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On August 06 2018 03:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:46 Durnuu wrote:On August 06 2018 02:43 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:39 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 02:21 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:55 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 01:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:08 Fango wrote:
Is there a case for Stats being a kong now? No I dunno. He's lost to literally everyone who isn't known for choking in finals. So there's only people who are kongs and people who aren't kongs and there's literally nothing in-between? On August 06 2018 02:13 Fango wrote:
And it's literally liquipedia's fault that people call this a GSL.. Afreeca literally called Inno's GSL vs the World win a GSL title last year so don't blame Liquipedia. Did they? Well They didn't give him a pin and when he loads into GSL games he has 3 gold medals under his name. So I'm suprised at that, although they likely put GSL on every event to attract attention anyway. As far as Kongs go, I just think it's funny how Stats has a similar number of second places/ro4 finishes to guys like soO and Dark. With his only actual wins being when he meets them in finals and they characteristically underperformed. Stats has less 2nd places in his entire career than soO has just in GSL. And if we start using the term Kong this loosely we may as well start with sOs and his stellar 0/2 record in GSL finals. How many losses to do need? People called MKP, Dream, ByuL etc kongs. Stats has 5 losses and 10 ro4 finishes. A lot of them being matches he was favoured to win. I just feel like if Stats didn't win those finals against soO and Dark (the pair who choke almost every time including those against Stats), he'd be well established as a kong. The original definition of a Kong is someone who gets 2nd places in Starleagues but can win weekend tournaments (AKA YellOw). Stats absolutely doesn't fit this definition, not one bit. Dream and ByuL didn't win a single tournament, only 2nd places, and MarineKing won weekenders while getting 2nd places in GSL. They fit a lot better. Yeah but in sc2 starleagues mean a bit less and weekenders mean a lot more. I was just saying it's quite funny that Stats has lost to everyone other than soO and Dark, who are the biggest kongs we have right now. If he didn't beat the guys who choke more than anyone else in sc2, he'd be well known as a kong by now.
Hum the thing is I don't really feel like Stats play particularly bad in final, the finals he lost were the final he was suppose to. (maybe with the exception of Katowice against TY, but he still played a great series) He lost premier title to a red hot Maru, INno when he was killing every toss and Dark when he was dominant, and now against Seral but he gave him by far the best opposition of the tournament. Sure you could say he lost some final but it's not really that he can't win them it's more that it happen that his best wasn't enough to win.
In opposition after his first 2 gsl loss SoO has played far bellow his actual level in every finals he's been in (you could say he also choke his final against Zest)
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On August 06 2018 03:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 02:46 Durnuu wrote:On August 06 2018 02:43 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:39 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 02:21 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:55 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 01:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:08 Fango wrote:
Is there a case for Stats being a kong now? No I dunno. He's lost to literally everyone who isn't known for choking in finals. So there's only people who are kongs and people who aren't kongs and there's literally nothing in-between? On August 06 2018 02:13 Fango wrote:
And it's literally liquipedia's fault that people call this a GSL.. Afreeca literally called Inno's GSL vs the World win a GSL title last year so don't blame Liquipedia. Did they? Well They didn't give him a pin and when he loads into GSL games he has 3 gold medals under his name. So I'm suprised at that, although they likely put GSL on every event to attract attention anyway. As far as Kongs go, I just think it's funny how Stats has a similar number of second places/ro4 finishes to guys like soO and Dark. With his only actual wins being when he meets them in finals and they characteristically underperformed. Stats has less 2nd places in his entire career than soO has just in GSL. And if we start using the term Kong this loosely we may as well start with sOs and his stellar 0/2 record in GSL finals. How many losses to do need? People called MKP, Dream, ByuL etc kongs. Stats has 5 losses and 10 ro4 finishes. A lot of them being matches he was favoured to win. I just feel like if Stats didn't win those finals against soO and Dark (the pair who choke almost every time including those against Stats), he'd be well established as a kong. The original definition of a Kong is someone who gets 2nd places in Starleagues but can win weekend tournaments (AKA YellOw). Stats absolutely doesn't fit this definition, not one bit. Dream and ByuL didn't win a single tournament, only 2nd places, and MarineKing won weekenders while getting 2nd places in GSL. They fit a lot better. Yeah but in sc2 starleagues mean a bit less and weekenders mean a lot more. I was just saying it's quite funny that Stats has lost to everyone other than soO and Dark, who are the biggest kongs we have right now. If he didn't beat the guys who choke more than anyone else in sc2, he'd be well known as a kong by now.
