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On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere
But the games were played in a region that is a part of the OCE/SEA-region...
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On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere
Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that.
But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.
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Northern Ireland14572 Posts
On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that. But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse.
Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level.
The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be.
Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition.
A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods.
Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments.
So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania?
This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt.
Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.
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On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that. But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse. Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level. The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be. Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition. A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods. Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments. So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania? This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt. Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules.
Look, I totally agree with you.
Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question.
Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow.
GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports.
Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution.
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Northern Ireland14572 Posts
On October 15 2020 21:58 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that. But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse. Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level. The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be. Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition. A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods. Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments. So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania? This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt. Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules. Look, I totally agree with you. Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question. Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow. GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports. Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution.
Well the issue with Starcraft is the totality of the scene isn’t linked together basically ever, although that is sort of happening now.
I agree with you on the WESG examples mentioned. I feel those are examples of the spirit of regional competition being sidestepped for an easier path of competition. Which I feel is especially important in WCG/WESG style competitions. It’s a chance for the best players in specific countries to compete, as opposed to the best players in continents, and that integrity should be maintained.
I mean in relative terms Ireland sucks at Starcraft, we have a few decent GMs and ABomb beat Byong once. So for a WCG/WESG style tournament our local scene would want to send someone who plays in our local scene. If a decent pro, even a great guy like Harstem decided to represent Ireland for that tournament we’d be a bit pissed off.
We’re talking about examples spread over a long period, in a scene which has shifted structure a lot too.
The issue isn’t Stephano being Tunisian or HeroMarine being Italian, it’s that they did so for one tournament and then became French/German again.
So going back to the lack of a linked up scene. In say football, Wilifried Zaha plays for the Ivory Coast where he has family ties. Well that’s who he plays for now, he could probably have got in some England squads but he’s locked to his choice.
Whereas historically in SC it’s been possible to declare a certain nationality for one tournament, then another for another.
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On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere
In sports you play them in person. No lag in person lol
If he wants to take the server disadvantage every game maybe there can be a compromise.
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This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".
Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.
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On October 15 2020 22:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 21:58 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 21:19 WombaT wrote:On October 15 2020 20:09 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 19:11 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 19:08 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 18:53 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2020 18:47 followZeRoX wrote:
I am quite shocked with level of elitism of Europeans towards ANZ players.
So, basically, you are all okay with British player, who have better conditions to practice, to force ANZ players to play on certain server, and win just because hes mother has NZ passport. Madness. Buddy, if you arent good enough ti beat all on higher ping or actually live there and compete under same conditions as others, who cares if you quit.
Now we all should drop a tear over this.
It's kind of abuse of region policy.
For example Probe put a pretty good fight against Rogue im group stage. He wasnt bad. Anz should be represented by anz player, period.
