Protoss' GSL dominance continued in the Code S RO16, as Trap and herO advanced from Group C, while PartinG and soO advanced from Group B to lock in five Protoss players in the quarterfinals. Depending on the results of the remaining Group D (Dark, Patience, INnoVation, Stats), Code S may follow in the steps of the Super Tournament where 7/8 quarterfinal spots were taken by Protoss.
Special played some great games and has been a blast to watch this season.
Despite all the protoss, the person who looked the worst was soO who either cheesed or caught the cheese to win his games. It's hard to tell if he just wasn't comfortable with his opponents or if the state of balance has forced him to play this way.
So in the Ro8, Protoss will range from almost doubling the combined Zerg/Terran players to outnumbering them sevenfold. This new era of Protoss needs some catchy name, like GomTvT or BL/Infestor. PvPlayoffs? Global Protoss League? I'm sure somebody can come up with a suitably witty name.
Come to think of it, I like PvPlayoffs. A lot of the complaints are coming from Ro8 representation.
soO's chances don't look great, especially with Classic currently being considered the top Protoss in Korea, and a field of very capable Immortal/Prism users in Trap and Parting.
Hopefully Parting keeps it interesting when there are only Protoss remaining.
As primarily a lurker, the crying about Protoss is getting unbearable. Almost like people actually believe the race a person plays determines whether they should win or lose.
On May 30 2019 08:41 Amarillo Caballero wrote: As primarily a lurker, the crying about Protoss is getting unbearable. Almost like people actually believe the race a person plays determines whether they should win or lose.
Easier to blame the race rather than own individual skills, etc. Unfortunately that's how society is right now. Bunch of snowflakes saying things to fix their agenda and bias
I'm peacing out
In before the protoss hater army comes and does their predictable whining and crying
On May 30 2019 08:01 pvsnp wrote: So in the Ro8, Protoss will range from almost doubling the combined Zerg/Terran players to outnumbering them sevenfold.
But Maru and Serral got a lot of trophies last year. This is fine.
Ah ye, Protoss won everything in 2019...oh right, they didn't! Their timing pushes need to be nerfed and there are too many of them in GSL recently but it would be good to quit whining, Protoss won Super Tournament last year as well.
On May 30 2019 08:01 pvsnp wrote: So in the Ro8, Protoss will range from almost doubling the combined Zerg/Terran players to outnumbering them sevenfold. This era of Protoss needs some catchy name, like GomTvT or BL/Infestor.
But Maru and Serral got a lot of trophies last year. This is fine.
On May 30 2019 08:01 pvsnp wrote: So in the Ro8, Protoss will range from almost doubling the combined Zerg/Terran players to outnumbering them sevenfold. This era of Protoss needs some catchy name, like GomTvT or BL/Infestor.
But Maru and Serral got a lot of trophies last year. This is fine.
I liked the name GOMeXPvP for the blink era.
I'm liking PvPlayoffs, since a lot of the complaints are coming from Ro8 representation.
I absolutely have loved the Tastosis casting team over the years, but their casting bias is a bit much at times. They're at their best when they aren't casting Protoss and this season has made me recognize that more than ever.
Special vs herO game one was particularly bad. Special was playing out of his mind and they didn't have much credit to give him. When he destroyed 20 probes, they didn't say a single thing about it. Storms were apparently beautiful, while Special's quickfire splits in response weren't too noteworthy.
Special was ahead most of the game and they acted completely surprised when he won. People complain about balance whine, but the multiple comments they made about Mules is the definition of balance whine. To paraphrase: "How is he still ahead? He took some disruptor shots!" "Oh, yeah, mules."
Meanwhile, they couldn't help but gush over hero. Come on.
sckrew it Stats and patience better take the next group lets it so soO is our only saving hope of preventing a protoss victory and then and only then will soO win a GSL when he just has to kill protoss no matter how weak he looks against them
We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
Well damn, and here I was thinking Classic had already won a bunch of stuff. But I guess since he's so 'overrated' why not create a meta that would hand him another trophy, we wouldn't want some other poor sap who's not overrated to win, right?
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
You get no 'protoss hate' from me, I've played random since SC1. I've been making fun of the 'terran whining superpower' for years, I just don't have 'toss-colored glasses to see the game through
To me this seems worse than the BL/Infestor era, at least the zergs back then had to get to the late game to exploit the patch, these days the toss myriad of all-ins are a lot harder to counter.
On May 30 2019 08:23 contv wrote: soO's chances don't look great, especially with Classic currently being considered the top Protoss in Korea, and a field of very capable Immortal/Prism users in Trap and Parting.
Hopefully Parting keeps it interesting when there are only Protoss remaining.
I'd rather see soO facing the toughest ones before the final. Since he is secured for the BlizzCon, he is not desperate for scores. Instead, seeing him defeated in early stage is far better than seeing him losing 7th GSL final.
Furthermore, historically soO has a MUCH MUCH GREATER chance taking down those big names in RO16/RO8/RO4.
On May 30 2019 13:40 machinus wrote: Definitely one of the more boring seasons of GSL. Maru's dominance was just hiding the problem
The problem of terrans being bad? I guess that's it, because the problem of terrans being whiny was not ever hidden. Especially those "10 posts terrans", you know? Half of them are avilo's smurfs though but still.
In the last GSL Super Tournament, there were 7 of 8 Protoss players in the Round of 8. Never in the history of SC2 or even BW, for a premier Korean tournament, were there 7 players of the same race in the Round of 8. And BW tournaments in Korea for pro gamers go back to 1999 so that's 20 years of Korean pro tournaments.
This will be another moment in history if 7 Protoss players qualifies for the Round of 8. It would make two consecutive Korean premier tournaments where 7 Protoss have made the Round of 8.
Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
On May 30 2019 13:40 machinus wrote: Definitely one of the more boring seasons of GSL. Maru's dominance was just hiding the problem
The problem of terrans being bad? I guess that's it, because the problem of terrans being whiny was not ever hidden. Especially those "10 posts terrans", you know? Half of them are avilo's smurfs though but still.
Terran has major problems as a race. Sounds like you don't know much about SC2
On May 30 2019 13:40 machinus wrote: Definitely one of the more boring seasons of GSL. Maru's dominance was just hiding the problem
The problem of terrans being bad? I guess that's it, because the problem of terrans being whiny was not ever hidden. Especially those "10 posts terrans", you know? Half of them are avilo's smurfs though but still.
Terran has major problems as a race. Sounds like you don't know much about SC2
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
You can't really use IEM to point to protoss imbalance specifically when most of the top tier terrans were knocked out by Zergs and there was equal representation between Zerg and Protoss from the quarterfinals all the way up to the finals and protoss didn't even win said finals.
Well, I'm almost always a fan of "let's wait how this develops" in balance questions. But at some point one has to admit due to mere statistics that Protoss probably is somewhat favored. I'm not actively playing right now, so I'm not able to pinpoint where the exact problem is but waiting another GSL/WCS Season is probably too much.
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
You can't really use IEM to point to protoss imbalance specifically when most of the top tier terrans were knocked out by Zergs and there was equal representation between Zerg and Protoss from the quarterfinals all the way up to the finals and protoss didn't even win said finals.
But I'm not pointing out Protoss imbalance What I'm saying is - Terran is in a bad place global-wise(IEM, ST, Code S). Zerg is in a bad state in Korea(ST, Code S). Because I don't know if the issue is in the Protoss(e.g. the most cited "op" thing - warp prism pick up range - how does this affect PvT?). IMO the issue is more complicated than "nurf Protoss, Protoss OP" And I don't see the solution(especially for PvT)
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
You can always ignore him and don't reply to his post
On May 30 2019 13:40 machinus wrote: Definitely one of the more boring seasons of GSL. Maru's dominance was just hiding the problem
The problem of terrans being bad? I guess that's it, because the problem of terrans being whiny was not ever hidden. Especially those "10 posts terrans", you know? Half of them are avilo's smurfs though but still.
Terran has major problems as a race. Sounds like you don't know much about SC2
Personally (diamond) I’m feeling ok right now in the game, but it does get somewhat disconcerting that I feel limited in my strategies as a Terran player—especially when I approach the later game.
Always seems like there are 10 million ways to die vP in the first 10 minutes, and even if I’m getting drones vZ, Mech still seems so flimsy at a certain point. I know I’m not beyond my own mistakes causing me to lose, but it seems like the mistakes my opponents (of other races) make always have less of overall effect.
The thing is Protoss just recently got a decent nerf across all matchups, including the Air Upgrades (which have never been a problem at any time).
Instead of reducing Protoss strength, it seems to have had minimal effect.
Why? I think it's because Protoss players are better.
Before you rush to downvote and flame, I'm not talking about mechanics, macro, micro, mini-map awareness, etc. I'm talking about the capacity to generate new and innovative builds as a community.
I feel lucky to have picked a race that happens to be played by guys like sOs, MC, Day9, Parting, Artosis, Petit Drogo, Trap and even an unknown like Max Pax (and so many others I've left out). They aren't whiners, but rather, they all have made massive creative contributions to how Protoss is played at one time or another. Then there's guys like Gemini, distilling and distributing that knowledge to us lower league types.
Can Terran and Zerg players say the same about their community leaders? I'm not so sure. And without the KESPA system, the meta is more volatile than I've ever seen, so having that community helping to solve problems is more important than ever before.
Anyway, I think Protoss will be nerfed at some point. But we've just seen how nerfing Toss can just make them stronger. That only makes sense if there is some other factor at play - which could be something like the types of communities each respective race have cultivated.
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
You can't really use IEM to point to protoss imbalance specifically when most of the top tier terrans were knocked out by Zergs and there was equal representation between Zerg and Protoss from the quarterfinals all the way up to the finals and protoss didn't even win said finals.
But I'm not pointing out Protoss imbalance What I'm saying is - Terran is in a bad place global-wise(IEM, ST, Code S). Zerg is in a bad state in Korea(ST, Code S). Because I don't know if the issue is in the Protoss(e.g. the most cited "op" thing - warp prism pick up range - how does this affect PvT?). IMO the issue is more complicated than "nurf Protoss, Protoss OP" And I don't see the solution(especially for PvT)
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
You can always ignore him and don't reply to his post
PvT is chrono + late superior late game splash (upgrades + better tech = gg better all in) For this one you can't just nerf/buff in isolation - more difficult to solve.
PvZ it's clearly the warp prism immortal juggling - needs to go. Marjory timing also needs to be messed with.
On May 30 2019 21:14 the caz dog wrote: The thing is Protoss just recently got a decent nerf across all matchups, including the Air Upgrades (which have never been a problem at any time).
Instead of reducing Protoss strength, it seems to have had minimal effect.
Why? I think it's because Protoss players are better.
Before you rush to downvote and flame, I'm not talking about mechanics, macro, micro, mini-map awareness, etc. I'm talking about the capacity to generate new and innovative builds as a community.
I feel lucky to have picked a race that happens to be played by guys like sOs, MC, Day9, Parting, Artosis, Petit Drogo, Trap and even an unknown like Max Pax (and so many others I've left out). They aren't whiners, but rather, they all have made massive creative contributions to how Protoss is played at one time or another. Then there's guys like Gemini, distilling and distributing that knowledge to us lower league types.
Can Terran and Zerg players say the same about their community leaders? I'm not so sure. And without the KESPA system, the meta is more volatile than I've ever seen, so having that community helping to solve problems is more important than ever before.
