EPTMultiple Building Selection - Page 12
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Moutas
Greece158 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2638 Posts
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 13:44 DeA wrote: OMG how many times do we have to mention that StarCraft is a Real-Time Strategy game, and that elements such as macro should be a part of it. If you don't like that then stop ruining our game and play something more noob-friendly. Explain to me how having to select buildings individually make the game more strategic or more real time. Selecting buildings individually have NOTHING to do with the genre of RTS. For reference look at the last 5 RTS games released and you'll notice that all of them allow for unlimited selections. | ||
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gEzUS
Canada371 Posts
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pansy
United States309 Posts
On May 22 2007 13:51 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I think you should go read the protoss building thread to see how this problem could be solved from a different take. this thread: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53633 this doesn't really solve the problem since if you don't upgrade to warpgates, you can still have the multiple gateways selected and build with one button. plus with phase prisms you can set up a psionic matrix near your army and just call up reinforcements from warp gates without going back to your base. | ||
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Moutas
Greece158 Posts
I'm not saying that selecting buildings individually is RTS, I'm saying that MACRO is a basic part of the RTS games, which also includes selecting buildings in order to macro properly. The ability to select buildings individually is just a small part of the macro required in StarCraft. Playing RTS means that you will have complete control over your base and army so that you can do whatever you want. This isn't turn based where the player has no control over his macro and/or his micro, playing a game in real-time is all about those two key things. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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V_DrOp)Dietman
Canada24 Posts
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cxz4sho
United States132 Posts
In starcraft, there are relatively few built-in unit abilities and gaming "features" (i.e. gold upkeep, creeps). You get a caster or two for every race, and you have terrain that's inaccessible to certain units, but that's about it. This forced high-level players to seek an advantage by "abusing" the naunces of the game, i.e., macro/micro timing, unit speed, attack animation, details in the terrain like the size of a hill and its proximity to strategic points, and so on. War3, on the other hand, not only has more unit abilities and gaming features, but these features are also infinitely more powerful and accessible than ones in starcraft. Example of powerful unit abilities: this is an obvious one, hero abilities are anywhere from 50% to 90% of your game in war3, depeneding on the stage of the game and the matchup. Example of more accessible features: tab-casting, ability to rally to heros, but I'm sure you can come up with more. The good thing about this is that it adds not only visual "pizaz" to the game, but also gives the game the illusion of having a deeper level of gameplay to newcomers. Both of these things help sell games in the short-run and makes for a kick-ass single player campaign. War3, however, was destined to fail as a pro-gaming venue. Why? Lots of reasons, but I think the most fundamental problem is in the player-game dynamics. To put it plainly, starcraft is a seemingly simple game with enough versatility to allow players to exert their skill and even their personality (yay boxer, boo savior). The outcome of a match is determined by the player. Warcraft, on the other hand, is a game where the will of the game dominates over the will of the player, and the outcome of the match depends largely on the willingless of the player to submit to the will of the game. So, the entertainment value from starcraft derives from the individual wills and personalities of the community that drives it --- an endless pool of creativity and competitive energy, while the entertainment value from warcraft draws largely from the creativity and energy of only a select few (albeit VERY talented) game-makers from blizzard. Blizzard's role then, shifts from "basic-service-provider-and-PR-machine" in starcraft to "god" in war3, and it's not easy to be the big fella. Why did I post this in a starcraft 2 forum? My gut instinct from the gameplay vids so far tells me that these designers are exerting a little too much of their will on a game that's grown into a monster. Something much, much bigger than blizzard. Should you try to tame a 50-foot monster with a cupcake? Or should you nourish it and hope that, instead of slaughtering your whole village, it poops more golden eggs for you? The game developers at blizzard are not the only people responsible for what starcraft has become. Starcraft's success is due to a combination of a good basic product (props to the developers), good company reputation (props to the founders), impeccable timing (props to their PR department), and a lot luck (props to the boom in the computer industry, broadband internet, and most importantly, crazy south koreans). We can only hope that blizzard don't get too far ahead of themselves, or they might be faced with a decision to pull the plug on something much dearer to them than "warcraft adventures" or "Starcraft: Ghost". | ||
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Morzas
United States387 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32275 Posts
On May 22 2007 13:55 Zironic wrote: Explain to me how having to select buildings individually make the game more strategic or more real time. Selecting buildings individually have NOTHING to do with the genre of RTS. For reference look at the last 5 RTS games released and you'll notice that all of them allow for unlimited selections. And they all suck | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5446 Posts
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cxz4sho
United States132 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Never underestimate Blizzard. They will definately imply a lot of things into SC2 to keep you busy Macro & Micro. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 22 2007 12:20 FrozenArbiter wrote: Ermm, I probably just haven't made myself precise. Many people re-rally their production facilities once or twice (or even, say 5 times) per game. What I was talking about is constantly setting rally points to the vital places. What we see is that someone sets a giant rally point for all his gates, then takes the units from there and sends into battle. Rallying that massively (10+ buildings) takes time because it involves very much mouse movement and a very steady hand to click on the minimap correctly. There's another way to rally (F2 for gates, F3 for rally point, F2-click-F3-click etc), but that requires you to overwrite your F-keys whenever you want to set a new rally point and they are quite precious.IMO you should be able to mass select buildings in order to set rally point - I am still undecided/waiting for blizzard information as to wether I think building from several buildings at once is good or not. Btw, I'm not a pro and I always re-rally my gateways (actually I frequently forgot to, obsers often complain when I have 50 units standing by my gates/running somewhere cause I forget to change the rally point lol). But I still change the rally a lot just I'm very forgetful ;d | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5446 Posts
That game was so great... too bad it never really took off (to my knowledge) | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5095 Posts
1) Starcraft 2 CHOBO 2) Starcraft 2 GOSU in the first version you have everything like auto-cast spells, multiple building selection, rallied workers automine, upkeep etc. then in the second version you keep everything badass. problem solved! kinda like diablo where there was a hardcore option where you'd really die after you got killed and start over, it was for the really hardcore players. everybody wins! | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
On May 21 2007 16:33 Zironic wrote: What exactly about making the game more friendly to beginners is a bad thing? Don't we all want Starcraft 2 to become the best and most popular game ever created? From page 1... By noob friendly, i mean that makes the difference between a beginner and a skilled player smaller. The skill level won't be as varied and this goes along with things like auto-spell casting and mass unit selection. I don't think this will make the game less popular, but honestly i wouldn't care if it does. So what if the game is the best selling ever when most of the people who buy it won't play competitively. And its not like they can't still enjoy the game. | ||
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cxz4sho
United States132 Posts
On May 22 2007 23:16 pyrogenetix wrote: lol all this talk makes me rethink what someone proposed a few months back... was it hot-bid? anyway it was that they make TWO versions of starcraft 2. 1) Starcraft 2 CHOBO 2) Starcraft 2 GOSU in the first version you have everything like auto-cast spells, multiple building selection, rallied workers automine, upkeep etc. then in the second version you keep everything badass. problem solved! kinda like diablo where there was a hardcore option where you'd really die after you got killed and start over, it was for the really hardcore players. everybody wins! QFT. | ||
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