I open SG almost every PvZ, and consequently have some experience chrono-ing out a voidray to help defend roach/ravager all-ins (and nydus all-ins). In those situations where you're cutting probes and cash-strapped, the reduced cost and build time is actually quite significant. The increased movement speed will also make them much easier to micro against ravager biles and to get to a burrowing nydus in time.

I wonder if similar logic might apply in PvT if the terran goes for a fast push to try to punish your flimsy SG opener. Maybe you survive a cyclone lock-on, or manage to snipe an extra unit or two without losing the void to marines? The tempest upgrade here will also reduce shots-to-kill on turrets, PFs, etc.

The exact numbers look like maybe too much, so we'll see how it shakes out. I'm cautiously optimistic. PvP is going to be nasty for a while, though. I'll take this opportunity to plug Harstem's recent anti-cannon-rush video to try to get more anti-cannon skill into the ecosystem.

Fango

United Kingdom8987 Posts

August 07 2020 02:35 GMT

#43

'we've received feedback that it has gone mostly unnoticed in all matchups'

I knew I couldn't have been the only one who noticed zero difference before and after the last baneling nerf, despite people saying it was going to flip ZvT. It was like when people panicked about the creep nerfs and then every game past 10 minutes still ended up being all purple.

BonitiilloO

Dominican Republic627 Posts

August 07 2020 03:24 GMT

#44

in what does the baneling change affect TvZ?

Riner1212

United States337 Posts

August 07 2020 03:27 GMT

#45

probably makes mech viable? if zerg goes ling, bane, muta

slant

Romania95 Posts

August 07 2020 03:28 GMT

#46

On August 07 2020 10:35 webhappy wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not a fan of this change. If you don't pay attention, a baneling may survive with 1 hp while you lose two banelings. If you pay attention and detonate manually, then you get the kill. This seems like a huge change. They might as well drop 1 hp from the banelings to keep zvz the same if they really want to nerf banelings.

I agree with you that this will encourage roach vs roach since utilizing banelings effectively will require a ton more apm

I personally am not a big fan of how the change would drastically impact zvz; I think it's in an amazing spot right now with tons of variation, macro potential, and cheese potential. The extra bane required could definitely tip the scale back into pure roach wars, and even that might be an overestimation and players would just go for ling floods.

Chocolate

United States2350 Posts

August 07 2020 03:52 GMT

#47

VR buffs could completely change PvP because it makes stalkers a less cost effective counter and theoretically makes it easier to spread vs archons

tigon_ridge

482 Posts

August 07 2020 04:13 GMT

#48

I don't know about the tempest upgrade. Seems too powerful against buildings, but I guess lategame PvZ is bad enough that it may be warranted. The VR buff is okay, but imo it's not the best approach for improving VR endgame viability. I get that the idea about a speed buff is that VR would only be stronger if your APM can keep up, similarly to mutalisks. However, mutas are never used in lategame PvZ, and VRs would be really hard to micro effectively, since protoss would have to constantly switch their attention between the main army and the VRs hit squad; unless they're together, which is a "fungal here" scenario.

I guess Bliz isn't going to give a chance to my +1 range research upgrade as substitute for flux vanes idea any time soon.

SamirDuran

Philippines895 Posts

August 07 2020 04:16 GMT

#49

On August 07 2020 12:24 BonitiilloO wrote:
in what does the baneling change affect TvZ?

may be mech comp? lot of players are still using mass blings against mech specially battle mech..

swarminfestor

Malaysia2449 Posts

August 07 2020 05:27 GMT

#50

Hmmm I didn't see a buff on the zerg unit like infestor. The microbial shroud seemed useless against enemy's powerful spell like storm and also unaffected even with the help of spore forests underneath. Of course, zerg pro-players will no longer use this spell other than to help hydras or queens, especially when battles against carriers/Bcs because neural parasite or abducts are much flexible to use.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

August 07 2020 05:43 GMT

#51

These things are fine. Go and test them. They're roughly in line with the power differences that might correct some matchup issues.