Anyway, I think Protoss will be nerfed at some point. But we've just seen how nerfing Toss can just make them stronger. That only makes sense if there is some other factor at play - which could be something like the types of communities each respective race have cultivated.
On May 30 2019 20:41 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, I'm almost always a fan of "let's wait how this develops" in balance questions. But at some point one has to admit due to mere statistics that Protoss probably is somewhat favored.
I like how you tried to put it intelligently with "let it settle" stuff and then followed it with "buuuuut, you know, there is statistics". Nice try. Too bad there is no "statistics". Unless it includes 4 gsl terran titles in a row for korea and undeniable zerg dominance in eu for last couple of years. The only statistics worth mentioning here is the average mmr of terrans, who constantly whine about.. everything, i guess?
On May 30 2019 20:41 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, I'm almost always a fan of "let's wait how this develops" in balance questions. But at some point one has to admit due to mere statistics that Protoss probably is somewhat favored.
I like how you tried to put it intelligently with "let it settle" stuff and then followed it with "buuuuut, you know, there is statistics". Nice try. Too bad there is no "statistics". Unless it includes 4 gsl terran titles in a row for korea and undiniable zerg dominance in eu for last couple of years. The only statistics worth mentioning here is the average mmr of terrans, who constantly whine about.. everything, i guess?
Another imbecile stuck on 1 player winning GSL lmao.
Race representation has been P heavy for 1.5 years - it's now at a ridiculous level - you can't hide anymore lmao.
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
You can't really use IEM to point to protoss imbalance specifically when most of the top tier terrans were knocked out by Zergs and there was equal representation between Zerg and Protoss from the quarterfinals all the way up to the finals and protoss didn't even win said finals.
But I'm not pointing out Protoss imbalance What I'm saying is - Terran is in a bad place global-wise(IEM, ST, Code S). Zerg is in a bad state in Korea(ST, Code S). Because I don't know if the issue is in the Protoss(e.g. the most cited "op" thing - warp prism pick up range - how does this affect PvT?). IMO the issue is more complicated than "nurf Protoss, Protoss OP" And I don't see the solution(especially for PvT)
On May 30 2019 20:43 DomeGetta wrote:
On May 30 2019 11:09 Xain0n wrote:
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
You can always ignore him and don't reply to his post
PvT is chrono + late superior late game splash (upgrades + better tech = gg better all in) For this one you can't just nerf/buff in isolation - more difficult to solve.
PvZ it's clearly the warp prism immortal juggling - needs to go. Marjory timing also needs to be messed with.
Chrono changes would break PvZ. That's why I want to see a change to Terrans rather than to Protoss.
On May 30 2019 20:41 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, I'm almost always a fan of "let's wait how this develops" in balance questions. But at some point one has to admit due to mere statistics that Protoss probably is somewhat favored.
I like how you tried to put it intelligently with "let it settle" stuff and then followed it with "buuuuut, you know, there is statistics". Nice try. Too bad there is no "statistics". Unless it includes 4 gsl terran titles in a row for korea and undiniable zerg dominance in eu for last couple of years. The only statistics worth mentioning here is the average mmr of terrans, who constantly whine about.. everything, i guess?
The last time I saw this type of argumentation was when Zerg was dominating everything with BL infestor but Mvp won some tournaments so everything was fine and the imbalance wasn't there.
C'mon, we have heavy Protoss representation in several tournaments in a row, low Terran representation in several tournaments in a row, kinda low for Zergs too. And we're talking about tournaments with the best players possible.
On May 30 2019 16:06 Veluvian wrote: Classic is on top. Hurricane defended perfectly against the early zergling rush of Ragnarok. Parting showed us some incredible new strats despite his controversial talking all the time. Those are pure individual successes, no patches victories. Sorry, but It has been more than two years of terrans winning Code S. If it's not for Classic, I will be extremely happy for Dark to take it all finally. To be honest in lower ladder leagues is bit of different of races balance and the way some pro-s dominate in the scene right now is only in top tier matches. This is an evolution I guess. We used to watch WhiteRa special tactics in WoL era with warp prisms but now pro-s use it like pure magic perfect immortal blink like nobody dared to dream before.
Nobody is against Protoss winning the thing, but after the IEM, GSL ST and this Code S it really doesn't look like the game is in the healthiest stage. Terrans nowehere to be found + Zergs suffering in Korea. This can't be a coincidence tha we just broke the GomTvT record of player balance in the RO8.
It's similar to the BL Infestor thing, Mvp was winning, Terrans were fine (Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
You can't really use IEM to point to protoss imbalance specifically when most of the top tier terrans were knocked out by Zergs and there was equal representation between Zerg and Protoss from the quarterfinals all the way up to the finals and protoss didn't even win said finals.
But I'm not pointing out Protoss imbalance What I'm saying is - Terran is in a bad place global-wise(IEM, ST, Code S). Zerg is in a bad state in Korea(ST, Code S). Because I don't know if the issue is in the Protoss(e.g. the most cited "op" thing - warp prism pick up range - how does this affect PvT?). IMO the issue is more complicated than "nurf Protoss, Protoss OP" And I don't see the solution(especially for PvT)
On May 30 2019 20:43 DomeGetta wrote:
On May 30 2019 11:09 Xain0n wrote:
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
You can always ignore him and don't reply to his post
PvT is chrono + late superior late game splash (upgrades + better tech = gg better all in) For this one you can't just nerf/buff in isolation - more difficult to solve.
PvZ it's clearly the warp prism immortal juggling - needs to go. Marjory timing also needs to be messed with.
I would say the main problem with chrono is the ability to rush out upgrades and that affects both match ups. It's part of the reason timings are so prevalent in PvZ as the Protoss can get an upgrade lead early on and exploit that. Even a minor nerf would significantly offset this while also meaning that the Protoss economy doesn't get too far ahead of the Terran's which it has a propensity to do at the moment.