So having a citizenship of NZ doesn't make you enough of a representation of A NZ? Who would have thought, I hope this stuff brings over to other sports. Edit> TBF Risky has more valid reason to play in ANZ than ANY foreigner in the Code S and ANY Korean in foreigner only events. One would thought that the citizenship is enough, but nooooo. If I understood correctly Risky can force anz players to play on equal ping servers. Its unfair. And about citizenship. How many times he has been in NZ? I hope we all get concept of representation here. I can get Czech passport and citizenship via grandmother. I have never been there but potentially i can represent CZ. How that can be normal? You do realize that this is happening in every sport? All you have to have is a passport and voila, you can represent another country! I agreewith the ping stuff. Should be played on the home region unless both players agree to play elsewhere Well ping stuff is main reason i Wrote all that. But also, because its happening in sports, doesent mean its right. Still, abuse is abuse. Identity is a complex thing, I’m unsure how big a connection Risky feels to New Zealand, never heard him talk about it but legally he’s got connections to that country. Which counts in al sorts of areas from visas through to representing nations at Olympic level. The ping issues weren’t exactly fair to force on Oceania players, so tweak the server rules there if needs be. Assuming I’m reading the proposed changes correctly we’re going from a situation with perceived unfairness (we could honestly just call this section of the structure the ‘Risky rule’), that is quite limited in scope, to one that is more unfair to more people and to the spirit of regional competition. A notable example being Kelazhur who is born and bred in Brazil, but who is studying in Europe being unable to participate in the Latin America region, unless he travels back for competition periods. Which isn’t a cheap journey, nor will tournaments necessarily line up with his academic commitments. So the end result of these changes appears to be that a huge part of the LAM scene for years is restricted from easily playing in that region, which isn’t the strongest field either, just so that a singular New Zealand citizen can’t play in Oceania? This in addition to Special and other Korean based players not having the same kind of restrictions, because competing in GSL is considered a tour commitment and is exempt. Ultimately we’re (IMO) ending up with a worse scenario as a solution to a singular individual course, and in a manner that doesn’t reflect all sorts of other real world scenarios as per citizenship rules. Look, I totally agree with you. Main problem here was server forcing. Why would anyone from LATAM or ANZ would be forced to play on worse ping then he could because someone is living outside of that region? That was my main question. Kelazhur shouldnt be restricted from LATAM region but if he wants to compete he should do it on Brazil server (or whatever they use). In that scenario he wouldnt win that easily and might be considering playing in EU. If COVID passed up to now he could fly to Brasil, or Risky could fly to NZ and compete in "LAN", I dont think anyone would even raise an eyebrow. GSL rules was always different. Personally, I am against region locking in any case but Risky rule is a bit different. He has no ties with NZ nor with community, thus far he cant be "best NZ has to offer". Imagine in year or two how this rule could be abused by others. Stephano used this to qualify as African representative in WESG, Gabe used this to play in Italian qualifier in same tournament. It's just unfair. This are not teams. I had same complaint in conventional sports. Also, we cant make rules to students who cannot travel for tournaments, but for those who go for progamer solution. Well the issue with Starcraft is the totality of the scene isn’t linked together basically ever, although that is sort of happening now. I agree with you on the WESG examples mentioned. I feel those are examples of the spirit of regional competition being sidestepped for an easier path of competition. Which I feel is especially important in WCG/WESG style competitions. It’s a chance for the best players in specific countries to compete, as opposed to the best players in continents, and that integrity should be maintained. I mean in relative terms Ireland sucks at Starcraft, we have a few decent GMs and ABomb beat Byong once. So for a WCG/WESG style tournament our local scene would want to send someone who plays in our local scene. If a decent pro, even a great guy like Harstem decided to represent Ireland for that tournament we’d be a bit pissed off. We’re talking about examples spread over a long period, in a scene which has shifted structure a lot too. The issue isn’t Stephano being Tunisian or HeroMarine being Italian, it’s that they did so for one tournament and then became French/German again. So going back to the lack of a linked up scene. In say football, Wilifried Zaha plays for the Ivory Coast where he has family ties. Well that’s who he plays for now, he could probably have got in some England squads but he’s locked to his choice. Whereas historically in SC it’s been possible to declare a certain nationality for one tournament, then another for another.
Itotally agree and you did change my mind a bit. And language barrier prevented me to explain better. Exactly what you said about shifting from one nationality to another is the problem I was writing about. If Risky declared himself as NZ and quit EU competition it would be fairest
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On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".
Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway.
You did read that esl is divided by regions right?
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On October 15 2020 23:20 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".
Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway. You did read that esl is divided by regions right?
Yep but the worst is I am forced to read your and others arguments like the connection to a country and other bs on why Risky shouldn't participe to the DH oc while having nz citizenship.
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My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.
If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.
Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.
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On October 15 2020 23:46 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 23:20 followZeRoX wrote:On October 15 2020 22:52 stilt wrote:
This conversation makes me uneasy. If Risky has nz citizenship then he has every rights of a nz citizen, I don't think a sc2 forum (or even internet) is a appropriate place to decide if people have to be deprieved of their citizen rights especially for stupid reasons like connections to the country.
Stephano was by far the best represent for Tunisia, actually people here generally likes when copatriot with double nationality chooses to represent them, at least in other sports. And I don't anyway get why Stephano can't be both especially considering sc2 is not institutionalized like other sports.
Some people like my gf are born outside the country, don't have french as their mothertongue and don't go to the country until there are around 12 but hopefully, they still have the same rights as me no matter what is their "connection".
Btw, participing to wcs is not exactly being a direct representative of its country, pretty obvious considering the lack of federation anyway. You did read that esl is divided by regions right? Yep but the worst is I am forced to read your and others arguments like the connection to a country and other bs on why Risky shouldn't participe to the DH oc while having nz citizenship.
No one say that he shouldnt play, but if he decide his region that should be it. And, he should play on their server.
