I ve created some videos showing how 9 workers can be efficient.
I remember good old day with 6 pool, Everyone do.. And despite the fact of increasing the number of workers was necessary, we all remember mythic Build Order as "First CC" or "Baneling Burst", which has completely disappear now.
Some of you remember well how Blizzard has converted us with "the pocket expand" (second expand without no entrance). Well, it was a substitute to future meta game, only focus on reach max limit workers then fight.
These days are now gone, truly gone... So to bring back nostalgy i ve done 4 video with 9 workers.. See below..
PS : sorry for speed and some camera movement, you could increase speed with Youtube.
+100 minerals at start +15 supply army from Command Center decreased +12 (Only Terrans know why this is Imba)
12 worker was not necessary, a lot of people got mad at blizzard because of it and left. The economy changes made to LOTV are some of the biggest culprits behind sc2 being on a downward slopem. On this very site we have the Eulogy to the 6-pool article which very clearly showcases why this economic model is worse than the one we had before.
I always felt like 12 was too much of an increase. I mean i'm still playing lots of BW and 4 workers was never really an issue, though I did prefer having 6 like in SC2 release. I think 9 would be a great middle ground!
On January 19 2020 03:12 sM.Zik wrote: I always felt like 12 was too much of an increase. I mean i'm still playing lots of BW and 4 workers was never really an issue, though I did prefer having 6 like in SC2 release. I think 9 would be a great middle ground!
The reason why 4 in BW was actually better was because BW got 32 minerals on the first trip while SC2 got 30 minerals on the first trip and from there each worker that came out would mine +3 minerals compared to SC2.
Start = 32-30 +1 workers = 40-35 +2 workers = 48-40 So on and so forth. So by the time you have +10 workers as an example, you are looking at 29 more minerals of income per entire rotation, over the course of however long the game is going. I think 8 workers might have worked fine, you start at 40 minerals and you have that 8 minerals advantage buffer that will be gone after roughly the first supply building is built.
Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
Funnily, if it's what the mod commented (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/321242-breadth-of-gameplay-in-sc2), then most of it got implemented in LotV. It came down to "Less resources per base" "Terrible Terrible Damage isn't good" and "Let the mapmakers be more creative with maps"
We got our 12 workers and less minerals per base, A lot of powerful spells or AOE units like fungal and colossus have been steadily nerfed, and we have had tons of rules lifted on map making.
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
Funnily, if it's what the mod commented (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/321242-breadth-of-gameplay-in-sc2), then most of it got implemented in LotV. It came down to "Less resources per base" "Terrible Terrible Damage isn't good" and "Let the mapmakers be more creative with maps"
We got our 12 workers and less minerals per base, A lot of powerful spells or AOE units like fungal and colossus have been steadily nerfed, and we have had tons of rules lifted on map making.
Don t you forget to say that you HAVE TO build 3 bases...
Anyway, there is always people which are unsatisfied no ?
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
Funnily, if it's what the mod commented (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/321242-breadth-of-gameplay-in-sc2), then most of it got implemented in LotV. It came down to "Less resources per base" "Terrible Terrible Damage isn't good" and "Let the mapmakers be more creative with maps"
We got our 12 workers and less minerals per base, A lot of powerful spells or AOE units like fungal and colossus have been steadily nerfed, and we have had tons of rules lifted on map making.
Don t you forget to say that you HAVE TO build 3 bases...
Anyway, there is always people which are unsatisfied no ?
I think having to build 3 bases in most cases is a good thing because it promotes action on the map. The natural expansion is too easy to defend which encourages a lot of turtle play styles and all-ins. Thanks to the fact that bases mine out faster in LotV, players are forced to establish more forward positions on the map and play a strategy game instead.
On January 19 2020 07:47 FataLe wrote: Didn't we have like a huge thread about someone/a group that made an alternate economic system with loads of information and results that people liked and blizz just went nah, we have our own idea.