I don't think you can nerf the splash of protoss without severely affecting PvZ and so perhaps I would say a buff to Terran would be more useful here. Maybe a unit like the liberator which doesn't see quite as much play in TvZ as far as I'm aware or perhaps a ghost buff which makes it more able to counter the likes of HT.
Maybe rather than nerfing warp prism range, making the warp prism cost perhaps additional gas so that it takes longer to get out and by extension takes immortals longer to get out. This would severely nerf the timing attacks of protoss as, combined with the chrono nerf would make it so that the protoss attack hit later and with less immortals, giving zerg more time to counter it.
However, in response to that you would absolutely need to buff protoss late game. Either through reverting the carrier or buffing the tempest a bit so that skytoss is a somewhat viable composition again. This would give Protoss an incentive to go into the late game rather than the timing attacks they are doing now.
On May 30 2019 20:41 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, I'm almost always a fan of "let's wait how this develops" in balance questions. But at some point one has to admit due to mere statistics that Protoss probably is somewhat favored.
I like how you tried to put it intelligently with "let it settle" stuff and then followed it with "buuuuut, you know, there is statistics". Nice try. Too bad there is no "statistics". Unless it includes 4 gsl terran titles in a row for korea and undiniable zerg dominance in eu for last couple of years. The only statistics worth mentioning here is the average mmr of terrans, who constantly whine about.. everything, i guess?
Another imbecile stuck on 1 player winning GSL lmao.
Race representation has been P heavy for 1.5 years - it's now at a ridiculous level - you can't hide anymore lmao.
You don't know what you're talking about, mate. Terran has had FOUR bonjwas in brood war and flash alone won like 6 starleagues. Clearly that means that terran in 2019 sc2 is too strong and must be nerfed.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
On May 30 2019 21:14 the caz dog wrote: The thing is Protoss just recently got a decent nerf across all matchups, including the Air Upgrades (which have never been a problem at any time).
Instead of reducing Protoss strength, it seems to have had minimal effect.
Why? I think it's because Protoss players are better.
Before you rush to downvote and flame, I'm not talking about mechanics, macro, micro, mini-map awareness, etc. I'm talking about the capacity to generate new and innovative builds as a community.
I feel lucky to have picked a race that happens to be played by guys like sOs, MC, Day9, Parting, Artosis, Petit Drogo, Trap and even an unknown like Max Pax (and so many others I've left out). They aren't whiners, but rather, they all have made massive creative contributions to how Protoss is played at one time or another. Then there's guys like Gemini, distilling and distributing that knowledge to us lower league types.
Can Terran and Zerg players say the same about their community leaders? I'm not so sure. And without the KESPA system, the meta is more volatile than I've ever seen, so having that community helping to solve problems is more important than ever before.
Anyway, I think Protoss will be nerfed at some point. But we've just seen how nerfing Toss can just make them stronger. That only makes sense if there is some other factor at play - which could be something like the types of communities each respective race have cultivated.
I'm hoping Group D will provide some good games before the PvPlayoffs and if Dark and Inno can escape the group we've got a pretty decent Ro8 after all is said and done.
On May 30 2019 10:25 waiting2Bbanned wrote: We have the B-list Trap and Hurricane, the semi-retired Hero and the actual retired Parting in the GSL RO8. This is what passes nowadays for the 'world absolute best' in SC2 talent, really??
I never imagined I'd say these words, but I really miss David Kim!!
Watching Classic stroll through a string of flawless victories on his way to the trophy is gonna be great! The suspense is killing me LOL
This is just sad..
Classic is the only acceptable Protoss all at once and everyone would be delighted now to see him win a Code S in his last year(after being underrated for his entire career), while herO who is most likely about to retire as well is half-active(low skilled, I guess)?
PartinG actually came back from retirement, he's recovering, while Trap seems eventually on the verge of becoming a top player once that he is free from the towering shades of his teammates. Harry "GentleBreeze" Kane is probably the one who benefits the most from his meta, but he definitely earned his ro8 spot by dispatching Solar and Ragnarok.
The sad thing is the disproportionate amount of whine and Protoss hate.
Annnnnnd this is why no one respects you.
Bury your head in the sand more. Protoss needs a nerf its completely obvious and u over here like "b b b but they all just gods..git good other races....ommmmg protoss has all the spots bb bb b but maru and serral win!?"
Rofl, can't decide if your post is more exhilarant or pathetic; in any of case, you are so nasty and pointless that having your respect would greatly disappoint me. I openly stated Warp Prism most likely needs a nerf in exchange for late game buffs to Protoss but this does not justify whining 24/7.
What happens if we remove all the tournaments won by Serral and Maru(not considering WCS WinteR)? Three Super Tournaments won by Protoss, then two Katowice won by Rogue and soO, Pyeonchang won by Scarlett and WESG 2018 won by Inno: Protoss overwhelming, you are right! Your lies don't stop here, Protoss overabundance in GSL started in 2019 so it's at worst five months of Protoss "domination" and so many Protoss magically produce an even distribution of Premier victories this year: we are at 1 T-1 P titles in Korea and 3 Z-2 P-2 T overall.
Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
so what mmr are you to make you think you are such hot shit?
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
so what mmr are you to make you think you are such hot shit?
Masters 2, nothing to be proud of, and i never said i'm hot shit, i just can't stand the whine from people who don't even play the game.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
User was warned for this post.
Not sure who these gold terrans are, but it's pretty clear who the kid having a tantrum on the forum is. Maybe it's time to take a nap.
The fact is that GSL is where balance decisions are made, and there has been an issue with Protoss for a long time now. Blizzard should take a look at the early game and fix it.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
User was warned for this post.
Not sure who these gold terrans are, but it's pretty clear who the kid having a tantrum on the forum is. Maybe it's time to take a nap.