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8358 Posts
if risky is representing NZ and the best server for NZ is AUS, then singapore is irrelevant. i don't get how that happened in the first place. seems like a misunderstanding about what a "region" is. just cuz we say that these qualifiers are broken up into "regions" and one of those "regions" is oceania doesn't necessarily mean that no other regions exist that would make sense to use for ping rules, ie NZ player vs NZ player should be played on AUS even if one of those NZ players is in the UK. this conflation of a qualifier "region" with physical regions of the world doesn't make sense when it comes to ping and server rules. use a little nuance...
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On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.
If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.
Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.
Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.
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The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).
I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.
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On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).
I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.
Kela not being allowed to play LatAm from EU would be surreal since with this ruleset it comes on top of Special being allowed to play LatAm from Korea so long as he qualifies for GSL.
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On October 16 2020 01:39 91matt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2020 23:53 Totoro1 wrote:
My understanding of the AU/NZ and Risky issue was that Australian players mostly complained they were forced to play on a disadvantageous server when playing against Risky. Their argument was that Risky, playing from Europe, actually had a ping advantage on the Singapore server compared to Australian players.
If I remember correctly, top Australian players didn't want to kick Risky out of the region, but since he participates as a NZ player, they were asking to play on the NZ/AUS server instead of the Singapore server.
Overall, the real problem in this region is not residency, it's that it's too big with too few players. Therefore, there are big ping issues when playing on Singapore vs. Australian servers.
Theres no way risky had a ping advantage in any of those games.
On October 16 2020 02:55 WardiTV wrote:
The rules used to be they had to play on AUS server and so Risky travelled and played from Korea to reduce ping. People still complained about him playing in the region. It was just louder this time and the yelling of "Ree singapore" stuck a little more (probably rightfully so).
I think the most interesting situation in all of this is that Kelazhur wouldn't be allowed to play LATAM, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Kela playing the LATAM region, but perhaps that's just because they have their own community etc which I don't hear from a lot. Would love to hear what they say.
The thing most people aren't realizing here wrt the singapore server isnt just that it's not aus. There's undersea cable damage between Aus and Singapore that causes Aus players to get inconsistent ping with massive spikes on a regular basis. Their ping can fluctuate between what would be expected, to spikes of several thousand ping. During these spikes, the Aus player is largely unable to do anything for a few seconds. The implications here if this would happen during a fight are pretty obvious.
The Aus players would not be complaining nearly as much as they were if this was not the case. There would probably be some complaints still, because Risky is in effect abusing the way the system works (I don't really blame him for this, he's allowed to do it), and that it is kind of stupid to have them play on a middle ground, but it wouldn't be nearly as severe.
Also, it's pretty disappointing to see people in this thread react to Aus players having any complaint about competitive integrity with "who cares, you're all bad, get good". Firstly, the Aus players are better than a lot of people are giving them credit for (the claim that none would be GM on NA is completely laughable, considering that most of the top players in Aus are 6k+ on KR), and secondly, even if it was true, how is that any way to respond to a complaint about integrity? Should maphackers in gold league not be banned? Sure, if those were Masters players, they'd win against a trash tier hacker, but they're not, and are still being cheated. Hacking is obviously much more extreme than anything happening with the Aus scene, but it's the same general principle.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House42907 Posts
Yeah not sure they are quite there with how it should be done but i do applaud and commend them actually listening and trying to do something. I hope they listen to some good ideas and advice here and what the likes of Wax are saying on social media too, so we can get the right outcome.
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wait so he was playing from Singapore on AUS server and it was affecting the players in AUS? That sounds like an issue in itself and if that's literally what the issue was than I have no problem with the rule change. You shouldn't be at a disadvantaged playing on your own server when you live there against someone playing from somewhere else. It's like when FIFA banned soccer stadiums from being too high above sea level. It's not so much that it's explicit cheating but it does create a problematic and in-equal situation. Assuming I'm not misunderstanding anything. Maybe the rule for all servers was to be fair and so it didn't look like he was being selectively punished? doesn't seem to work that way though. Sucks for Kelazhur and GSL stuff is weird but GSL has always been super super weird regarding this stuff. Will wait to see what other changes they announce, don't want to draw conclusions without seeing the whole picture.
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United States29231 Posts
doh, I guess I should behave on non TL.net social media 
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EPT
