit.
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On April 06 2021 04:19 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2021 03:34 Xain0n wrote:
The regional restricted tournaments exist, right now, because free travel is impossible due to the pandemic.
Region lock has been enforced for several years by now so sayig there is regional lock because there is a pandemy is delusional and false. To add a bit more, ESL can perfectly hold tournaments with a regional sever to be play on by default, Something they have been doing in the past. That would be more on the direction of "region lock is bad for sc2 and we aim to remove it". Instead we have region locked tournaments and delusional people like you defending them with broken logic.
I guess I should have written "still exists" but using "right now" should allow everyone to understand that I am speaking of the current state of SC2's pro circuit.
ESL is planning to have region lock gradually removed because they feel non korean scene is healthy and strong enough not to crumble like it was happening before 2016; keep for yourself the idea region lock is bad for Sc2, it definitely helped saving the foreign scene and essentially the game itself. It's not "bad", it may be not necessary anymore.
It wasn't ESL but WCS during HoTS that allowed regional qualifiers open to anyone to happen on default servers; apart of being an obvious step backwards, that would make little sense in an era in which the gap in skill is significantly narrowed making both EU to KR and KR to EU essentially unplayable.
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On April 06 2021 04:37 FrkFrJss wrote:
I have just one note, though. There were more tournaments that were global than tournaments that were region locked last season. The number is even bigger if you count tournaments in which Koreans could compete.
Unlocked:
IEM Katowice 2020
TSL 5
DHM: Summer Finals
DHM: Fall Finals
DHM Winter Finals
King of Battles
TSL 6
DHM Last Chance
Locked:
DHM: Summer
DHM: Fall
DHM: Winter
The DHM count as one tournament because players cannot double dip unless you count GSL as part of the DHM circuit.
You should not consider TSL5/6, King of Battles or StayatHomeStory Cup since they are not ESL events.
But that's the whole point of this thread about the other tournaments that you mentioned (the Season Finals) - that they could have allocated the prize money to those tournaments and it'll be fair (since the Koreans can compete there), but instead it's going only to the Regional tournaments, in which the Koreans can't compete.
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I dont event mind if ESL just put the money back into the recent IEM. Let Reynor has his mega-payday because he EARNED it. Thre is nothing wrong with EU players making more than KR if they winning. There is a big problem, however, if other regions are making money on the prize that was supposed to be EQUALLY shared by all players through competition.
And just dont bring up how this is to "save the SC2 scence", because it is a very bad agurment to make.Sacrifice on part of the population to help others is never a wise choice, unless its voluntary.
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EPT