The fact is that GSL is where balance decisions are made, and there has been an issue with Protoss for a long time now. Blizzard should take a look at the early game and fix it.
Yup, Blizzard will definitely be looking at the GSL results. 7/8 Protoss at the last GSL Super Tournament is not a good look. And now we have 5/6 Protoss after 3 groups in the Round of 16 for this GSL. That is also not a good look.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
If I was going to buff Terran to help TvP in the early midgame without changing late game too much my vote would be increasing the lock on range for the cyclone by 1. This would give T a slightly stronger way to repel things like warp prisms and oracle and would provide more ability to micro vs stalkers in the midgame, but it wouldn’t do much in the late game because cyclones fall off late and you can’t be microing cyclones one at a time once it hits the max army stage of the game. It also wouldn’t effect the DPS of units which means it wouldn’t have much impact at the A-move levels of the ladder.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
so what mmr are you to make you think you are such hot shit?
Masters 2, nothing to be proud of, and i never said i'm hot shit, i just can't stand the whine from people who don't even play the game.
you can't stand the whine of low league players? I don't believe you. you thrive on the comments of low league players because arguing with low league players makes you look good (in a cheap and obvious way, of course ). you have 2 strategies on the forums: 1) derail balance discussion by focusing on the comments of low league players, 2) derail balance discussions by summoning the name "avilo"
you never engage with the reasonable suggestions or observations, only with the bad ones. it's the same protoss bullshit in-game and beyond the game: retarded aggression and cheesy arguments to give you the advantage. if you are a protoss player who really cares about the game, you'd want the game to be fun to play for all races, fair competition in all match-ups, and high viewership (which is necessitated by fun + fair + balanced).
doesn't really matter if you are proud of your mmr or not. are you proud of beating a terran or zerg who played better than you? that's the question protoss players should be asking themselves. ok ok, it's fun to be the imba race for a while stim-for-the-win terrans had their fun time... bl infestor zergs had their fun time... now protoss has had their fun time too! but eventually you have to accept that it's hurting the game.
you know what is most rewarding about sc2? when you win a game and your opponent actually RESPECTS your play afterwards. go back to HotS and think about TvZ. you micro vs my widow mines, and I'll micro vs your banelings. equal effort expected on both sides. now think about current patch TvP. I kill my wrists splitting against your storms and disruptor balls, while you put your feet up and wait for cooldowns? :D the terran is queue-shifting, stutter stepping and clicking out of his mind to control a fragile medivac drop - careful of all the risks and dangers, because losing the drop can lose the game - while you dick around with a 10 range invincible prism? click click click MASS ZEALOT WARP-IN then just move the camera back to your side of the map (to build another nexus of course! :D) and those zealots get 22 scv kills without you even looking you can just fly that thing thru turrets, lose it over and over - where is the risk? how do I punish? oh yeah, and all those insta-death build order losses? there is a good minute or more after terran commits to mech (which is easily scoutable) and where toss can literally just throw down gateways and win with a huge gateway push when T tries to take a third... fantasy on king's cove is a good example. yeah... it's nothing personal, but I haven't gg'd a protoss player since WoL. mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays. wish it could be different. it would be nice if we could have a gentlemanly, sportsmanlike game of TvP.
On May 30 2019 23:31 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: Honestly, if the Protoss players cared about the game, they would never defend the joke that is this situation. I used to be top 8 master when the game was healthy, so Ive been through a lot of era of dominance. I quit the game 3 years ago ( around when Proleague disbanded), but I ve been following the scene for a while. No wonder the game is getting "more dead" every day. Having such imbalance in the game is terrible for viewers and players.
TLDR: if protoss players cared more about starcraft surviving than their winrate on ladder, they would not defend that bullshit. They are just contributing even more to the downfall of this once great franchise.
TLDR: if 3k terrans cared more about their winrate on ladder rather than justifying their lack of skill on public boards, they would definitely invest more time into actually getting better at the game.
You're doing an awful lot of whining to excuse the protoss imbalance issue. Definitely having a credibility problem
Gold terrans talking credibility. Now i've seen everything.
so what mmr are you to make you think you are such hot shit?
Masters 2, nothing to be proud of, and i never said i'm hot shit, i just can't stand the whine from people who don't even play the game.
you can't stand the whine of low league players? I don't believe you. you thrive on the comments of low league players because arguing with low league players makes you look good (in a cheap and obvious way, of course ). you have 2 strategies on the forums: 1) derail balance discussion by focusing on the comments of low league players, 2) derail balance discussions by summoning the name "avilo"
you never engage with the reasonable suggestions or observations, only with the bad ones. it's the same protoss bullshit in-game and beyond the game: retarded aggression and cheesy arguments to give you the advantage. if you are a protoss player who really cares about the game, you'd want the game to be fun to play for all races, fair competition in all match-ups, and high viewership (which is necessitated by fun + fair + balanced).
doesn't really matter if you are proud of your mmr or not. are you proud of beating a terran or zerg who played better than you? that's the question protoss players should be asking themselves. ok ok, it's fun to be the imba race for a while stim-for-the-win terrans had their fun time... bl infestor zergs had their fun time... now protoss has had their fun time too! but eventually you have to accept that it's hurting the game.
you know what is most rewarding about sc2? when you win a game and your opponent actually RESPECTS your play afterwards. go back to HotS and think about TvZ. you micro vs my widow mines, and I'll micro vs your banelings. equal effort expected on both sides. now think about current patch TvP. I kill my wrists splitting against your storms and disruptor balls, while you put your feet up and wait for cooldowns? :D the terran is queue-shifting, stutter stepping and clicking out of his mind to control a fragile medivac drop - careful of all the risks and dangers, because losing the drop can lose the game - while you dick around with a 10 range invincible prism? click click click MASS ZEALOT WARP-IN then just move the camera back to your side of the map (to build another nexus of course! :D) and those zealots get 22 scv kills without you even looking you can just fly that thing thru turrets, lose it over and over - where is the risk? how do I punish? oh yeah, and all those insta-death build order losses? there is a good minute or more after terran commits to mech (which is easily scoutable) and where toss can literally just throw down gateways and win with a huge gateway push when T tries to take a third... fantasy on king's cove is a good example. yeah... it's nothing personal, but I haven't gg'd a protoss player since WoL. mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays. wish it could be different. it would be nice if we could have a gentlemanly, sportsmanlike game of TvP.
