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Hello TeamLiquid!!!
I am a new SC2 player, I've been playing for a month. I play, watch streams, practice diffferent build orders for an average of at least 14 hours per day. I only took 2 days off to get my mind straight.
I have previous RTS experience, so I understand the importance of timings, scouting, build orders, and non-stop "worker' production - none of which I do entire perfectly, but I focus practicing to do as I understand the importance of it.
I started as Bronze 2 and currently I am flirting with Silver 1, and I have won 2 Gold League Tournaments.
I do not play Cheese, but I can deal with almost every cheese the opponent throws at me at this level.
My current win percentage is 51% (70% in the last 10 games based on GGGreplays), which I believe is very low at this level if I ever want to advance in my MMR. So I'm stuck right here at the moment. I know I can do better so I am here asking for your help.
I totally understand I am a noob player, otherwise I would not be stuck in Silver, but I believe I have the right mindset to improve. I take the game very serious.
One of the major issues I believe that slows my advance is that I get my mind burned playing so many hours each day, and I happen to lose very easy games because of it....but i cannot help it! i like the game so much.
I would like some help, if you guys have an effective "training schedule" so I can follow or point me into the right direction, yes, I strongly believe most of the games I lose is because I'm mind burned, but I just can't stop playing or going away from the game... so an effective schedule to follow by heart that includes training hours,ranked hours, stream hours will really help me.
thank you all and sorry for the essay :D
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China5591 Posts
Yeah the exact problem is that you spend a bit too much time for your level, and actually harmed your mindset and physical situation. I've been there couple years ago. Practiced 30-40 games a day at high silver - mid gold, still couldn't get out of it, end up developed carpel tunnel. At this point, you want to focus on practicing one, single aspect of your race at a time. Forget about winrates, get down to fundamentals one at a time, once you feel you get a good hang of it, move on to other things. Start with economy, constantly making workers, supply block as little as you can, get as big as an army as you can. Then move on to army control group, map awareness, etc.
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Lol, i already see your mindset is wrong, to "get gut" at sc2 you need 1-2years of practicing and watching daily, you barely played it for a month and you are already tired of it? you dont need to play 30-40games a day, 5-10 is enough. But what you do need is solid macro build order, its benchmarks and analyzing every replay.
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What's missing is "I enjoy playing the game." If you enjoy playing the game you will improve naturally very quickly. Just have fun and ladder. Find a group that you can show your replays to and for them to give you advice. Practicing BO should only be a small proportion of time. There's no need to adhere to a strict schedule; 14 hours is way too much (how much time do you even have left to eat and bath?) and in all likelyhood most of that will not be the most important part of improving; laddering. You are silver don't overanalyse; if you know the basics, ladder, watch and analyse your losing reps, spend some time relaxing and watching tourneys or streams and get back straight to laddering.
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Korea (South)215 Posts
Well, speaking as someone who also started out bronze and made it to masters at the end of my serious playing, I also feel you shouldn't concentrate on grinding games out at that level.
For me, when I first did it, since I also had no previous RTS experience, I took baby steps.
First, I learnt 1 base cheese and builds and practiced that to around silver.
From silver, I learnt 2 base builds and practiced off the back of those, mixing them with 1 base all ins as well.
From gold, I tried macro, and I got hammered at first so many times, but managed to slowly but surely get a feel for it, and it was from this point I really looked at pro builds and how to use them macro wise.
Its important to note though I didn't follow their builds down to the wire; I just used them as a feel for how macro proceeds. I watched a ton of Rain when I was playing Protoss, and I kind of got the timings for when to build gateways, robos, twilights, upgrades gist wise.
You should first focus on getting 1-2 base builds done, and then move to macro. I feel that helps you in both getting better and winning whilst doing so.
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I won't comment on the 14 hours per day because that's stupid and others have told you why already.
so I understand the importance of timings, scouting, build orders, and non-stop "worker' production
None of this matters in silver 2, except the last one. None of this matters until at least low diamond. You will reach diamond once you consistently achieve those 3 goals throughout the game:
1: constant worker production until 3 base saturation / 66 workers (by FAR the most important)
2: constantly spending your resources with army units/production buildings
3: don't get supply blocked
Pick ONE build for all 3 match ups. It should be low tech (focusing on macro rather than complex micro), safe (so you don't die to stupid shit) and macro oriented (so you can learn multi base economy). I don't know what race you play, but it doesn't matter. Don't bother scouting. Don't bother about what your opponent is doing, they're as clueless as you are. It doesn't matter what units they make if you have 3 times as much.
