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This is a "weird" time for sc2
have you seen the number of people streaming sc2? so high!
This idea that the game should never ever get stale and therefore has to constantly / regularly be patched (while possibly ant frogging to where a would be perfect balance would be)
is
almost here?! almost accepted?
i for one hope that sc2 's survival / betterment is not in both blizzard's and the "community's hands". It has to be "us" telling blizzard what the game needs..
"us" making the tournaments that show the changes required!
Alas that is not happening / catching on really?
From my attic i feel there won't be a day of reckoning, a cataclysm everyone seems to hope for.. .. there will be a slight raise or a slight fall in numbers.. gradually.
Whether blizzard lets it go or re invests even more is very much up for grabs.. no?
Did you see the money twit ch footed for rivals? so high!
This is the crossroads i believe. This (this year) will decide the fate of sc2. maybe it will return to its community or maybe it will fade slowly into oblivion. i don't pretend to know.
Sorry for side rant
+ Show Spoiler [spoilered for good behavior] +Also almost forgot, adding observing with much more exiting camera angles / movements / moves / strategy
would greatly improve sc2 marketshares..
.. and no one is doing that .. whether that be all knowing blizzard itself or
deaf toned drift kins streamers! alike.
It is not acceptable that no one's doing it.. trust me i've been lobbying all of them since day one (all but blizz of course) they think they are above getting outside their comfort zone.. so sad!
i say this because i have been offering to increment that "service" for them for free and that they are all ignoring the HUGE potential for a huge boost in viewership
by
adding immersion to the viewer / game
by dedicating two extra mechanics/ingame observers (one per 1v1 player) to add camera moves
on top of the "only god mode view",
this to better showcase high quality pro games !
with camera moves unseen yet in any esport game <3 sc2 would be the # 1 rts in numbers too
intchalla
Sorry again for rant
hf
rts hype 
![[image loading]](https://www.myabandonware.com/media/screenshots/w/warcraft-orcs-humans-250/warcraft-orcs-humans_23.png)
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A bw cultists thread on sc2 who just come to spit on sc2 pros, nice. You don't play the game anyway so why bothering to come in?
No offense, Bw is amazing blabla, it is such an exceptionnal game he does not need other babysitting than changing the map... But it is not necesseraly the case for others rts you know. I get it is somewhat hard to grasp for some but changes can be necessary. Like in war3, Orc utterly dominated the ud race for 15 years, making this race a joke, too bad, the game had so much potential... The stagnation hits it so much despite some innovation, it was very depressing to see it.
Same goes for BL/infest, golden armada and all the others imbalance stuffs throw at us, I am glad it changed, everyone is.
It is how it is, deal with it.
"Close minded" ppl are the one which apply every bw concept and elements to sc2.
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8751 Posts
If you want to talk and think about balance, you have to consider two things:
(1) How this behavior/mindset/perspective affects your experience with the game
(2) How this behavior affects the balance of the game
I think everyone tries to justify the community's obsession with thinking about everything (tournament results, strategies, play styles, units, build orders, everything) in terms of balance by saying that this ongoing conversation about balance actually contributes to the game being more balanced. That is, they're totally considering the second thing.
But I think the point of this thread is to consider the first thing. Is it healthy to think of so much stuff in terms of balance? Would people enjoy the game more and the community more if we didn't think about balance at all? I think so, yes. I think it's obviously yes. I think this obsession with balance is really unhealthy.
So how much are we hurting ourselves in order to "contribute" to the game's balance? I think we do way more damage to ourselves than we actually contribute to improving the game's balance. There are people employed at Blizzard responsible for balancing the game. Sometimes they need players' feedback (both common players and pros). When they need it, they can ask for it and receive it. But data and the games themselves provide the bulk of information they need to do their jobs. Feedback just enriches the info they already have. And as long as matchups stay within the 45-55% range and tournaments continue to use diverse map pools and the veto system, which enables players to use map selection to mitigate balance issues, then there's no problem.