That was here all the time, Protoss hardness lies somewhere else than mechanical things. I'm not saying it's right(especially compared to bio play), but that's how it is. And this won't change, so let's just move on from this stuff.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
If I was going to buff Terran to help TvP in the early midgame without changing late game too much my vote would be increasing the lock on range for the cyclone by 1. This would give T a slightly stronger way to repel things like warp prisms and oracle and would provide more ability to micro vs stalkers in the midgame, but it wouldn’t do much in the late game because cyclones fall off late and you can’t be microing cyclones one at a time once it hits the max army stage of the game. It also wouldn’t effect the DPS of units which means it wouldn’t have much impact at the A-move levels of the ladder.
bad idea. +1 lock-on range would break mech vZ. anyway, terran doesn't need a better way to shoot down an oracle or warp prism... cyclones already do that just fine. there no magical buff to a single unit that will fix TvP. the real problem is much more complicated: the economy and the main army. by the 10 minute mark, toss is just always ahead in workers, infratructure and usually upgrades. there needs to be a way to stop toss from taking such an easy third, or from teching up so fast - OR - there needs to be a way for terran to speed up his own infrastructure and take a third safely. the REAL problem is that protoss can literally march against an entrenched terran position - buildings blocking with tanks behind (tanks with high ground """advantage"""), bunkers full of marines, scvs blocking - you name it - the protoss a-move >> entrenched terran. the rules do not apply to protoss! if you are zerg, you can't just fucking walk into tanks LOL. marines can't just walk into tanks and magically win in TvT
I say give tanks a +shield dmg upgrade and borrow the human build mechanic from wc3 (multiple scvs build building faster). yeah, ppl don't like the +shield dmg variable because tanks also have the +armored thing, but really, I don't see why a unit can't have 2 different dmg modifiers. I can suspend disbelief or sense of design elegance if it does the job
On May 31 2019 05:18 SHODAN wrote: mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays.
I guess this is one of those reasonable arguments i don't engage with. Sorry about that.
On May 31 2019 05:18 SHODAN wrote: mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays.
I guess this is one of those reasonable arguments i don't engage with. Sorry about that.
see? more protoss bullshit. focus on the most petty, trivial thing and ignore all the substance you literally just demonstrated what I wrote in the first paragraph - congrats, thx for playing
On May 31 2019 05:18 SHODAN wrote: mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays.
I guess this is one of those reasonable arguments i don't engage with. Sorry about that.
see? more protoss bullshit. focus on the most petty, trivial thing and ignore all the substance you literally just demonstrated what I wrote in the first paragraph - congrats, thx for playing
And the substance was: protoss takes less skill than terran? Did i miss something? Man, you speak about respect, then talk "death ballz protoss zero skill, i kill my wrists protoss a-click" stuff and you want me to take that seriously? Anyways. Whatever. I guess mods are mad already. I'm out.
On May 31 2019 05:18 SHODAN wrote: mothership core = no respect, fuck you. deathball = no respect, fuck you. usually I just lift my buildings and write mean stuff nowadays.
I guess this is one of those reasonable arguments i don't engage with. Sorry about that.
see? more protoss bullshit. focus on the most petty, trivial thing and ignore all the substance you literally just demonstrated what I wrote in the first paragraph - congrats, thx for playing
And the substance was: protoss takes less skill than terran? Did i miss something? Man, you speak about respect, then talk "death ballz protoss zero skill, i kill my wrists protoss a-click" stuff and you want me to take that seriously? Anyways. Whatever. I guess mods are mad already. I'm out.
So wait.. your arguement that you dont do exactly what he said you do is to find a post of his where he is raging?? Very nice example proving his point about you lolol. Anybody who has been following wcs and gsl knows their is clearly a problem. Whether you choose to be honest about it or not is up to you but there is literally no question that changes are coming at this point. Whether they wait till GSL finishes or not is the only thing in question now and since its looking more and more like there will be an all toss ro4 id bet on sooner than later.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
If I was going to buff Terran to help TvP in the early midgame without changing late game too much my vote would be increasing the lock on range for the cyclone by 1. This would give T a slightly stronger way to repel things like warp prisms and oracle and would provide more ability to micro vs stalkers in the midgame, but it wouldn’t do much in the late game because cyclones fall off late and you can’t be microing cyclones one at a time once it hits the max army stage of the game. It also wouldn’t effect the DPS of units which means it wouldn’t have much impact at the A-move levels of the ladder.
bad idea. +1 lock-on range would break mech vZ. anyway, terran doesn't need a better way to shoot down an oracle or warp prism... cyclones already do that just fine. there no magical buff to a single unit that will fix TvP. the real problem is much more complicated: the economy and the main army. by the 10 minute mark, toss is just always ahead in workers, infratructure and usually upgrades. there needs to be a way to stop toss from taking such an easy third, or from teching up so fast - OR - there needs to be a way for terran to speed up his own infrastructure and take a third safely. the REAL problem is that protoss can literally march against an entrenched terran position - buildings blocking with tanks behind (tanks with high ground """advantage"""), bunkers full of marines, scvs blocking - you name it - the protoss a-move >> entrenched terran. the rules do not apply to protoss! if you are zerg, you can't just fucking walk into tanks LOL. marines can't just walk into tanks and magically win in TvT
I say give tanks a +shield dmg upgrade and borrow the human build mechanic from wc3 (multiple scvs build building faster). yeah, ppl don't like the +shield dmg variable because tanks also have the +armored thing, but really, I don't see why a unit can't have 2 different dmg modifiers. I can suspend disbelief or sense of design elegance if it does the job
Sure, then remove their smartfire. Current tanks are already strong enough to obliterate even immortals if their count gets out of hand. It's not like Protoss has dark swarm
Terran defensive units are really bad. Bunkers are worthless. Siege Tanks got nerfed in WoL and never got their strength back (like Immortals have now). People complained about tank + medivac, but OP prism + immortal isn't a huge problem? :/ Liberators are extremely slow and don't work against any good players.
