EPT
Multiple Building Selection - Page 16
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Fuu
198 Posts
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Tiku
18 Posts
On May 24 2007 18:44 MyLostTemple wrote: Look here's my song it's called PvT on Longinus 1 gate goon range into expo followed by 3 gate and robo : 0p0p0pbp0p0pbg0p0p ba0p0pby0pbp0p0p4d 0pbn0pbp4d0pbgbg0p 0pvr0p4d5d6d0p9pvo That's quite a beautiful song you have there, and you still get to play like that with an improved interface. You just have to adjust it, and you actually will have enough hotkeys to continue playing it later in the game when you have more buildings. Here's how your beginning build order would change with MBS: 0p0p0pbp0p0pbg0p0p ba0p0pby0pbp0p0p4d 0pbn0pbp4d0pbgbg0p 0pvr0p4ddd0ppvo What I hope is that with a new improved interface we will see more composers, and less people playing other people's notes | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
You add things like mass selection and mass macro to the game, you add what are called "hacks" right now. They give players incredible help, and narrow huge skill gaps. Whats makes this game so competitive and brilliant is the skill it takes. Pushing hotkeys over and over sounds mindless, but the ability to multitask while keeping tabs on 5 bases is what makes starcraft competitive. (and yea that post back there was awesome) | ||
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d00m2k
United States12 Posts
1) You can only select 1 building at a time 2) You can only select 1 unit at a time 3) Workers DO NOT keep mining after you set them to mine. You must tell them to mine after each time they bring resources to commmand center This is what Starcraft 2 should look like: pure skill - | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27118 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
Wow mani you are so fast! | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
<3 tasteless! ^_^ | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
that would be featured threads ASAP | ||
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On May 24 2007 22:28 Tiku wrote: That's quite a beautiful song you have there, and you still get to play like that with an improved interface. You just have to adjust it, and you actually will have enough hotkeys to continue playing it later in the game when you have more buildings. Here's how your beginning build order would change with MBS: 0p0p0pbp0p0pbg0p0p ba0p0pby0pbp0p0p4d 0pbn0pbp4d0pbgbg0p 0pvr0p4ddd0ppvo What I hope is that with a new improved interface we will see more composers, and less people playing other people's notes Interesting... did they say they were going to do this? i have been moving this past week and starting a new job. I really have not been up to date with sc2 until today, i don't remember reading that anywhere. I'll have to check tomorrow because i have to wake up for work soon and i need my sleep. But i agree with you. There is nothing worse than stealing from another artist and calling it your own. But even stealing in Starcraft is so difficult. The ones who tried hardest to steal are probably the ones who are tricked most easily. Becuase while they stole, they could probably not understand. This is for sure. But with an improved vehicle that leads to more new patterns, more possibilities, more new notes and chords to play, we will see the birth of a new and revolutionary RTS. If something like this is the case with Starcraft 2 perhaps we will see even more genera's of music (or in other words, styles of RTS play like turtling, rushing, pushing etc) each with it's own unique yet complex notes to be played. For those you who don't understand what I'm saying, I'm going to say it again. This is how a foreigner (or at least the bad ones in my opinion) sees starcraft: they always look at the monitor and study the players brains. but they forgot that there's something in between the screen and the monitor. It's where your not looking... it's your hands. If your reading this right now just look at your keyboard. There's a beautiful instrument infront of you that so many forigner starcraft players were too lazy or stupid to utilize. Instead they remembered only half the the hot keys. Or only remembered the hot keys for the units they liked to build. Or used the hot key at the start of the game. Or only use the hot keys that were on a certian location on the keyboard because they were too afraid to move outside their comfort zone. Don't you realize how much more incredible this game is once you've mastered the method for inputting the commands? Then you even have more time to think about strategy. Dosn't that sound strange?... Have you ever been out massed while you were frantically using two fingers on the keyboard (like a newb) to play or clicking on buildings that had hotkeys next to them? What if you just looked hard enough till you saw the code. Wow... I bet you'd feel like fucking neo from the matrix. Those agents wouldn't look so hard to beat after all... You'd probably be able to beat so many of them (oh and matrix two