The last thing you should focus on is mechanics. This will help your macro the most. If you're not already doing it, here are 3 essential tools you need to use:
1: hotkey your production buildings
2: hotkey your army (1 control group is fine for now)
3: use camera location for your bases.
Good luck!
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2019 00:51 fastr wrote:Show nested quote +so I understand the importance of timings, scouting, build orders, and non-stop "worker' production None of this matters in silver 2, except the last one. None of this matters until at least low diamond. You will reach diamond once you consistently achieve those 3 goals throughout the game: 1: constant worker production until 3 base saturation / 66 workers (by FAR the most important) 2: constantly spending your resources with army units/production buildings 3: don't get supply blocked Pick ONE build for all 3 match ups. It should be low tech (focusing on macro rather than complex micro), safe (so you don't die to stupid shit) and macro oriented (so you can learn multi base economy). I don't know what race you play, but it doesn't matter. Don't bother scouting. Don't bother about what your opponent is doing, they're as clueless as you are. It doesn't matter what units they make if you have 3 times as much. The last thing you should focus on is mechanics. This will help your macro the most. If you're not already doing it, here are 3 essential tools you need to use: 1: hotkey your production buildings 2: hotkey your army (1 control group is fine for now) 3: use camera location for your bases. Good luck!
I believe that what fastr wrote (in the spoiler above) is hands down the best suggestion in the thread so far. It mentions all the most beneficial fundamentals in a clear and condensed matter. If you follow these advices at least loosely and have more than 80 EPM you should be able to reach diamond in no time.
I want to reiterate that building workers non-stop is the sole thing that can catapult you several leagues higher by itself. Make sure to have a hotkey for your nexus/cc/hatcheries and always build workers!
As far as spending all your resources and not getting supply blocked is concerned, I would like to add that overbuilding supply and production is far superior to not having enough. E.g. if you notice that you often get supply blocked, make 2-3 evev 4 pylons at once instead of one (even in the early game). If you try to follow a build order where some progamer made 6 gateways for example, make 8-9 gateways instead. Your race doesn't matter of course. It is rare to see anyone being able to spend resources even remotely decently before masters at the very least. Overmake production buildings and supply buildings so you never get supply stuck or be unable to spend all your money!
Lastly, do not get stuck trying to do fancy stuff while neglecting your macro. E.g. spending all your attention on microing your 5 marine drop or your 4 phoenix harrassment will always be inefficient for you if you end up forgetting to build workers, supply and production.
p.s. Re-read what fastr wrote!
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Thank all of you guys for your answers,
yes, it's stupid to play for so many hours, not only for my level, but for every level, and for any game. I just happen to enjoy SC2 and I got addicted really quick, and I do want to get better.
After reading your answers, other than my burnout, I have decided to focus on one and only thing at this point, and that is macro until I get really good at it, without caring about wins or loses at this point, of course I will be watching my replays to look for any mistakes I've made.
I believe in my opinion, macro is the most important skill in the game, and mastering that as my basis will make me improve in the future which I will not try to rush. I will also focus on one build order vs any matchup....
I'll try to keep everything simple, because at the moment I have so much info (build orders I've tried, timings, etc) on my tired mind that I get confused myself during the games. I should take steps back and focus on macro and one build order for the time being.
So far, I have a goal to reach 70 workers within 10 minutes and stop there.I do try to spend all my resources, I build more production buildings for that. Supply block is not really a problem, I have 1 worker constantly building supply depots or pylons etc..I will call them "houses" because I play all 3 races.
And yes I worry too much on micro...and that keeps me behind in my macro..I need to focus on macro entirely and just attack with the "A" move for now on, unless I see the game is about to end in my favor. I do use hotkeys for my CC,Hatchery,Nexus and for my production buildings so that solves the issue but not entirely, it's pointless if I kill 5 enemy workers and not make 5 of my own, it's the same thing....so macro.
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i have another suggestion
Do what you are afraid to do.
