EPTInterview with SC2's lead designers: "We want to bring bac…
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dummy1
420 Posts
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MarcDaKind
7 Posts
I at least find them impossible to chase down, which is why they are so frustrating to play against. I feel like i can't punish their locust down time. | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
On November 14 2018 12:52 Scarlett` wrote: without swarmhosts its too hard to play against people who just camp to 2/1 mech and push with no interaction all game I agree that mech could potentially become too strong vs zerg, if you would only remove swarmhosts and be done with it. But swarmhosts on the other hand are too strong as well and shut down mech too efficient. My point is that swarmhosts are a terrible unit from a design perspective. If you look at how swarmhosts work, its just not fun, not interesting. I know someone may feel different, but thats just my subjective opinion. In my opinion it would be the best to either remove or redesign the unit so that both players have more options to actually interact with it in a way that feels fair. If zerg players then struggle vs mech, you could still adjust numbers. You can always tweak things. Balance is a numbers game. I'm convinced that there is no need to have such a weird ridiculous unit in the game. If zerg struggles without or with a changed swarmhosts, then give zerg compensation in other areas. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
On November 14 2018 03:08 Jimmon wrote: WHO IS COMING BACK THOUGH THAT'S AMERICAN?!?!?! Idra | ||
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omop
45 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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polpot
3002 Posts
On November 15 2018 00:37 MarcDaKind wrote: I think the biggest problem with Swarm Hosts is that they are to fast, they are faster than Reapers on creep (5.37 vs 5.25)! Helions (and boosted Medivacs) are the only Terran unit that can catch up to them which is ridiculous, considering that they do no damage to them. Reduce their speed a small amount so the new Cyclone and Speed Banshees can chase them, which is already hard vs Hydra. I at least find them impossible to chase down, which is why they are so frustrating to play against. I feel like i can't punish their locust down time. one post account who support avilo, how cute! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17137 Posts
On November 15 2018 00:37 MarcDaKind wrote: I think the biggest problem with Swarm Hosts is that they are to fast, they are faster than Reapers on creep (5.37 vs 5.25)! Helions (and boosted Medivacs) are the only Terran unit that can catch up to them which is ridiculous, considering that they do no damage to them. Reduce their speed a small amount so the new Cyclone and Speed Banshees can chase them, which is already hard vs Hydra. I at least find them impossible to chase down, which is why they are so frustrating to play against. I feel like i can't punish their locust down time. this is a very good first post! and an anti-swarmhost post by a terran player. "things that make you go hmmmm...." anyhow, i think we need to wait and see if the slower creep growing effectively nerfs the Swarmhost. If it does not do so i then agree that a small decrease in the swarmhosts speed on creep is a good nerf with which to experiment. its supposed to be a siege unit after all. | ||
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MarcDaKind
7 Posts
On November 15 2018 02:45 polpot wrote: one post account who support avilo, how cute! Hey, I dont really care for Avilo, little to toxic for my taste. But I still think the SH is to fast, just my opinion though. There always has to be a first post when you are new to a forum. Got here when I saw this post on reddit, and use the wiki all the time when theory crafting. | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
Zerg should feel lucky that their units permit them to be dynamic, active, and siege/defend into the lategame with several different tech options. Just comparing sc2 balance to bw accentuates the issues. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On November 15 2018 06:43 Rodya wrote: Terran have always been a slower more campy race since BW. The reason is that their units are slower and less dynamic. The reason for that is lore related, loosely speaking. Terran defend and slowly inch out while upgrading their insanely strong immobile mech army. Vultures/hellions are used to deal damage and distract (as well as soak damage) while the main mech army prepares to end the game. Bio terran is more active because they are faster. Zerg should feel lucky that their units permit them to be dynamic, active, and siege/defend into the lategame with several different tech options. Just comparing sc2 balance to bw accentuates the issues. Terran isn't especially campy in SC2, first obviously because bio has been the more popular meta in SC2 and is a resolutely aggressive play style and I feel that libs did an ok job at making it possible to transition from bio into the late game. And it's quite possible in SC2 to play aggressive mech composition (the good old 160 supply push for example), it's usually not the best but you can do it. Protoss is, and has almost always been, the campy/defensive race in SC2, they are the one that are the most fragile in the early game and that scale up the best with patient defensive play against aggressive opponent. Sc2 mech play is defensive and slow but it's not really a matter of surviving until your mech army is ready for the late game more about getting to the late game in a dominant position and play from there. It's pretty rare that you kill a mech player before he has a fourth, it can happen of course, but usually it's more a game of slowing the mech player down while yourself transitioning into the late game faster (viper-Blord-Tempest-BC-Ranged libs...) and winning there. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On November 15 2018 07:06 Nakajin wrote: Terran isn't especially campy in SC2, first obviously because bio has been the more popular meta in SC2 and is a resolutely aggressive play style and I feel that libs did an ok job at making it possible to transition from bio into the late game. And it's quite possible in SC2 to play aggressive mech composition (the good old 160 supply push for example), it's usually not the best but you can do it. Protoss is, and has almost always been, the campy/defensive race in SC2, they are the one that are the most fragile in the early game and that scale up the best with patient defensive play against aggressive opponent. Sc2 mech play is defensive and slow but it's not really a matter of surviving until your mech army is ready for the late game more about getting to the late game in a dominant position and play from there. It's pretty rare that you kill a mech player before he has a fourth, it can happen of course, but usually it's more a game of slowing the mech player down while yourself transitioning into the late game faster (viper-Blord-Tempest-BC-Ranged libs...) and winning there. Rodya's entire post is some incoherently made attempt at drawing a parallel between 2 diametrically diffeerent races in 2 diametrically different games. While also saying that "the issues" (whatever they seem to be), can be seen while comparing the balance of Starcraft 2 to the balance of a game where there was a clear hierarchy of Terran > Zerg > Protoss for over a decade. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On November 15 2018 01:13 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I agree that mech could potentially become too strong vs zerg, if you would only remove swarmhosts and be done with it. But swarmhosts on the other hand are too strong as well and shut down mech too efficient. My point is that swarmhosts are a terrible unit from a design perspective. If you look at how swarmhosts work, its just not fun, not interesting. I know someone may feel different, but thats just my subjective opinion. In my opinion it would be the best to either remove or redesign the unit so that both players have more options to actually interact with it in a way that feels fair. If zerg players then struggle vs mech, you could still adjust numbers. You can always tweak things. Balance is a numbers game. I'm convinced that there is no need to have such a weird ridiculous unit in the game. If zerg struggles without or with a changed swarmhosts, then give zerg compensation in other areas. LOL its not like pre-hive zerg have no options to slow down ground mech reaching thier peak and death push... swarm hosts option is just cheap,less effort and guarantee a hive stage along with one billion naturals behind i would love to see a non-swarm host zerg race get carted by 200 supply death push and one billion yummy delicious whine topics and then we can start discuss how to nerf ground mech but that toxic unit named swarm host needs to GO but i hardly believe zeg players can't figure out because otherwise they all should 've switched to terran mech in HOTS because zeg is unplayable... | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On November 15 2018 07:06 Nakajin wrote: Terran isn't especially campy in SC2, first obviously because bio has been the more popular meta in SC2 and is a resolutely aggressive play style and I feel that libs did an ok job at making it possible to transition from bio into the late game. And it's quite possible in SC2 to play aggressive mech composition (the good old 160 supply push for example), it's usually not the best but you can do it. Protoss is, and has almost always been, the campy/defensive race in SC2, they are the one that are the most fragile in the early game and that scale up the best with patient defensive play against aggressive opponent. Sc2 mech play is defensive and slow but it's not really a matter of surviving until your mech army is ready for the late game more about getting to the late game in a dominant position and play from there. It's pretty rare that you kill a mech player before he has a fourth, it can happen of course, but usually it's more a game of slowing the mech player down while yourself transitioning into the late game faster (viper-Blord-Tempest-BC-Ranged libs...) and winning there. yeah terran need to move out at some point eventually ...no one is gonna let a fuck ton of tanks and hellbats sitting in thier base for years when all of those bloodlords and golden armadas are about to knock thier ass | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States721 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On November 15 2018 07:06 Nakajin wrote: Terran isn't especially campy in SC2, first obviously because bio has been the more popular meta in SC2 and is a resolutely aggressive play style and I feel that libs did an ok job at making it possible to transition from bio into the late game. And it's quite possible in SC2 to play aggressive mech composition (the good old 160 supply push for example), it's usually not the best but you can do it. Protoss is, and has almost always been, the campy/defensive race in SC2, they are the one that are the most fragile in the early game and that scale up the best with patient defensive play against aggressive opponent. Sc2 mech play is defensive and slow but it's not really a matter of surviving until your mech army is ready for the late game more about getting to the late game in a dominant position and play from there. It's pretty rare that you kill a mech player before he has a fourth, it can happen of course, but usually it's more a game of slowing the mech player down while yourself transitioning into the late game faster (viper-Blord-Tempest-BC-Ranged libs...) and winning there. This is true. Mech (outside of the mass Raven eras) has always been a timingpush-based composition and not a turtle-to-lategame composition. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
On November 15 2018 00:37 MarcDaKind wrote: I think the biggest problem with Swarm Hosts is that they are to fast, they are faster than Reapers on creep (5.37 vs 5.25)! Helions (and boosted Medivacs) are the only Terran unit that can catch up to them which is ridiculous, considering that they do no damage to them. Reduce their speed a small amount so the new Cyclone and Speed Banshees can chase them, which is already hard vs Hydra. I at least find them impossible to chase down, which is why they are so frustrating to play against. I feel like i can't punish their locust down time. Your speed numbers are wrong. Swarm Hosts move at 4.095 on creep, which is considerably slower than stim bio and the new-old Cyclone. | ||
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MarcDaKind
7 Posts
On November 15 2018 08:05 Athenau wrote: Your speed numbers are wrong. Swarm Hosts move at 4.095 on creep, which is considerably slower than stim bio and the new-old Cyclone. Then the information on the wiki is outdated:  Swarm Host (Legacy of the Void)But if I do the math, (1.3 * 3.15 = 4.095) you should be correct. Good news I guess. They do feel super hard to chase down though, but the new patch might help with that! | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On November 14 2018 03:08 Jimmon wrote: WHO IS COMING BACK THOUGH THAT'S AMERICAN?!?!?! Select comes to the top of my mind, I wonder if he a naturalized American citizen because Korea doesnt allow duel citizenship. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On November 14 2018 03:08 Jimmon wrote: WHO IS COMING BACK THOUGH THAT'S AMERICAN?!?!?! Probably Stephano, the greatest NA player to have ever lived. | ||
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