and three sucked by the way). Those of you who hadn't taken the time to figure this out after ten years... my god... again... I'm so sorry. This game could have been so much better for you. Yet you loved it anyways. Look into this video above, only pretend your not seeing notes that are prewritten. Instead pretend your seeing a fucking war. A crazy war where your playing a different song to win. Your playing against someone else's song. Who's music will be better!? It will be music that was smarter faster and more moving. do you see his hands go? my brother and me played this game when we were children in an arcade next to our mothers house. now imagine instead of that turn table that your playing is your mouse instead. your other hand can only tap the keys. Look back at the screen and imagine your playing starcraft. Only instead of seeing all the keys you need to press on the screen, you have to logically figure out the notes for your next move by thinking about the music your opponent is playing. Only it gets harder. You can lie to him about what song your playing, trick him, mess him up in the middle of a solo. You can do so many things. Those incredible Korean progamers. They see it, they mastered it so that they could BEGIN to master the game. And that's how you play starcraft. Not sitting back like some lazy newb who likes to thoerize about this game while crying because he was too lazy to use a keyboard. Oh.. and fuck everyone comparing great generals quotes to starcraft 2. There are so many generals who were simply fat assholes who owned large armies that they sent out for the purpose of greed. Maybe they would have liked BGH  I don't want to just be a general. i want to be the soliders... the intelligence... the fucking buildings producing the units. I want to be everything.look... this isn't the 'secret' to starcraft, this is just the first step everyone should be using so that this game isn't a clusterfuck of clicks while you aren't looking at the map or thinking about strategy. Koreans learned it first because so much money was at stake. I personally believe this logic is in every video game out there as long as logic can be used to win. But nothing like this is comparable to the logic we see used in starcraft. I'm almost angry I've even told you all this in my first post. I came home from work to see that there were tons of "Starcraft" players who didn't even understand how their favorite game worked. Prehaps we let our biggest secrets out when are the most upset. But a new game is coming and we must pave the proper road. Now you can see the wheels that move the warmachine. Perhaps now you can learn how to play. | ||
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ggfobster
United States298 Posts
On May 24 2007 18:44 MyLostTemple wrote: Blizzard sure as fuck didn't understand Starcraft either because they were too busy adding enuf random shit to warcraft 3 to turn it into a fucking gambling game that should be played in casinos. lol, so so true. I think people give Blizzard too much credit with Wc3. It's such a mess of a game. I certainly hope that Sc2 is just as good as Sc1 or better. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 25 2007 02:05 MyLostTemple wrote: Interesting... did they say they were going to do this? i have been moving this past week and starting a new job. I really have not been up to date with sc2 until today, i don't remember reading that anywhere. I'll have to check tomorrow because i have to wake up for work soon and i need my sleep. But i agree with you. There is nothing worse than stealing from another artist and calling it your own. But even stealing in Starcraft is so difficult. The ones who tried hardest to steal are probably the ones who are tricked most easily. Becuase while they stole, they could probably not understand. This is for sure. But with an improved vehicle that leads to more new patterns, more possibilities, more new notes and chords to play, we will see the birth of a new and revolutionary RTS. If something like this is the case with Starcraft 2 perhaps we will see even more genera's of music (or in other words, styles of RTS play like turtling, rushing, pushing etc) each with it's own unique yet complex notes to be played. For those you who don't understand what I'm saying, I'm going to say it again. This is how a foreigner (or at least the bad ones in my opinion) sees starcraft: they always look at the monitor and study the players brains. but they forgot that there's something in between the screen and the monitor. It's where your not looking... it's your hands. If your reading this right now just look at your keyboard. There's a beautiful instrument infront of you that so many forigner starcraft players were too lazy or stupid to utilize. Instead they remembered only half the the hot keys. Or only remembered the hot keys for the units they liked to build. Or used the hot key at the start of the game. Or only use the hot keys that were on a certian location on the keyboard because they were too afraid to move outside their comfort zone. Don't you realize how much