For example:
Afraid to take third at 4.30? take it.
Afraid to attack opponent? do it.
Afraid to do tech switch? do it.
And so on. By doing risky things you will learn what you can get away with.
Remember in below masters, nobody really bothers scouting or really punishing opponents.
I just started new smurf account to improve my zerg, and i got matched vs 2k 2.5k 3.0k 3.5k players and they all are afraid to do anything, to attack, to drop, to expand, most of them just sits on 1 base and turtle.. im basically free to do whatever i want, since i know i can get away with it...
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On May 11 2019 02:56 skdsk wrote:
i have another suggestion
Do what you are afraid to do.
For example:
Afraid to take third at 4.30? take it.
Afraid to attack opponent? do it.
Afraid to do tech switch? do it.
And so on. By doing risky things you will learn what you can get away with.
Remember in below masters, nobody really bothers scouting or really punishing opponents.
I just started new smurf account to improve my zerg, and i got matched vs 2k 2.5k 3.0k 3.5k players and they all are afraid to do anything, to attack, to drop, to expand, most of them just sits on 1 base and turtle.. im basically free to do whatever i want, since i know i can get away with it...
I totally understand what you are talking about being afraid of certain things.
It really depends what your opponent throws at you, how much early in the game and the quality of the units, but you can counter all that with experience.
At the moment I am really afraid expanding when I play against Zerg, because of Zerg early aggression - but I manage to deal with it effectively by constantly harassing the Zerg early on keeping him at bay, while I expand safely.
I used to have problems against Terran Battlecruiser Turtles... but that is no problem anymore since I figured I need to control the whole map and the resources until the Turtle dies of starvation...Battlecruisers are not a problem anymore since he cannot make that many without resources and they die one by one...they usually surrender without even me invading their natural.
My 51% win rate is probably underestimated , because I've lost many games in a row in the past against cheeses and turtles which now I have no problem going against, now I actually pray for such thing to happen because I counter effectively - it feels like a free win.
Yes, not being afraid is very good mind set...sometimes I keep on pressuring the opponent, and he gets afraid and eventually loses the game because he gives me space to expand and upgrade my army...although when I watch my winning replays I see moments that if my opponent would have attacked I would be destroyed immediately with what he had. This is probably how to affect the opponent psychologicaly and make him think it's a losing battle for him..
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The best way to improve is have fun with the game and play it for long times. The best amount of games u can play and practive is 5-6 hours per day with breaks. If you go for less and have lots of fun it can even be better fro improvement (arround 3 hours 12-14 games). But if you really play only 1-2 hours per day u will not improve that fast it willt ake you like 2-3 years to reachs masters that way. So try a training schedule that takes like 5-7 hours per day with breaks. like 30-40 games.
Also its super important to watch lots of SC2 especially all the matchups of the race you play. The best casters for that are artosis and tasteless gsl and depending on the race u play there are some guys that have good knowledge like rotterdam for protoss.
Whats another good way toi improve is focusing only on a few aspects of the game and dont care if you lose or win. I made for this propuse an account for my APM train that i gave a espcial name and was able to improve my apm from 160 to around 250 in around 2 month . That was when i reached mid- high master after a few thousands games (i had an sc2 break for 7 years then i came back last year, i was grandmaster in wings of liberty, but the game is completly different now and i lost most of my skills in the 7 years so i rly had to completly relearn the complete game)
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Also note that it takes like 10 000 -20 000 ( 1500- 3000 hours, means 1 year 8 hours per day) games to master the game with hard pratice and mindest. For most it will take even longer to reach like highest master , low grandmaster.
So play more for fun and enjoy the improvement and see it as a challenge and dont burn out by 14 hours per day
By the way, DONT GIVE A SHIT about WINRATE !!, everyone has 50 % winrate in this game unless u reach grandmaster then u start with 55-60 % winrate because there are moistly lower opponents then u othberwise the system always finds same strenght opponents so everyone has 50 % winrate!!!
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On May 11 2019 04:02 dw.Justify wrote:
The best way to improve is have fun with the game and play it for long times. The best amount of games u can play and practive is 5-6 hours per day with breaks. If you go for less and have lots of fun it can even be better fro improvement (arround 3 hours 12-14 games). But if you really play only 1-2 hours per day u will not improve that fast it willt ake you like 2-3 years to reachs masters that way. So try a training schedule that takes like 5-7 hours per day with breaks. like 30-40 games.