I think the community conversation on balance could absolutely disappear and future patches would not be any worse at balancing the game at all.
Feeling like you're the victim of an unfair system is not a mindset good for success. If each time you lose, you consider both whether you personally failed or whether the game failed you (it's imbalanced), then you will not enjoy the game as much as you could if you were purely focused on yourself.
So I'd advise everyone to focus purely on themselves and stop questioning the game. The game might be imperfect but you aren't playing it to determine whether it's imperfect; you're playing it to enjoy it and win games. Also face the reality that you thinking and talking about balance is not actually accomplishing anything. So put an end to the rationalization that what you're doing is productive. It's not. It's a vice that you indulge in.
But the other reality is that people are always gonna want to hear about it and there are personalities who make careers based on attracting attention to themselves. So I don't think it's gonna go away. But you as an individual fan or player can choose to create your own environment. I'd advise you to block out as much of the balance talk as you can. Of course, your ladder opponents will still whine about it. And tournament broadcasts will occasionally slip up and allow some balance talk to air. It is inescapable. But you can control most of it.
edit: I am focused on running now as my main hobby and it's a simple fact that running isn't balanced in the sense that some people are much more genetically gifted for running than others. It's like one guy was born as an ultra with +3 upgrades and another guy was born as a probe. It is obviously unfair. But there's no consolation in thinking the guy that just beat you was genetically superior to you. You train and you race and you do the best you can. The mindset of some video game players of trying to be hyper-aware and concerned about whether every time they get bested, was it a fair interaction? It's so toxic and ridiculous from a lot of different perspectives.
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On January 20 2019 05:01 stilt wrote:
A bw cultists thread on sc2 who just come to spit on sc2 pros, nice. You don't play the game anyway so why bothering to come in?
Not remotely true. I've played brood war much less than sc2 in the last 10 years, and I watch it much less too. and I certainly didn't "spit on any pros". I think you completely missed any point I was trying to make.
And Nony, unsurprisingly I think you saw what I was trying to say exactly as I was intending.
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Watching Neuro stream has been a eye opening experience. That dudes mentality is so great for the community. If he loses to something others would consider worse or cheesy play he commends the opponent for using a strategy that won. And its true. There is no proper way to play StarCraft.
Players should approach the meta in a similar fashion. If you keep losing to a specific strategy that you consider imbalanced, try three different approaches next time or downvote the map you think is strongest for that strategy. Chances are in a few months players will have figured out the weaknesses to said imbalanced strategy.
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On January 16 2019 04:32 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2019 04:25 Marl wrote:
broodwar pros went back to broodwar for a reason Because SC2 was too hard
i think they just wanted to play a good game
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I'm sorry but this thread title has been bugging the hell out of me. It's "closed-mindedness", not "closemindedness". Yes, it's a big deal (to me).
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I'm actually really surprised how even pros are sometimes so 1 dimensional in their balance views and their bias towards their own race.
i would never argue against my own race being the strongest if it objectively is at the moment. Zerg players were surprised at terran buffs couple of months ago - and now that terran is acutally doing well again in korea, they are surprised at possible protoss buffs.
It's like people disregard facts and get influenced by their own gameplay, even at highest level, or are of the opinion that "their race is supposed to win if played correctly.
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On January 20 2019 09:49 Achamian wrote:
Watching Neuro stream has been a eye opening experience. That dudes mentality is so great for the community. If he loses to something others would consider worse or cheesy play he commends the opponent for using a strategy that won. And its true. There is no proper way to play StarCraft.
Players should approach the meta in a similar fashion. If you keep losing to a specific strategy that you consider imbalanced, try three different approaches next time or downvote the map you think is strongest for that strategy. Chances are in a few months players will have figured out the weaknesses to said imbalanced strategy.
OR the game is no longer in that specific state of balance by then, which is way more likely considering the approach Blizzard has taken with this game.
