EPTWas Protoss given the same design focus? - Page 2
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Vitalik
1 Post
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12454 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On May 29 2023 00:39 Nebuchad wrote: No. The design of terran is really stupid and it's the core issue with the game. You shouldn't be able to force a tech up from the other side simply by building your core units. Brood War Terran: Sweats profusely Brood War Zerg: Sweats profusely against Protoss | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On May 29 2023 02:09 vOdToasT wrote: Brood War Terran: Sweats profusely Brood War Zerg: Sweats profusely against Protoss I'm really no expert on BW (but willing to learn), but aren't dragoons perfectly fine at least against non-stim BW bio? And IIRC zealots vs lings is perfectly fine too, it's mainly hydras that force a tech up and in return 1-2 hts with storm crush hydras. In Sc2 you need colossus with thermal lance or disruptors and you need a bunch of them cause else bio will just run over them. On the topic of the discussion I still think that it was a weird choice to decide that Protoss shouldn't have a backbone ranged unit that trades decently in most cases. According to Kim the dragoon was too good at too many things, but the stalker in return is kinda shit at almost all things. It's also a mind-boggling statement when the marine in it's current state made it. Although tbf one of the problems the devs had with the dragoon was that it didn't have a lot of micro potential which definitely isn't true for the marine. It's also pretty apparent that the devs didn't have a lot of interesting ideas for Protoss initially. Protoss new robo units in WoL are pretty boring to play and while the phoenix and the sentry offer more micro potential especially the latter also caused a lot of problems. HotS and LotV introduced more complex units and P is definitely more interesting to watch as a result. But when I look at terran where almost all units have their niche, timing, micro potential and unique quirk Protoss seems to have been the race that got a lot of medium-slow units that just can a-move and don't really pull their weight by themselves. | ||
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dysenterymd
1250 Posts
It's not that there isn't pressure on T and Z to transition, but it feels like their windows to transition are more generous. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On May 29 2023 01:24 Beelzebub1 wrote: No, definitely not initially, but over time those design flaws were imo marginalized, or at least covered up by a different unit/composition's strengths. Protoss seems pretty versatile in their strategic repertoire lately and it's been fun to watch. Oh yeah, so versatile that for the past 2+ years the only viable opening in PvZ is stargate (and no, adepts aren't a viable opening). | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
LotV Protoss feels they have lots of interesting/tricky builds and smart build orders you can go with. Back then, it was just like 1 or 2 base warpgate all-ins or rushes to a certain tech (DTs for example). But now with the economy differences + more abilities and more new units, and buffs to units like Warp Prism, it feels like Protoss has a wide arrange of strategies now. You may need to rely a bit on an element of surprise as Protoss with your tech, but I think that's totally fine and sets it apart from Terran (army production, micro'ing units) and Zerg (economy, massive macro). It creates a nice triangle with tech, army, economy. I feel like Zerg got much more fleshed out too now, if we look at Dark for example, he really shows how versatile the race is, and how you can "evolve" or keep switching your composition to adapt to the opponent, and he can come back as well with smart adaptations in the game and catch back up in economy. If we look at Protoss, players like sOs show how crazy and powerful Protoss builds and strategies can be. If we look at Terran, players like Maru show how resilient Terran can be and hold onto and claw back into games with high efficiency and micro. I feel all 3 races are quite fleshed out now, and Protoss and Zerg feel they definitely match how fleshed out Terran is now. Terran doesn't feel like it got much more fleshed out since WoL, just a little. It plays mostly the same still, the scope of what you can do doesn't feel too much wider or different. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Did you know that the Colossus can walk up and down cliffs, you guys? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26765 Posts
On May 29 2023 00:39 Nebuchad wrote: No. The design of terran is really stupid and it's the core issue with the game. You shouldn't be able to force a tech up from the other side simply by building your core units. These are all interlinked, but people continually point to Terran as the ‘well designed’ race. If your stock units pump out tons of damage and are far more microable than anything else in the game, how can that be mitigated? Well via the things people complain are bad design. Big, A-move friendly comps and AoE Protoss to some degree needed sentries in WoL, Mothership Core overcharge and shield batteries subsequently just to hold stock Terran bio-centric pushes. I don’t mind the idea of a ranged-centric kind of glass cannon faction. However, in SC2 things melt so fast when things scale that melee micro is pretty negligible. SC2 is pretty miraculously good considering some of the calls made way back for Wings. But future developers of RTS I hope steer clear of adopting, especially in making one race so asymmetric in micro demands/micro potential | ||
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Chemist391
United States366 Posts