Also its super important to watch lots of SC2 especially all the matchups of the race you play. The best casters for that are artosis and tasteless gsl and depending on the race u play there are some guys that have good knowledge like rotterdam for protoss.
Whats another good way toi improve is focusing only on a few aspects of the game and dont care if you lose or win. I made for this propuse an account for my APM train that i gave a espcial name and was able to improve my apm from 160 to around 250 in around 2 month . That was when i reached mid- high master after a few thousands games (i had an sc2 break for 7 years then i came back last year, i was grandmaster in wings of liberty, but the game is completly different now and i lost most of my skills in the 7 years so i rly had to completly relearn the complete game)
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Also note that it takes like 10 000 -20 000 ( 1500- 3000 hours, means 1 year 8 hours per day) games to master the game with hard pratice and mindest. For most it will take even longer to reach like highest master , low grandmaster.
So play more for fun and enjoy the improvement and see it as a challenge and dont burn out by 14 hours per day
By the way, DONT GIVE A SHIT about WINRATE !!, everyone has 50 % winrate in this game unless u reach grandmaster then u start with 55-60 % winrate because there are moistly lower opponents then u othberwise the system always finds same strenght opponents so everyone has 50 % winrate!!!
exactly even when you are gm, you will have 50% winrate since you will get matched vs serral reynor showtime heromarine uthermal and they will rek you so hard, it will be hopeless...
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If you'll play this much you will burnout pretty fast no matter how much you enjoy it. Especially this game because SC2 is even more unforgiving compared to BW: you do single micro mistake and there's no chance to comeback. As people say play around 4-5 maybe 6 hours and other time just watch stream eventually you will become better and better. Playing 14 hours will only work for mechanics at start nothing else, it's good but not the right approach and not healthy.
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i used to play 12h a day, then it dropped to 1 or 2. sometimes just a few games and the rest of the time went into replays. this thread has quickly turned into general tips rather than about the schedule and whatnot.
i personally feel it's impossible to be disciplined with a 6h+ schedule unless it's your day-job and whatnot.
from how you word things, i think you have the correct mentality.
i don't mean this to be harsh because i think it's good to have many thoughts about the game and how you play, but i think you talk too much about the games themselves.
what it usually means is that you're living each game and some of the true mistakes--the real gamelosing ones--go straight overhead.
mindgames for example, don't exactly exist in anything but diamond+ because players are preoccupied with themselves.
if in the replay he had more than enough to kill you, that means something is out of whack. either your opponent is making too much, or you have too little. either way, its hard to gather objective information on which if not both is occuring. this is all relative to pristine play that even professionals struggle to maintain.
i hope you get the point by me saying this. your focus should be on you to nail the absolute most important things to all play.
but onto constructiveness, i'll reiterate what a couple people have said, just because it's important.
it looks like you're terran or protoss from the way you talk about playing zerg. i'll say it's protoss.
camera hotkeys for bases // hotkey for all bases // hotkey(s) for production.
note that for protoss do not use the default 'W' hotkey for warpgates in general unless you're very diligent and you know very well why you're doing that.
always producing workers. always produce from your production buildings.
if the lights go off for even 30s, there was no reason for you to have that building in the first place. you could have maintained the same production from say 2 rax instead of 3.
you'll notice that by being anal about being constant, you will have way more than previously. i know you know this concept, but it is #1 always.
money never floats above 400
never is a strong word, but this is something to be very strict about.
if you build 3 bases (nexus, hatcheries, or CCs), that means money will be flowing rapidly. add production.
a general guideline (with a small grain of salt here):
Terran = 1 base = 3 rax worth of production. 3 base = 9 rax. remove 1 for starport, factory and upgrades. that means on 3 base full sat. you should at least be pumping out of 5 rax/2 fac/1 star. (counts as 2 if reactored)
Protoss is the same. you can produce from up to 7 or 8 gateways on 2 bases. adding upgrades removes 1 production building for each upgrade until completion.
again, no production from a building for even a small while, like 30s, means your money will go up, and you have wasted a building.
you don't want that. there is no strategic metagame or special tactic to be gained from banking up money when you are not max supply. it is simply being inefficient.