But he did beat those guys and thus isn't a kong.
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That 360 was insane to watch. Stats' army just walks in, nothing on sight, then BAM, ITS A TRAP.
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Greatest foreign player ever in SC1 and SC2
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Awesome tournament and awesome performamce by Serral!! GG!
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Stats choked/stroked/tilted at some point during game 6. He was ahead in tech and upgrades, had a shit ton of storms vs ling/bane/hydra, similar supply, just decently ahead overall, then out of nowhere he started floating 1k+ minerals up to 2k and a shit ton of gas too, also, before people say that Serral was putting on pressure, Stats started floating and derping at the 7 minute mark, prior to any shit serral did, he was also losing shit left and right without using them, like templars still with storm to cast.
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On August 06 2018 04:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 03:23 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:46 Durnuu wrote:On August 06 2018 02:43 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:39 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 02:21 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:55 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 01:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:08 Fango wrote:
Is there a case for Stats being a kong now? No I dunno. He's lost to literally everyone who isn't known for choking in finals. So there's only people who are kongs and people who aren't kongs and there's literally nothing in-between? On August 06 2018 02:13 Fango wrote:
And it's literally liquipedia's fault that people call this a GSL.. Afreeca literally called Inno's GSL vs the World win a GSL title last year so don't blame Liquipedia. Did they? Well They didn't give him a pin and when he loads into GSL games he has 3 gold medals under his name. So I'm suprised at that, although they likely put GSL on every event to attract attention anyway. As far as Kongs go, I just think it's funny how Stats has a similar number of second places/ro4 finishes to guys like soO and Dark. With his only actual wins being when he meets them in finals and they characteristically underperformed. Stats has less 2nd places in his entire career than soO has just in GSL. And if we start using the term Kong this loosely we may as well start with sOs and his stellar 0/2 record in GSL finals. How many losses to do need? People called MKP, Dream, ByuL etc kongs. Stats has 5 losses and 10 ro4 finishes. A lot of them being matches he was favoured to win. I just feel like if Stats didn't win those finals against soO and Dark (the pair who choke almost every time including those against Stats), he'd be well established as a kong. The original definition of a Kong is someone who gets 2nd places in Starleagues but can win weekend tournaments (AKA YellOw). Stats absolutely doesn't fit this definition, not one bit. Dream and ByuL didn't win a single tournament, only 2nd places, and MarineKing won weekenders while getting 2nd places in GSL. They fit a lot better. Yeah but in sc2 starleagues mean a bit less and weekenders mean a lot more. I was just saying it's quite funny that Stats has lost to everyone other than soO and Dark, who are the biggest kongs we have right now. If he didn't beat the guys who choke more than anyone else in sc2, he'd be well known as a kong by now. But he did beat those guys and thus isn't a kong.
Depends if you count beating soO and Dark as a win (ok I'm joking here). But Stats still has a record in failing to win without his opponents choking. And I would say he underperforms in finals a lot. Obviously not to the extent of someone like soO.
