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GalacticFox
15 Posts
On September 21 2019 00:11 Nakajin wrote: All Life-Maru and Serral in front of INno is crazy I put Life ahead of Inno because Life was more dominant in his prime. Inno has won 4-5 major tournaments in the past 2 years so he's been racking up trophies for quite some time now. Serral should also be ahead since he's last year's world champion, which is the most prestigious title any starcraft 2 player can receive. | ||
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Majick
416 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On September 21 2019 00:34 GalacticFox wrote: I put Life ahead of Inno because Life was more dominant in his prime. Inno has won 4-5 major tournaments in the past 2 years so he's been racking up trophies for quite some time now. Serral should also be ahead since he's last year's world champion, which is the most prestigious title any starcraft 2 player can receive. I think INno was/is way more dominant than Life when he is in his on point. The big critizism you can make at INno is that he's less clutch than Life was, but he had multiple year when his matchup win rate push the 80% mark (or even 90% if you take match winrate). Also that Serral argument make no sense at all? I mean I could get behind a Serral goat argument (well actually no but at least there's a strong argument to be made) but "because he's the world champ" make no sense. sOs has 2 Blizzcon, MMA technically has a Blizzcon trophy even if it was a GSL one as well as a silver + a Blizzard cup witch was the actual world championship that year, Life of course has a trophy and a silver (+ a Blizzard cup) even fucking ByuN was a Blizzcon champ at some point. | ||
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Sombre
United Kingdom86 Posts
On September 20 2019 05:31 Chris_Havoc wrote: I propose instead of the term GOAT "Greatest of All-Time" we use GOVRT "Greatest of Various Random Times"  No one can ever truly be called "the best" in StarCraft 2 because greatness in SC2 is merely a temporary existence. You could easily have 4-5 players tied at #1 in the Power Rankings and it would still make sense because the skill levels between them is minute and often arbitary. Do you mean in regards to like, how in Wings, at any one time, the best player in the world could have equally been MC/MVP/Nestea, but the players that followed them, like Inno/Classic/Stats to pick a random 3 are the best in THEIR ERA? It sounds like the old Bonjwa system, what you're proposing | ||
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
Mvp kinda is like Boxer. He dominated in the early years of his game. With SC2 being changed A LOT during its existence, it's also really hard to compare games of 2019 with those of 2011. Serral, Maru and Stats are the best players of their races right now, but what's the point in choosing one over another. It's like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. | ||
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Sombre
United Kingdom86 Posts
On September 21 2019 01:49 virpi wrote: Mvp kinda is like Boxer. He dominated in the early years of his game. With SC2 being changed A LOT during its existence, it's also really hard to compare games of 2019 with those of 2011. Serral, Maru and Stats are the best players of their races right now, but what's the point in choosing one over another. It's like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. Haven't Tastosis compared Wings champions to Platinum players nowadays? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 21 2019 01:17 Nakajin wrote: I think INno was/is way more dominant than Life when he is in his on point. The big critizism you can make at INno is that he's less clutch than Life was, but he had multiple year when his matchup win rate push the 80% mark (or even 90% if you take match winrate). The big criticism of INno is that only won when terran was (to some extent) imba. He's the perfect patch terran. I don't think INno was ever the sole terran in a ro8 until this year (?) and he has never won a tournament where terran was underperforming (as far as I remember). And in terms of absolute peak it's not even close. Life's run of winning blizzcon, GSL, IEM, while making ro4 of SSL, and finals of dreamhack is much better than INno's one tournament a year for like 5 years. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 21 2019 01:51 Sombre wrote: Haven't Tastosis compared Wings champions to Platinum players nowadays? People compare early WoL champions to gold league players. Honestly I'd say the early champs were at least (modern) masters in terms of mechanics. Obviously not in terms of strategy. | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
On September 21 2019 01:49 virpi wrote: Mvp kinda is like Boxer. He dominated in the early years of his game. With SC2 being changed A LOT during its existence, it's also really hard to compare games of 2019 with those of 2011. Serral, Maru and Stats are the best players of their races right now, but what's the point in choosing one over another. It's like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. Bearing mind it was the beginning of the KESPA era of SC2 but in the first few seasons of 2013 Mvp was extremely competitive, particularly in a narrow loss to INno in the WCS Season 1 finals. IM also won a team league the same year. Overall, he had a solid 2.5-3 years. It was the beginning of the end though; he had some pretty ignominius results in 2014 with losses to a strong uThermal and MorroW. On September 21 2019 01:53 Fango wrote: People compare early