Funnily, if it's what the mod commented (https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/321242-breadth-of-gameplay-in-sc2), then most of it got implemented in LotV. It came down to "Less resources per base" "Terrible Terrible Damage isn't good" and "Let the mapmakers be more creative with maps"
We got our 12 workers and less minerals per base, A lot of powerful spells or AOE units like fungal and colossus have been steadily nerfed, and we have had tons of rules lifted on map making.
Don t you forget to say that you HAVE TO build 3 bases...
Anyway, there is always people which are unsatisfied no ?
I think having to build 3 bases in most cases is a good thing because it promotes action on the map. The natural expansion is too easy to defend which encourages a lot of turtle play styles and all-ins. Thanks to the fact that bases mine out faster in LotV, players are forced to establish more forward positions on the map and play a strategy game instead.
No, it promotes defense play style cause Pro players are enhanced to optimize and develop their macro (also reach gap workers count) since they could be slow down by "none efficient trade" and a loss of APM (with mico management).
You can t critizice against map specificities, this is not revealant.
Also, Even if SC2 get workers which harverst +38% faster than in BW (see link above), this doesn t matter since the game has better ergonomic features (oiled mechanics, pathfinding, groups, etc..). The problem remains but less stronger and also targeted on ze Terran race of "Build Order", which is mostly impacted by this economy change...
Then, some changes could be done to increase queen injection to 3 larva in 29 seconds to 4 larva in 38 seconds.
On January 19 2020 03:12 sM.Zik wrote: I always felt like 12 was too much of an increase. I mean i'm still playing lots of BW and 4 workers was never really an issue, though I did prefer having 6 like in SC2 release. I think 9 would be a great middle ground!
After released these videos, i was fully satisfied. Timing between buildings were great, all things were perfectly made to have similar build compared to 6 workers.. With Fast build "banshee or Stim Drop", i forgot to send a vcs.. then perhaps these builds aren t so perfectly snapped into place and required a little bit adjustements.
VIDEO FAST BUNKER (PRE REQUIREMENT : ENGINERRING BAY)
Terrans can build a BC in 64 seconds but they need 40 seconds to build a bunker (here : 20 seconds with Eng Bay) ?
Hmm I still have mixed feelings about the change, I am a little sad that it limited some of the openings you could go for but at the same time it feels so good to immediately get into the game
fewer workers is just more 1 base cheese and more time spent watching nothing happen. i can't even watch HOTS games anymore because of how slow the start is
the one thing i find dumb about the fast mineral start is cannon rushes. in Hots if you knew cannons were coming and pre pulled to block then you basically won the game, but now the cannon player can afford to make like 4-5 buildings at once, so they can still do stupid simcity tricks to force a bunch of counter micro
On January 19 2020 19:39 SC-Shield wrote: Yeah, why not reduce workers so we could have cheese back? Proxies were so much fun to deal with than a macro game... not really.
So then start everyone with 2 base then. if nothing can threaten you in the early game then just remove it.
On January 19 2020 19:39 SC-Shield wrote: Yeah, why not reduce workers so we could have cheese back? Proxies were so much fun to deal with than a macro game... not really.
So then start everyone with 2 base then. if nothing can threaten you in the early game then just remove it.
that's pretty much what we already have though. everyone almost always expands and survives. it's better that way
you can still do aggro builds, they're just less all-in and you don't automatically lose without scouting them because of higher income and worker pulls. 10 worker cheeses like in-base proxy gate were funny, but stupid as fuck
pvp was affected the worst by the new economy. cannon rushes are more complicated, and having to block adepts with pylons is a terrible and unnecessary skill check
12 workers and mineral patches reduction were main reasons why I quit SC2 forever. Revert to WoL/HotS era eco and maybe I'll consider trying this game again.
On January 22 2020 11:32 outscar wrote: 12 workers and mineral patches reduction were main reasons why I quit SC2 forever. Revert to WoL/HotS era eco and maybe I'll consider trying this game again.
Same reason I quit as well, not that anyone cares. At this point it will never be reverted and there are plenty of people out there that prefer the 12 worker start. Personally I think it was bad for the game.
EPT