more incredible this game is once you've mastered the method for inputting the commands? Then you even have more time to think about strategy. Dosn't that sound strange?... Have you ever been out massed while you were frantically using two fingers on the keyboard (like a newb) to play or clicking on buildings that had hotkeys next to them? What if you just looked hard enough till you saw the code. Wow... I bet you'd feel like fucking neo from the matrix. Those agents wouldn't look so hard to beat after all... You'd probably be able to beat so many of them (oh and matrix two and three sucked by the way). Those of you who hadn't taken the time to figure this out after ten years... my god... again... I'm so sorry. This game could have been so much better for you. Yet you loved it anyways. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xMxO5SbSp0 Look into this video above, only pretend your not seeing notes that are prewritten. Instead pretend your seeing a fucking war. A crazy war where your playing a different song to win. Your playing against someone else's song. Who's music will be better!? It will be music that was smarter faster and more moving. do you see his hands go? my brother and me played this game when we were children in an arcade next to our mothers house. now imagine instead of that turn table that your playing is your mouse instead. your other hand can only tap the keys. Look back at the screen and imagine your playing starcraft. Only instead of seeing all the keys you need to press on the screen, you have to logically figure out the notes for your next move by thinking about the music your opponent is playing. Only it gets harder. You can lie to him about what song your playing, trick him, mess him up in the middle of a solo. You can do so many things. Those incredible Korean progamers. They see it, they mastered it so that they could BEGIN to master the game. And that's how you play starcraft. Not sitting back like some lazy newb who likes to thoerize about this game while crying because he was too lazy to use a keyboard. look... this isn't the 'secret' to starcraft, this is just the first step everyone should be using so that this game isn't a clusterfuck of clicks while you aren't looking at the map or thinking about strategy. Koreans learned it first because so much money was at stake. I personally believe this logic is in every video game out there as long as logic can be used to win. But nothing like this is comparable to the logic we see used in starcraft. I'm almost angry I've even told you all this in my first post. I came home from work to see that there were tons of "Starcraft" players who didn't even understand how their favorite game worked. Prehaps we let our biggest secrets out when are the most upset. But a new game is coming and we must pave the proper road. Now you can see the wheels that move the warmachine. Perhaps now you can learn how to play. Is it just me that thinks that winning should be about more then just memorizing a build order and executing it fast enough? Besides the keyboard will be alot easier to use in SC2 since they'll probably allow the hotkeys to be fully configurable so you can use the qwert asdg zxcvb setup for all hotkeys. I want more composers and less pure players. | ||
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EmS.Radagast
Israel280 Posts
Your chess example is stupid too... pro chess players play with a timer. did you know that? they don't get to sit on their asses for four days until they have the perfect move. In fact they even have tons of chess openings memorized that allow them to utilize special squares... hmmm that sorta reminds me of a build order! If they run out of time they lose! So in fact they do have a certain amount of APM: the number of times they move their pieces! Starcraft has many things chess doesnt (i love chess, i am not talking shit on chess. I used to play chess competitively when i was younger). Chess is a more hyper focused strategy game that, in a sense, focuses on less elements than Starcraft. In a sense Starcraft uses more features in the brain than chess does. The time limit is meant to tax your mind, not your handspeed. Chess players don't lose by time because they didn't have the handspeed to move the pieces fast enough, it's because they didn't THINK fast enough. Big difference. Look, I don't mind the heavy focus on mechanics in FPS games, it's more suitable there, I just don't think strategy games are supposed to be played like that arcade game in the video you linked here. I guess your views are so fundamentally different than mine on this matter that it's pointless to discuss it any further. We'll agree to disagree, and that's the end of it. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 25 2007 04:11 EmS.Radagast wrote: The time limit is meant to tax your mind, not your handspeed. Chess players don't lose by time because they didn't have the handspeed to move the pieces fast enough, it's because they didn't THINK fast enough. Big difference. Look, I don't mind the heavy focus on mechanics in FPS games, it's more suitable there, I just don't think strategy games are supposed to be played like that arcade game in the video you linked here. I guess your views are so fundamentally different than mine on this matter that it's pointless to discuss it any further. We'll agree to disagree, and that's the end of it. That's because chess is a TURN BASED STRATEGY GAME whereas starcraft is a REAL TIME STRATEGY GAME. Speed + Strategy = good. | ||