BisuDagger

Bisutopia19330 Posts

August 07 2020 05:44 GMT

#52

I thought the general problem with protoss air units is they generally just die way to fast in a PvZ to corruptors and parasitic bombs in the late game. This introduces void rays faster in numbers, but won't they still be easily countered in the late game?

To beat a dead horse, I wish adept PvZ all-ins was resolved. Somehow the adept needs to become a stronger mid-game unit instead of a harass only unit.

Kitai

United States880 Posts

August 07 2020 05:49 GMT

#53

On August 07 2020 13:16 SamirDuran wrote:

Show nested quote +

may be mech comp? lot of players are still using mass blings against mech specially battle mech..

It takes approximately 20% more banelings to kill anything that's not light and has 0 armor now, and every point of armor for non-light units is also more valuable against banelings than before. They'll still interact the same vs marines and mines, but even for bio terran the marauders and ghosts will be more resilient against them. Against mech, everything but hellions is harder to kill with banelings now.

-Kyo-

Japan1926 Posts

August 07 2020 05:49 GMT

#54

Might be time to come out of retirement and make more skytoss builds. Where is ret and tlo so I can get more famous YouTube casting time with husky, hdstarcraft and others... o wait everyone is gone and I'm an old man. only tlo lives on 😭😢

at least I can grief ladder at 5-6k.
o wait I am the person everyone here is talking about.... 😅

MockHamill

Sweden1798 Posts

August 07 2020 06:04 GMT

#55

The last thing this game needs is more cannon rushes into void ray/tempest.

This may not be a thing on pro level but on lower levels it is awful to play against.

The only working counter was reactor vikings. But now when you can not kite with vikings any more what should you do?

If this change goes through I think I will stay away from ladder for a long time.

Decendos

Germany1341 Posts

August 07 2020 06:06 GMT

#56

oh boy so they are basically ruining the game for masters and lower...it will be turtle toss into skytoss / HT everygame in PvZ and lots of voidray all ins in PvT.

Buffing voidray in some way is fine, they are underused but this? Especially Tempest buff is insane, Zerg cant fight lategame without spores vs skytoss + archon + HT. I am all for getting rid of spore walls but you have to buff lategame Zerg antiair then.

Harris1st

Germany7142 Posts

August 07 2020 06:22 GMT

#57

Like:

Oracle. Vision and detection always nice
Carrier. One neural could f up all army targeting
Tempest. This might be a shroud kinda upgrade
Void ray cost and build time decrease. Sometimes you need that emergency vray. Also maybe viable as an opener now instead of oracle.

Don't like:
Baneling nerf. Don't do this. Will affect TvZ and ZvZ very much
VRay speed. Don't do this. This will be so annoying. Faster than Corrupters and pretty much all ground units

EDIT: If it is all about fixing PvZ late game, do sth about Robo units. IMO give Coloss a second upgrade. HP, Shield, some sort of air armor? Like Immortal barrier but only vs air attacks. Or some cool laser focus beam that can target air? Similar to Ghost Snipe

elluel

62 Posts

August 07 2020 06:32 GMT

#58

why would you nerf banelings? it's the only thing that keeps zerg from losing to every fucking timing push in the game

EDIT: I'm a protoss main and this is what i think

Perfi2_0

Poland40 Posts

August 07 2020 07:17 GMT

#59

For what it's worth, I like these changes. Looking forward to testing them!

deacon.frost

Czech Republic12129 Posts

August 07 2020 07:52 GMT

#60

On August 07 2020 15:32 elluel wrote:
why would you nerf banelings? it's the only thing that keeps zerg from losing to every fucking timing push in the game

EDIT: I'm a protoss main and this is what i think

IMO Blizz wants to stop countering stalkers with banes. But what do i know