Terran needs stronger ways to defend aganst all the super high HP Protoss units that walk through defenses and never die. There are too many different threats that Protoss has in the early game, and even when Terran knows they are coming, they still can't be stopped. Blink, shade, and warp prism make a mockery of otherwise good micro and strategy, and are just imbalanced.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
If I was going to buff Terran to help TvP in the early midgame without changing late game too much my vote would be increasing the lock on range for the cyclone by 1. This would give T a slightly stronger way to repel things like warp prisms and oracle and would provide more ability to micro vs stalkers in the midgame, but it wouldn’t do much in the late game because cyclones fall off late and you can’t be microing cyclones one at a time once it hits the max army stage of the game. It also wouldn’t effect the DPS of units which means it wouldn’t have much impact at the A-move levels of the ladder.
bad idea. +1 lock-on range would break mech vZ. anyway, terran doesn't need a better way to shoot down an oracle or warp prism... cyclones already do that just fine. there no magical buff to a single unit that will fix TvP. the real problem is much more complicated: the economy and the main army. by the 10 minute mark, toss is just always ahead in workers, infratructure and usually upgrades. there needs to be a way to stop toss from taking such an easy third, or from teching up so fast - OR - there needs to be a way for terran to speed up his own infrastructure and take a third safely. the REAL problem is that protoss can literally march against an entrenched terran position - buildings blocking with tanks behind (tanks with high ground """advantage"""), bunkers full of marines, scvs blocking - you name it - the protoss a-move >> entrenched terran. the rules do not apply to protoss! if you are zerg, you can't just fucking walk into tanks LOL. marines can't just walk into tanks and magically win in TvT
I say give tanks a +shield dmg upgrade and borrow the human build mechanic from wc3 (multiple scvs build building faster). yeah, ppl don't like the +shield dmg variable because tanks also have the +armored thing, but really, I don't see why a unit can't have 2 different dmg modifiers. I can suspend disbelief or sense of design elegance if it does the job
Sure, then remove their smartfire. Current tanks are already strong enough to obliterate even immortals if their count gets out of hand. It's not like Protoss has dark swarm
The problem is timing attacks are super good vs. Z. I think the gentlest change would be to reduce immortal movement speed. But then P would need to go lategame vs Z, which is quite challenging, and that doesn't really fix PvT, which does seem pretty ugly right now.
Maybe also add an upgrade requirement for Tempests to attack ground?
On May 31 2019 08:01 ThunderJunk wrote: The problem is timing attacks are super good vs. Z. I think the gentlest change would be to reduce immortal movement speed. But then P would need to go lategame vs Z, which is quite challenging, and that doesn't really fix PvT, which does seem pretty ugly right now.
Maybe also add an upgrade requirement for Tempests to attack ground?
Do you mean an upgrade so Tempests can attack ground e.g. when you first build them, they can only hit air?
On May 31 2019 08:01 ThunderJunk wrote: The problem is timing attacks are super good vs. Z. I think the gentlest change would be to reduce immortal movement speed. But then P would need to go lategame vs Z, which is quite challenging, and that doesn't really fix PvT, which does seem pretty ugly right now.
Maybe also add an upgrade requirement for Tempests to attack ground?
So, you want to nerf the immortal(mkey) and then nerf the lategame of toss. That's nice, but PvT nowadays rarely gets into the lategame and tempests are used to shut down long range liberators Generally speaking this will slightly help in PvZ and does nothing for PvT except the nerf of the proxy tempest cheese.
PvZ - You don't have to juggle Immortals to win with many of these pushes. It does help though. If it is toned down further (and yes, both Warp Prisms and Immortals have been nerfed over their history), it's going to be the loss of a cool form of micro that pros are using more and more effectively.
It's funny that Robo openers became more popular in response to Nydus, and now we've re-learned how good the timing pushes are as a result. Also, no Protoss player wants to go late game vs Zerg anymore. Any timing push / allin nerfs should include addressing Protoss weakness in lategame PvZ.
PvT - Some kind of buff to Terran might be helpful. It's hard to know exactly what form it would take though. Something around making the Protoss 3rd a bit harder to take might be on the right track. Trade that for a way to deal with BCs, and we are talking.
If I was going to buff Terran to help TvP in the early midgame without changing late game too much my vote would be increasing the lock on range for the cyclone by 1. This would give T a slightly stronger way to repel things like warp prisms and oracle and would provide more ability to micro vs stalkers in the midgame, but it wouldn’t do much in the late game because cyclones fall off late and you can’t be microing cyclones one at a time once it hits the max army stage of the game. It also wouldn’t effect the DPS of units which means it wouldn’t have much impact at the A-move levels of the ladder.