Zerg is tricky, but you will be able to max out and produce from hatcheries as bases no problem. no additional macro hatcheries as they're called, unless you're making inexpensive units like mass zerglings.
3 base = 3 hatcheries.
finally, you should post your replays here, and we can talk about the games themselves! i will be as constructive as possible.
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A little bit off topic. But I never found I could continously warp in from 7/8 Gateways on 2 bases. That's always something that irked me about protoss since I used to play Terran, that the continuous prodcution thing seems to be even detrimental as it's not possible to have a large warp in for defense or prism if you produce all the time.
As reference I have on 1 base fully (over) saturared I can support 2 Gateways + Worker production with a little left over (gas, if I produce Stalkers, though could make Sentries, and then have a little minerals left over). And since Warp Gate is faster than Gateway, it should only be 1 base = 2 Gateways + 1 Nexus Worker production.
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Basically, you need to focus on improving your game. Not winning.
Before each game, think about one thing you should focus on. Eg. make more production buildings, upgrades, workers etc.
After each game, if you win, what mistakes your opponent made that allowed to win. Some times it's as simple as I made more stuff and a-moved, but in other cases you saw an opening and abused it.
If you lose, figure out why you lost before you click the find match button again. If he cheesed, did you mismicro? Could you have scouted it? Were you playing unsafe?
Even up into masters, knowing why you won or lost is super important for improving, and it's something simply grinding out games doesn't achieve.
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Thank you guys for your help!
nanaoei that is very important information, thank you I really need that. Btw, I main Terran (as all new players I believe do), for alt I play mostly Zerg than Protoss, and Random, all in Silver 2..the reason I already started to alt the other 2 races this early, other than just trying them out, is so I can learn the cons and pros of each race so I know what to look for while maining the Terran race, but I do enjoy Zerg and Protoss as much, and I believe I will enjoy them much more in the future when I will start playing much more seriously with them.
My opening, is 1-1-1, after that it always depends on my opponent I will add 2 more rax for 3-1-1 or 2 factories 1-3-1...but I usually go bio 3-1-1...I never go Sky, no need... I believe I need to master my macro first in order for my economy to support the expensive Sky...and/or Mech.. so I prefer Bio atm which is quite effective at all times.....for Zerg I play Roach/Hydras, nothing else above it, probably just to decisively end the game I would make 7-8 BroodLords along with my Roach/Hydra army....for Protoss I haven't decided yet.
I am not afraid to switch tech when I need to. When my income is high and I need to spend a lot while in the end game if it takes long, I'll probably switch from Bio and pop 10-15 more factories and go Hellbat/Thors :D
Most of my games here in Silver, are cheeses. Like 9 out of 10 games the opponent will cheese - probably they want to get higher up the ladder quickly like this. I do not cheese, I m trying learn the game normaly, because I do not believe cheeses are so effective in high level play against more experienced palyers...and I do not want to cheese otherwise I will not learn how to play my main race and try different approaches. But 9 out of 10 these games while countering the cheese, will get me off my original build order....fortunately these games end quickly.
I watch all of my replays, win or loss..I watch them open map "everyone", from my point of view, and from the opponent's point of view. I analyze them, and I do spot mistakes even in my winning ones, and I make sure I don't do them on my next game.
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On May 11 2019 08:21 DSh1 wrote:
A little bit off topic. But I never found I could continously warp in from 7/8 Gateways on 2 bases. That's always something that irked me about protoss since I used to play Terran, that the continuous prodcution thing seems to be even detrimental as it's not possible to have a large warp in for defense or prism if you produce all the time.
As reference I have on 1 base fully (over) saturared I can support 2 Gateways + Worker production with a little left over (gas, if I produce Stalkers, though could make Sentries, and then have a little minerals left over). And since Warp Gate is faster than Gateway, it should only be 1 base = 2 Gateways + 1 Nexus Worker production.
You can exactly produce from 8 gateways with 44 workers full 2 base saturation. When u warpin pure stalkers 7 gate is enough pure zealot, sentry or zealot archon u can afford 8 gates . while u probe up lets say for example for an 2 base allin u will be at 3 gates during this time. U add the 5 gates at like around 4 min 30 to 5 min when ur 2 bases are saturated.
the mineral income and the cost lines up perfectl when u warpin from ur 8 gates
Zeaots have 20 seconds warpin cooldown and cost 100 minerals = 8 gates 800 min every 20 sec would be 2400 minerals per minute.