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On January 20 2019 21:28 litLikeBic wrote:
I'm sorry but this thread title has been bugging the hell out of me. It's "closed-mindedness", not "closemindedness". Yes, it's a big deal (to me).
lol, yeah. well, can't do anything about it now. maybe a mod will. I can see how that would bug you.
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How this doesn't get deleted ? I though teamliquid bans people for talking about balance ? By the way when i say protoss is broken, because terran mule was nerfed and he gets third nexus when yours didn't even started yet for free everygame, mod say that i am thinking it is broken, while everygame is scv pull in tvp. People like this don't even play this game LOL...
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You have a point travis. but the time of age is different. Now with the internet, you can hear the voice of people. You hear the complains. You even said it yourself. If BW was out now then we would see exactly the same thing.
It's how gaming is today. It's how the internet turned it. Is it a bad thing ? Maybe yes maybe not.
But when you hear stuff like Blizzard kept the skill ceiling too low it's something you hear since WoL. And what do you know... Koreans are still on top of the world. Yes there's Serral but there is noneother. If the skill ceilling was so reduced then why are we still seeing the same names at the top. Where's the new blood ? With the amount of players SC2 had, if the skill ceilling was that low we would see a lot more turn over.
Was Terran OP during the Boxer/iloveoov period. YES ! It's was fucking broken. And no patch arose and suddenly... Zergs were winning all tournaments because some guy just saw what needed to be done.
So yeah... i'm all with you travis but ... Like you said in your post : "you need to see what's strong and what's weak". This is exactly what people are doing with voicing their opinions. The see that if they complain, it changes so why would they not ?
Why would people not play the early game like : "i want this" , "i want that" ? It's what gaming is today. We also have to accept it.
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I took the time, and read every comment on this thread. I must say, for my two cents, the conversation has been great up to this point. No shots have been taken at anyone (for the most part) and everyone is trying to stay objective in their thoughts and feelings. The OP did a great job framing his thought process and why he felt the way he did. That being said, we all have to love this game to be reading threads like this years after the original release of the game. Balance, is irrelevant for 99% of us. We love to discuss it because we all feel we are right in our feelings and we get those feelings ratified by others who play the same race and feel they are "weak". At the end of the day, every single one of us has to deal with the cards we have with the race we choose to play with that particular day. No matchup is broken at this point, not even close. Could some things be better, i guess so. Could some things be worse, absolutely! But that does not change our ability to enjoy the game we love to play. The skill ceiling of this game is higher than almost any other game i have seen in recent memory. Therefore, if you win or lose a game it is YOUR fault, not the game, not blizzard, you. This is not meant to attack anyone, this post by myself is meant to show that everything revolves on how you look at the game through your own eyes. If you choose to blame outside factors, you will always be angry about what happens even blizzard does exactly what you want them to do. We have to control only what we CAN control, and that is how we play, how we control, and the decision we make in each individual game. Im sure ill get a lot of hate for this post, but i hope a few people can get something positive from this. Good luck my friends, we are all in this together to get better.
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You are all cucks, only demuslim has balls here. It seem like these players who posting don't even play the game.
You know nothing, free will is illusion you are just slaves, travis probably average idiot with iq 100 posting like.
Geez you are all delusional you don't understand nothing, you are stupid as shit....
Go look to hearh of the swarm tvp, if protoss choose to build 8 gates and 2 forge he will be on 2 base, fact he can get all tech upgrades production and third it is broken and yes there is no way around this, u just dumb idiots retards...
Tired of this shit, dumb people......
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On January 20 2019 07:05 NonY wrote:
If you want to talk and think about balance, you have to consider two things:
(1) How this behavior/mindset/perspective affects your experience with the game
I think the issue can be thought of from the opposite perspective too, how the game affects your behavior and makes you feel.