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On August 06 2018 04:04 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 03:23 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:46 Durnuu wrote:On August 06 2018 02:43 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:39 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 02:21 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 02:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:55 Fango wrote:On August 06 2018 01:13 Elentos wrote:On August 06 2018 01:08 Fango wrote:
Is there a case for Stats being a kong now? No I dunno. He's lost to literally everyone who isn't known for choking in finals. So there's only people who are kongs and people who aren't kongs and there's literally nothing in-between? On August 06 2018 02:13 Fango wrote:
And it's literally liquipedia's fault that people call this a GSL.. Afreeca literally called Inno's GSL vs the World win a GSL title last year so don't blame Liquipedia. Did they? Well They didn't give him a pin and when he loads into GSL games he has 3 gold medals under his name. So I'm suprised at that, although they likely put GSL on every event to attract attention anyway. As far as Kongs go, I just think it's funny how Stats has a similar number of second places/ro4 finishes to guys like soO and Dark. With his only actual wins being when he meets them in finals and they characteristically underperformed. Stats has less 2nd places in his entire career than soO has just in GSL. And if we start using the term Kong this loosely we may as well start with sOs and his stellar 0/2 record in GSL finals. How many losses to do need? People called MKP, Dream, ByuL etc kongs. Stats has 5 losses and 10 ro4 finishes. A lot of them being matches he was favoured to win. I just feel like if Stats didn't win those finals against soO and Dark (the pair who choke almost every time including those against Stats), he'd be well established as a kong. The original definition of a Kong is someone who gets 2nd places in Starleagues but can win weekend tournaments (AKA YellOw). Stats absolutely doesn't fit this definition, not one bit. Dream and ByuL didn't win a single tournament, only 2nd places, and MarineKing won weekenders while getting 2nd places in GSL. They fit a lot better. Yeah but in sc2 starleagues mean a bit less and weekenders mean a lot more. I was just saying it's quite funny that Stats has lost to everyone other than soO and Dark, who are the biggest kongs we have right now. If he didn't beat the guys who choke more than anyone else in sc2, he'd be well known as a kong by now. Hum the thing is I don't really feel like Stats play particularly bad in final, the finals he lost were the final he was suppose to. (maybe with the exception of Katowice against TY, but he still played a great series) He lost premier title to a red hot Maru, INno when he was killing every toss and Dark when he was dominant, and now against Seral but he gave him by far the best opposition of the tournament. Sure you could say he lost some final but it's not really that he can't win them it's more that it happen that his best wasn't enough to win. In opposition after his first 2 gsl loss SoO has played far bellow his actual level in every finals he's been in (you could say he also choke his final against Zest)
He clearly underperforms in finals. He played badly against Maru in the final, even if Maru was hot. He got ruined by INno with admittedly imba tank pushes, but beat him in GSL not long after. Against TY he played well until game 7, and here against Serral he was a bit clueless at the end. Maybe unlucky in not scouting the allin, but I feel like he should have scouted it.
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Underperforming in finals doesn't make you a kong.
Stats has so many finals losses because he makes a lot of finals. But he's won on the big stage plenty of times - more than enough to make him not a kong.
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On August 06 2018 04:48 Bagration wrote:
Greatest foreign player ever in SC1 and SC2
What? Please don't bring SC1 into this. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Ok I get the point. But he still only beats kongs. I guess there can only be so many people you call a kong for that reason.
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On August 06 2018 07:59 Fango wrote:
Ok I get the point. But he still only beats kongs. I guess there can only be so many people you call a kong for that reason.
Which makes him the anti kong.
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GGs
I noticed how Serral uses the mini map (watch is eyes), when the player cams were operating 1/4s and semis it looked like he was managing his army extensively via the mini map?, i.e. setting up those awesome flanks and counters, interesting .... Creep spread, Ove placement and ling scouts are probably very important when you spend so much time looking at the MM...
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nGGZa6Q.png)
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Kinda crazy to see how well he played. Stats did make a lot of mistakes with the oracle though, very strange to see a top protoss losing them so easily.
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On August 06 2018 09:07 Civ.Fan wrote:
GGs
I noticed how Serral uses the mini map (watch is eyes), when the player cams were operating 1/4s and semis it looked like he was managing his army extensively via the mini map?, i.e. setting up those awesome flanks and counters, interesting .... Creep spread, Ove placement and ling scouts are probably very important when you spend so much time looking at the MM...
Yeah. He seems have great general map presence thank to this and scrolling around a lot with the middle mouse button.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/250000593
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Wow nice Serral, foreign bonjwa
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Is there a place to watch VODs of the series? Work has prevented me from watching the series and afreeca hasn't had it on youtube to watch. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
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WCS