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EmS.Radagast
Israel280 Posts
In chess, the opponent makes you waste your time by putting you in a more difficult position. It can be like that in bw: Sometimes, the terran takes the center of the map with a huge mass and proper positioning for the units, and it becomes almost impossible to attack with P no matter how much good you are with the UI. Sometimes someone distracts you with army movements, and storms your worker line with a drop while you're looking elsewhere. That last example is part of what's exciting about playing a strategy game in Real Time. Distraction is less effective in chess because your opponent has plenty of time to examine your maneuvers on the entire board. Handling these situations or making them happen to your enemy, that's what RTS should be about. Mashing buttons is simply the way to operate the UI. I don't see this as the actual 'playing' experience, it's about as interesting as typing in the characters and pressing the arrow keys while I am programming something. In programming, the most important thing is the design (strategy), then the implementation detail (tactics) written in the programming language itself and least of all the actual typing I have to do on the keyboard (UI control). Strategy > tactics > UI control. That's how I would like it to be. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 25 2007 05:02 EmS.Radagast wrote: The Real Time aspect of the game talks about your decisions having to be taken in real time, not about how relatively difficult or easy it is to transfer your decisions to the game through the UI. We already discussed this point: It's either real time or it's not. Making the UI easier/harder to use doesn't make the game itself any less/more Real Time. Also, the skill should be in fighting against the other player, not against a crippled interface!! In chess, the opponent makes you waste your time by putting you in a more difficult position. It can be like that in bw: Sometimes, the terran takes the center of the map with a huge mass and proper positioning for the units, and it becomes almost impossible to attack with P no matter how much good you are with the UI. Sometimes someone distracts you with army movements, and storms your worker line with a drop while you're looking elsewhere. That last example is part of what's exciting about playing a strategy game in Real Time. Distraction is less effective in chess because your opponent has plenty of time to examine your maneuvers on the entire board. Handling these situations or making them happen to your enemy, that's what RTS should be about. Mashing buttons is simply the way to operate the UI. I don't see this as the actual 'playing' experience, it's about as interesting as typing in the characters and pressing the arrow keys while I am programming something. In programming, the most important thing is the design (strategy), then the implementation detail (tactics) written in the programming language itself and least of all the actual typing I have to do on the keyboard (UI control). Strategy > tactics > UI control. That's how I would like it to be. I fully agree with you. More fighting the enemy player and less fighting the UI. Personally I can't imagine how anyone can think getting around inheritly flawed controls is fun. I suppose it's the opposite for alot of other persons on this forum though, they can't imagine it being fun if they don't have to fight with the controls. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On May 24 2007 19:00 funKie wrote: In other words.. Tasteless just raped every fucking whining bitch who ever stepped into any SC2 related thread. Heck, he did all the work for the Anti-SC2 Whining team. Right fucking on. Go get them Tasteless! Did I miss something or he IS one who displeased with SC2 improvements? | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 25 2007 05:41 InRaged wrote: Did I miss something or he IS one who displeased with SC2 improvements? Yup, I think funKie is slightly confused about who is on what side. | ||
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Bully-Cdn
Peru58 Posts