Balance is inextricably linked to game design. Poorly balanced interactions cause frustration, but they are often rooted in poor game design in Starcraft 2, and instead of just simply tweaking some unit stats to achieve balance, the game often requires wholesale changes because instead of following modern game design tenets, Browder and Kim choose to buck them. And thus a lack of counterplay is often the issue in Starcraft 2, and counterplay is such an important game design tenet in modern game design. League of Legends is built around it.
Let's think about the 1-1-1 in WOL PvT for a moment. There was a lack of counterplay opportunities for Protoss, so the build dominated for a long stretch of time. In fact, Photon Overcharge had 13 range initially in HOTS to counter Siege Tanks.
The lack of counterplay led to a situation where the strategy was considered imbalanced, and thus people got frustrated. I think it is important that people voice their frustration with things that are imbalanced because we have a shared experience with this game. No one is special, we all feel similar things in similar situations. And when enough people raise their voice, the chances of something changing increases. Ignoring that and basing design decisions purely on data is foolish, because frustration from imbalances is almost always a shared experience. And often, a win rate or whatever can be 50/50, but there are poorly design game mechanics cause players frustration that, if not addressed, can lead to the player base dwindling.
I also take offense to the idea that it is a vice to indulge in analyzing balance. Yes, the game will likely always imbalanced and we can't directly control it, but the discussions can be informative and instructive, where people learn. And we aren't achieving anything more or less with our life playing than we are analyzing the game, provided we find the analysis enjoyable as I do and learn from it.
Of course, some people can be very toxic too and they have to be ignored, just some people can also be toxic while playing the game and have to be ignored... and it doesn't damn the game, why should it damn balance discussions? There will always be bad apples who rage.
The fact is, some people can discuss balance without getting toxic, and it isn't a negative environment for them. I can separate my feelings on balance from the times I play the game, and thrive on challenges (I enjoyed trying to defeat the 1-1-1 as a Protoss player). But I also see myself as a victim of nothing, I am always a survivor.
So if this isn't a good environment for you, leave. But don't tell me it is a bad environment for me because you can't participate in it without negative feelings.
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On January 20 2019 22:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2019 21:28 litLikeBic wrote:
I'm sorry but this thread title has been bugging the hell out of me. It's "closed-mindedness", not "closemindedness". Yes, it's a big deal (to me). lol, yeah. well, can't do anything about it now. maybe a mod will. I can see how that would bug you.
No worries, but I see a smartarse mod added the hyphen but neglected to change "close" to "closed".
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One of the really few long posts that I fully read and enjoyed. Agree 100% but think it's too late to change something in SC2, they went too far with it, especially with LotV expansion.
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On January 21 2019 13:16 kronos500 wrote:
You are all cucks, only demuslim has balls here. It seem like these players who posting don't even play the game.
You know nothing, free will is illusion you are just slaves, travis probably average idiot with iq 100 posting like.
Geez you are all delusional you don't understand nothing, you are stupid as shit....
Go look to hearh of the swarm tvp, if protoss choose to build 8 gates and 2 forge he will be on 2 base, fact he can get all tech upgrades production and third it is broken and yes there is no way around this, u just dumb idiots retards...
Tired of this shit, dumb people......
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Avilo? That' you ?
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On January 16 2019 02:09 travis wrote:
There is nothing inherently wrong with Terran having to open up with hyperaggressive openings vs Protoss, for example. Maybe that's how the game should be played!
This way of thinking is wrong and hurting the game.
When you want a game to be balanced around one or two playstyles and just say "maybe this is how they want us to play" then you are losing diversity, the most important part of the game. Diversity is even more imporatant than balance.
Do you want to see a lot of different game with struggeling terrans that at least try something different every game or do you want to see the perfectly balanced game with every race having one strategy?
What if building a spawning pool ended the game right away with 50% winrate?
The game would be perfectly balanced, you would see the same zerg game every game. Is that what you want?
Diversity in gameplay is more important than balance, stop shutting down calls for diversity with close mindedness of "maybe they want us to".
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