WoL champions to gold league players. Honestly I'd say the early champs were at least (modern) masters in terms of mechanics. Obviously not in terms of strategy. From early 2010 and early 2011 I am inclined to agree (gold league comment). In late 2011 I think there were major improvements in both Koreans and foreigners. You also have to take into account things like how meh the map lists were, no worker counts shown, no auto mining, siege mode research, slow medivacs/no boost, slow and non healing reapers - plus more (sorry for the Terran bias). It took a while for SC2 to grow into it's own entity from how it was released. Such is my opinion  . | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 21 2019 01:53 Fango wrote: People compare early WoL champions to gold league players. Honestly I'd say the early champs were at least (modern) masters in terms of mechanics. Obviously not in terms of strategy. Stuff just wasn’t figured out as you say. Part of MVP’s strong GOAT claim to me is also how much of modern Terran standards he implemented or perfected. So in that sense I do quite like the Boxer comparison. 9 years of a scene’s RTS knowledge is an insane amount. It really cannot be overstated, hell some stuff is still new to foreign players in BW after the information and translations we started getting in the streaming era. Mechanics and macro definitely overlap, they are different things to me anyway. The former is how efficiently you use your mouse and keyboard to input things, macro you still need some knowledge, optimal workers, expansion timings and when is safe what compositions are good, upgrade timings, how much production to add and when to do it etc, then your macro/multitask cycles themselves and how well you do it. That was still being figured out to even something vaguely resembling modern play for quite some time. On a purely mechanical level the average ladder player is a lot better now for sure, I still think they’d lag far far behind an Mvp or an MC of that era, or folks who’d played Brood War to any serious degree. Some players of that era might be comparable to today’s masters player though for sure | ||
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Sombre
United Kingdom86 Posts
On September 21 2019 02:14 DSK wrote: Bearing mind it was the beginning of the KESPA era of SC2 but in the first few seasons of 2013 Mvp was extremely competitive, particularly in a narrow loss to INno in the WCS Season 1 finals. IM also won a team league the same year. Overall, he had a solid 2.5-3 years. It was the beginning of the end though; he had some pretty ignominius results in 2014 with losses to a strong uThermal and MorroW. From early 2010 and early 2011 I am inclined to agree (gold league comment). In late 2011 I think there were major improvements in both Koreans and foreigners. You also have to take into account things like how meh the map lists were, no worker counts shown, no auto mining, siege mode research, slow medivacs/no boost, slow and non healing reapers - plus more (sorry for the Terran bias). It took a while for SC2 to grow into it's own entity from how it was released. Such is my opinion .You mean you didn't like Scrap Station and Lost Temple? | ||
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Carminedust
487 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33711 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On September 21 2019 03:00 Waxangel wrote: Was this post just a honeypot to ban posters who post before reading? Find out, next I read it but saddly I didn't find any tips on how to win Internet point so I went back to the tride and true method of writing long ass post about Maru, Serral and INno to answer other long ass post I didn't read. I'm winning the debate of course. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On September 21 2019 00:34 GalacticFox wrote: I put Life ahead of Inno because Life was more dominant in his prime. Inno has won 4-5 major tournaments in the past 2 years so he's been racking up trophies for quite some time now. Serral should also be ahead since he's last year's world champion, which is the most prestigious title any starcraft 2 player can receive. Surely by this logic sOs is the GOAT. /s | ||
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Regisko
Ukraine20 Posts
Top 5: 1. Life 2. Innovation 3. Maru 4. soO 5. $o$ One more blizzcon can get Serral 5th. One more year of domination will get him top-3. For me it's not only about skill (you can have dozens of different calculation approaches), but also charisma. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On September 21 2019 05:30 Regisko wrote: Life > Serral Top 5: 1. Life 2. Innovation 3. Maru 4. soO 5. $o$ One more blizzcon can get Serral 5th. One more year of domination will get him top-3. For me it's not only about skill (you can have dozens of different calculation approaches), but also charisma. Then MC is Top 1 | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
This. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
2. Maru 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. Stats 8. soO 9. Classic 10. herO 11. Rain 12. Dark 13. MMA 14. MC 15. TaeJa 16. Polt 17. Rogue 18. Serral 19. NesTea 20. PartinG | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 21 2019 08:19 Charoisaur wrote: 1. INnoVation 2. Maru 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. Stats 8. soO 9. Classic 10. herO 11. Rain 12. Dark 13. MMA 14. MC 15. TaeJa 16. Polt 17. Rogue 18. Serral 19. NesTea 20. PartinG Serral at 18 cant see this having any kind of blowback | ||
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