Full 2 base saturation gives u close to 2000 mins per minute and 600 gas so u cannot warpin pure zealots from 8 gate fro example but for zealot archon its perfect for example if u have the tec, otherwise zealot sentry would wwork with the 8 gates.
For pure stalkers 7 gates is enough 6 gate would let you have overmins.
And for the production all the time: u need to produce all the time as toss otherwise you have fast overmins, and yes its a bit of luck or unluck if something happenms when ur warpin cooldown is far away. But usually u check the map see that no drops etc comes then u warpin ur 8 units you have a relativley good chance that way that when something happens ur gateways are alrdy ready, or close ot be ready. But ye its like 50 % of the time that u cannot warpin anything when lets say a nydus pops or 3 medivacsd show up, for that u would need to go overgates like 15 gates for 3 bnase for example but thats too expensive and nobody does that. Still its best to synchronize all ur warpins so like that u warpin all 8 units at the same timing. If you warpin like 4 units 2 times it takes u every 10-13 seconds to warpin units thats tooo often and would conflict wwhit scouting, macro, harass, map presence and army movement.
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Hi, masters player here.
I can’t really give good advice about how Much to practice since I’ve always been a grinder and I think I often play more games than what would be helpful but I can definitely give some tips for improving.
I recently came back to the game after a 2 month long break and my hands just would not do what they used to do so I made a barcode acount to allow me to play some low pressure games where I could focus on mechanics soley. I learned a lot about what holds back a lot of lower league players from this experience and also what holds me back as a player.
I think my number one takeaway is that having good mechanics on its own is powerfull enough to bring any player to a Diamond level. And that I myself vastly overated my “masters level mechanics”.I was able to very quickly reach diamond mmr on my barcode by focusing entirely on macro, I never scouted, I never took vespene gas, and I only built scvs,marines,barracks,supply depots and command centers. Doing this increadibly simple style of play allowed me to really improve my mechanics instead of worrying about builds or scouting, winning or losing I only worried about making units, building supply, expanding fast,and making the right number of barracks. From playing this way in just 2 weeks I was able to bring my apm from 190 back to 250.
I would really recommend if your struggling To improve to try to play as absolutely simple a style as possible and try to perfect your macro. Once you get your macro down than try to work back in build orders, scouting, tactics ect.
Understand that the cornerstone of this game is macro. If you have good fundamentals you will find that your opponents strategy rarely matters up until masters because you can just run them over with a bigger economy and more units. If my opponent counters my all marine strat I don’t care. I just make even more marines and I make them so fast and so effeciently that I can over run the counters.
I think a lot of new players get to wrapped up in the strategy side of the game without having the mechanics to enable their strategy. I can attest from my own grind that up until diamond 1 your strategy realy does not matter. You can win nearly evrey game playing an extremely sub optimal build like I did with only unupgraded marines( no stim, no sheilds, no engi bays, no support units) as long as you absolutely nail your macro.
If you can learn to spend your money, not que units, attack early and often while still spending, and expand aggressively you will get better very quickly.
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On May 11 2019 08:21 DSh1 wrote:
A little bit off topic. But I never found I could continously warp in from 7/8 Gateways on 2 bases. That's always something that irked me about protoss since I used to play Terran, that the continuous prodcution thing seems to be even detrimental as it's not possible to have a large warp in for defense or prism if you produce all the time.
As reference I have on 1 base fully (over) saturared I can support 2 Gateways + Worker production with a little left over (gas, if I produce Stalkers, though could make Sentries, and then have a little minerals left over). And since Warp Gate is faster than Gateway, it should only be 1 base = 2 Gateways + 1 Nexus Worker production.
the 7 or 8 gateways is on the extreme side on 2 bases.
obviously for people who have played before, that puts it at 4 gates on 1 base which is pretty much an all-in.
it's no different for 8 gates on 2 bases, assuming both are max saturation, and it's a zealot charge all-in.
more realistically, it's 5 gates with upgrades and a robo.
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EPT