bad idea. +1 lock-on range would break mech vZ. anyway, terran doesn't need a better way to shoot down an oracle or warp prism... cyclones already do that just fine. there no magical buff to a single unit that will fix TvP. the real problem is much more complicated: the economy and the main army. by the 10 minute mark, toss is just always ahead in workers, infratructure and usually upgrades. there needs to be a way to stop toss from taking such an easy third, or from teching up so fast - OR - there needs to be a way for terran to speed up his own infrastructure and take a third safely. the REAL problem is that protoss can literally march against an entrenched terran position - buildings blocking with tanks behind (tanks with high ground """advantage"""), bunkers full of marines, scvs blocking - you name it - the protoss a-move >> entrenched terran. the rules do not apply to protoss! if you are zerg, you can't just fucking walk into tanks LOL. marines can't just walk into tanks and magically win in TvT
I say give tanks a +shield dmg upgrade and borrow the human build mechanic from wc3 (multiple scvs build building faster). yeah, ppl don't like the +shield dmg variable because tanks also have the +armored thing, but really, I don't see why a unit can't have 2 different dmg modifiers. I can suspend disbelief or sense of design elegance if it does the job
Sure, then remove their smartfire. Current tanks are already strong enough to obliterate even immortals if their count gets out of hand. It's not like Protoss has dark swarm
2 supply and we got ourselves a deal
Without the smartfire I don't see an issue in it, could be at least tested.
I think the problem with tvp right now is that there really is no back and fourth between players for who has map control.
If you look at tvz, a healthy matchup control over the game swings back and fourth allowing both players to establish themselves on the map and invest into better tech. Tvz has a nice interplay of timings. 1. Terran gets a reaper so they have map control and can take their nat 2. Zerg gets speed so they have map control and can set up a third base and spread creep 3. Terran gets hellions so they have map control and can force units and take a third base 4. Zerg gets lair tech and has more economy so they have map control and can take a 4th base 5 Terran gets a strong army and can push out so they have map control. They can sometimes win the game at this point. 6. Zerg gets hive tech and their army become better than terran’s in the open field so they can push terrran back and take map control 7. Zergs army becomes slower in late game as they tech to broods so Terran can start to drop and Harrass agian while playing for late game. 8. Terran and Zerg battle over terran’s ability to take the remaining unclaimed bases on their side of the map. If Terran gets these basses they usually win since they have more efficient units, if zerg denies these basses they usually win since they have more money.
Obviously not all tvz go exactly this way. Nor is it perfectly ballanced. But the point is that each race has windows of strength and weeknes that help them take the map and stay even with each other despite the asymmetrical design of the game.
Compare this to tvp and just try to justify the way it works right now.
1. Protoss makes gateway units so they have map control 2. Protoss makes blink stalkers so they still have map control 3. Terran either goes an Allin build giving them a minute window to win the game or they try to play the long game with blink, warprism, upgrades and a better economy toss is able to maintain map control taking ever more basses 4.Terran finally stabilizes on siege units and takes a 4th. 5. Toss has aoe+ tempest and starts seiging the 4th so they still have map control.
6. Usualy at this point Terran losses the game since they are behind in tech,upgrades,econ. And map control. But if they reach bcs it becomes a more even game and Terran can maybe take a 5th base vs toss’s 7. From here terran’s utilty finally becomes relevant, they can start using mules to get a better max and using mobility to hit toss basses but it’s still an uphill fight.
Do you see the problem here. Protoss has total control over the game from the beginning up to Terran getting a 5th base unless Terran allins. This is the problem with the matchup right now, there is not enough timing windows for Terran to catch up from the early lead Protoss starts with Protoss grabs the map with their first gate way units, they hold on to it till the super late game. And even in super late game terran’s army is barely better than toss’s and really that’s only due to true maxing. So it’s very hard to overcome how behind Terran gets during the 14 minutes of almost total control of the game toss has( minus the one minute 2 base Allin window). The only way to fix this is to give Terran something that lets them push back the blink stalkers and the follow up to blink stalkers long enough to normalize on econmy and tech. In the past this used to work out Terran would get stim and be able to catch up, but toss builds have become refined enough and allins threatening enough that they can go straight from the point of controlling the map with blink to controlling the map with blink+aoe with almost no window of vulnerability between the two. Terran just can’t seem to swing map control back with stim bio and is forced into hard core turtling instead which allows toss to get even more ahead. It feels like your playing civ 4 vs the Persians and they get to chain 5 golden ages togeather You just fall more and more behind and there’s nothing to swing the game back into your favor.
I think that if they reduced stim reaseaech time or gave cuncusive shells a + 10 vs mechanicle modifier it would really start to ballance our the matchup Terran would get a window between blink stalkers and blink stalkers+aoe that they could Get set up and even out the game somewhat. Terran needs a window where they get to push back the stalkers and control the map if the stalkers did not kill them.
I think they need to start talking about nerfing the warp prism at this point. It would not take much, just give each individual unit a like .5 second pick up/drop cool down and shrink the pylon area to make it so that you can't warp in 20 supply at once.
On June 01 2019 09:21 washikie wrote:I think that if they reduced stim reaseaech time or gave cuncusive shells a + 10 vs mechanicle modifier it would really start to ballance our the matchup Terran would get a window between blink stalkers and blink stalkers+aoe that they could Get set up and even out the game somewhat. Terran needs a window where they get to push back the stalkers and control the map if the stalkers did not kill them.
i'm not sure that you understand the "problem" with tvp (assuming you think terran is underpowered, which most terrans do). blink stalkers are not what make terran fall behind. terran has many 2 base pushes which are extremely strong right now, even when all protoss blindcounter these pushes they're still difficult to hold. terran starts becoming weaker if they don't do a 2 base push or if their push doesn't do enough damage because protoss is able to sit back on 3 bases and build a massive ground army while making any tech they want.
you are proposing buffs to terran that would kick in as they're doing those 2 base pushes, which would make them ridiculously unbreakably strong and push winrates toward terran being OP. if you want to make the matchup better then you want to make terran stronger in the 3 base vs 3 base part of the game. terran is already strong on 2 bases and on 4-5+ bases.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2019/codes2/renaissancebanner.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2019/codes2/ro8bracket1_1.png)
(Maru was winning the Code S, Terran is fine)