People are acting like what got you hooked on bw was mashing hotkeys and tryin to get high apm, what really gets people about bw is the storyline,the balance between the races and the gameplay. hotkeying all your rax to one button makes the game alot easier for sure, but i just dont think that multiple building selection is going to ruin bw or change the level between noob-average-pro. Especially after hearing what blizzard has been sayin and showing it looks as if this game is gonna require alot of strategy and alot of ingenuity and still require quick hand speed and memorization of the keyboard maybe not in the way it used to be. u can still hotkey your buildings individually if ud like. Heres the thing about starcraft 1 amongst non-pro's: 70% or more of them are considered "noobs" by the starcraft elitists because they either dont play the right maps, dont use hotkeys properly etc. alot of these people play for fun once or twice a week on bnet and love the game as much as tasteless, alot of these players could actually be great players but dont want to play the game maniac style like nada because they know they wont be pros so why bother learning the hard way while they can still have fun. Blizzard cannot and will not ignore this mass, the game wont be tailored for a small amount of people, but it will be balanced and hard to master, noobs are not gonna suddenly be good because of multiple building select and some UI refinements. its like any other competitive sport or game in the world, there are the elite few... and the mass of amateurs.. Take basketball for example: It started as a pretty crude game dominated by giant players, but through out the years with the advent of the shot clock in th 50s and the widening of the lane (from 6 to 12 feet) where big guys would dominate; the game began to become more exciting and high scoring. Later in the 60s Wilt Chamberlain forced them to change the lane from 12 feet to 16 feet because of his domination. Also in the late 90s Handchecking was made illegal, which led many no-name guards to explode the following year, what followed was the nba making several changes in the '00s to make the game easier on offense.. What im trying to say is the in all sports and games there are changes made,like NBA making it easier for kobe (or any guard) to score 81, and like Blizzard making it easier for starcraft players to macro 20 gates.. both rules have their consequences too: NBAs changes opened up the game for more offensive freedom and movement off the ball, defense also became more important, the game is overall more exciting and fastpaced. Hopefully does similar for SC2. just for the record: Boxer is Jordan, Kobe is probably Savior.. lol The people valiantly against multiple building selection dont like change, especially tthe ones who spent many many hours training like pros and getting paid like zeros (no offense intended), and i completely understand that, im sure when Wilt was dunking on fools scorin 50pts a game, and then they widened the lane and created 3 second rule, he was probably mad as hell, but he kept goin and still dominated... its a case of people not wanting to let go of the past, Starcraft:Brood Wars is the only video game i ever played alot, and is to me and many others in this world the undisputed best Game in the world (including board games card games etc but not futbol or basket). I dont want Brood Wars to change and it wont, because what is coming soon is not Starcraft 1 Brood Wars.. Its a new game and From what it looks like its hard to say whether or not Starcraft 2 will exceed or fail in comparison to the original, only time will tell. For now lets just have faith in Blizzard, and i hope they read this thread.. | ||
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Tal
United Kingdom1013 Posts
But...I'm still with radagast et al....I don't want to play the starcraft that Tasteless and you guys love. I have no desire to develop those mechanical skills on a computer game- I'd rather devote that time to playing guitar, and play computer games with more user friendly interfaces. Like Radagast I want to play a strategy game in real time, with the oppurtunity to act simultaneously to and decieve my opponent- engage in a battle of wills. The whole total focus of mechanical skills + brain just doesn't appeal to me- I'd rather just need 100apm to compete at top level, even if I know that won't happen. And to be honest, most gamers I talk to are on the same side. Its too much to have to devote so much time to mastering an interface- even for your favourite game. I've played games all my life, and I agree SC is the best RTS ever made. But with improvements to interface, it could be so much better by my (and other gamers standards). I don't want the same intense experience- I want a different one- focussed on planning and thinking (under pressure), instead of executing multiple commands under pressure of interface (and trying to think too). Hopefully starcraft 2 will have it. Just one question though- if they made starcraft 2 with the option to either play with a great super user-friendly interface (no unit select limit, select multiple buildings, sophisticated hot key system, even autobuild/ orders for troops like retreat on sighting enemy etc) or to play with a SC1 replica interface, would many of you really choose to play on the server with the old style interface? I guess tasteless would (and fair play to him), but what about the rest of you? | ||
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WiljushkA
Serbia1416 Posts
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