If shield upgrades provided some kind of defense/mitigation of EMP, that could help, too. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On December 11 2020 06:03 dUTtrOACh wrote: You'll only get speculative responses on that here. Who else but the insiders at Blizzard who worked on the design aspect of each race would really know? How would you define "fair" (man hours or some other metric)? I feel like this is a joke. The designers thought the Colossus would be this amazing cliff walking harass unit to decimate enemy work lines... I'm sure they thought everything was just fine. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On May 29 2023 00:39 Nebuchad wrote: No. The design of terran is really stupid and it's the core issue with the game. You shouldn't be able to force a tech up from the other side simply by building your core units. No, and they don't. Stim, combat shields, concussive shells, +1+1, reactor medivacs, tanks and ravens are all tech. There were long stretches when Protoss could mass blink stalkers on 2 base and easily pick Terran defences apart. Fighting complete Triple-Splash-Toss Deathballs with bio is really hard too! | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On May 30 2023 11:37 BronzeKnee wrote: I feel like this is a joke. The designers thought the Colossus would be this amazing cliff walking harass unit to decimate enemy work lines... I'm sure they thought everything was just fine. I actually thought the idea of a ground unit which could be hit by air was really cool when I first saw it. The viking/colosseus dance can still be interresting, but it ended up a being a more boring unit than I hoped for. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12454 Posts
On May 30 2023 17:19 Slydie wrote: No, and they don't. Stim, combat shields, concussive shells, +1+1, reactor medivacs, tanks and ravens are all tech. There were long stretches when Protoss could mass blink stalkers on 2 base and easily pick Terran defences apart. Fighting complete Triple-Splash-Toss Deathballs with bio is really hard too! Blink is also tech according to your definition then Medivacs, tanks and ravens are tech, and sure you're going to get those because why wouldn't you. But you're not forced to get those unless there's tech on the other side. If I make a bunch of zealots and stalkers with upgrades and you make a bunch of marines and marauders with upgrade, you're going to win. I don't have an option but to counter what you're doing. The design of terran forces the protoss to make an active choice to counter the standard build-up of a terran army, and the terran can then scout that choice and react accordingly. I'm sure we've seen Serral play for long enough to know that the person reacting has an advantage in this game. And for a sidenote, fighting complete triple-splash toss deathballs with bio shouldn't be really hard, it should be 100% impossible. It is a sign that terran is badly designed that it is really hard. | ||
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Gattuzo
1 Post
On May 31 2023 01:08 Nebuchad wrote: Blink is also tech according to your definition then Medivacs, tanks and ravens are tech, and sure you're going to get those because why wouldn't you. But you're not forced to get those unless there's tech on the other side. If I make a bunch of zealots and stalkers with upgrades and you make a bunch of marines and marauders with upgrade, you're going to win. I don't have an option but to counter what you're doing. The design of terran forces the protoss to make an active choice to counter the standard build-up of a terran army, and the terran can then scout that choice and react accordingly. I'm sure we've seen Serral play for long enough to know that the person reacting has an advantage in this game. I recently came across a fantastic blog that focused on the top UX Design Agencies. It was a serendipitous find that opened up a world of possibilities for me. The blog featured in-depth reviews and case studies of various agencies, highlighting their expertise in creating exceptional user experiences. I was thrilled to discover a centralized resource that helped me understand the key players in the industry and their click here unique approaches to UX design. This blog has become an invaluable source of inspiration and knowledge as I navigate the field of user experience. And for a sidenote, fighting complete triple-splash toss deathballs with bio shouldn't be really hard, it should be 100% impossible. It is a sign that terran is badly designed that it is really hard. I agree, although the design here is actually the easiest. | ||
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Ireland Kelly
1 Post
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AssyrianKing
Australia2116 Posts
I am aware that both units now have special abilities or more micro potential. But Marines/Zerglings are better already due to better pathing in Starcraft 2. I personally think the base units should be a bit beefier and then to balance Protoss around those changes. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On July 23 2023 12:25 AssyrianKing wrote: One thing I always wondered was, the base units for Terran or Zerg have either similar strength or are a bit beefier, whereas for Protoss they have slightly less HP or Shields. I am aware that both units now have special abilities or more micro potential. But Marines/Zerglings are better already due to better pathing in Starcraft 2. I personally think the base units should be a bit beefier and then to balance Protoss around those changes. The goal of the race was always to make Protoss time and space manipulators. It turned out to be much harder to balance than expected, and a lot of abilities were too game breaking, like black hole/vortex, missile slow down field and even pylon warp-ins, which had to be heavily nerfed. I think the developers did necessarily give P less focus, but the whole concept of the race was much harder to get right when matched against the other two. Protoss still attracts players who enjoy a race with lots of trickery, the highest skillcap micro ability in the game, several devastating AOE options and massive air fleets. | ||
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